Is Confession To Authority Necessary For Forgiveness?

[MiserereNobis]

Hello,

In another thread, Tony Frank and I have been going back and forth over confession. He has been arguing that in the LDS church, confession to priesthood authority is not necessary for forgiveness, even for sins like fornication and adultery.  That seems to fly in the face of what I understand about the LDS church, but he may be making an nuanced argument that I, as a non-Mormon, am not understanding.
 
I thought I'd move the topic to its own thread so that others could weigh in on it.
 
Here's the last thing that Tony Frank said:
 

God uses a legal priesthood administrator to "administer" the "laws" of His Church, hence, the word "legal." He does not use a legal priesthood administrator when forgiving sins.
 
Going to a priesthood authority to confess adultery or fornication is Church POLICY and, as I stated earlier, it concerns Church discipline and one’s standing in the Church, which only a legal priesthood administrator can address. Spencer W. Kimball never said the Lord can never forgive you unless you confess to a priesthood authority.

 

Can someone be forgiven of something like fornication or adultery without confessing to a bishop or stake president?

 

If it is just church policy to confess those sins, then that policy could be changed, right?

 

Thanks for the insight.

 

[MiserereNobis]

In thinking about what Tony said, that confession is about church policy and membership, but not forgiveness, it occurred to me that someone could be totally forgiven by God but then go to a disciplinary council and be excommunicated.  Is that possible?  Or, the other way around.  Go to a disciplinary council, be "cleared of the charges" so to speak, and yet not be forgiven by God.

[HappyJackWagon]

IMO- a person should confess when they need assistance in their repentance process. I don't recall seeing a list of requirements for when and for what someone must confess to a leader. It's very personal. Frankly I think people would confess to ecclesiastical leaders more often to get help in their repentance process IF they were not fearful of the punishment that could ensue when a bishop places restrictions on their participation or holds a disciplinary council. Those tools are often used as an aid but sometimes are a hinderance to a person's personal repentance process.

 

So again, I reiterate that it is personal. Confession to a leader may be helpful at times but usually isn't necessary.

[JAHS]

"By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them." (D&C 58: 43)

 

Confession to a Bishop is important for certain sins so that the repentence process can be effective and complete. He can tell a person certain things that should do or not do to help in forsaking the sin to obtain forgivness, which might include some form of discipline for more serious sins. For example, regarding the Sacrament:

 

"And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;" (3 Nephi 18: 28)

 

"Repentance requires that all sins be confessed to the Lord. Members also should confess to their presiding officer if they have committed serious transgressions. Members who voluntarily and completely confess transgressions demonstrate that they have begun the process of repentance." (from the CHI)

Edited November 10, 2015 by JAHS

[mfbukowski]

In thinking about what Tony said, that confession is about church policy and membership, but not forgiveness, it occurred to me that someone could be totally forgiven by God but then go to a disciplinary council and be excommunicated.  Is that possible?  Or, the other way around.  Go to a disciplinary council, be "cleared of the charges" so to speak, and yet not be forgiven by God.

God's forgiveness is unknowable and infinite.

 

If we have repented of our sins, the church teaches us that they are forgiven through the atonement.  Gone.  It is said that God "forgets" them. (not literally obviously)

 

Church councils can only know what humans can know, which is that the person has sinned.  This is pretty much only known through confession- how else is one to know about fornication or adultery under usual circumstances?

 

The council process is actually part of the road back therefore.  As Tony correctly says, it is more of an administrative proceedure in most cases.

 

In my experience excommunication only happens in cases of huge sins which have caused ripples in the community.  In one case a leader was found to have had inappropriate contact with a youth and everyone knew about it but the bishop.   In such a case after confession, the person was excommunicated by a stake council since he was a Melchizadek priesthood holder.  But even the excommunication was seen as a way back for him into the church.  These events are handled quietly but practically speaking in such a case at least 15 men in the stake know about it as well as the individual himself and his wife.  The word gets out

 

In many cases that is actually healing for the community.  "Oh yes, well you know he did such and so- but now I hope he can come back and get his blessings restored"

 

So after he performs his "penance" which will take probably at least a year, he will be eligible to have his blessings restored.  During that time he will come to church and theoretically no one will know.

 

So yes, these formal procedures are administrative and regard his membership.  We know that God forgives, but that is between the individual and his maker

 

There is just a tiny epistemological problem there in knowing how God feels about it. 

[mfbukowski]

IMO- a person should confess when they need assistance in their repentance process. I don't recall seeing a list of requirements for when and for what someone must confess to a leader. It's very personal. Frankly I think people would confess to ecclesiastical leaders more often to get help in their repentance process IF they were not fearful of the punishment that could ensue when a bishop places restrictions on their participation or holds a disciplinary council. Those tools are often used as an aid but sometimes are a hinderance to a person's personal repentance process.

 

So again, I reiterate that it is personal. Confession to a leader may be helpful at times but usually isn't necessary.

Yep.  The only time it is necessary is when the sin is of a magnitude that it would affect one's membership were it known

 

Crimes are one example, abortion, adultery and fornication, homosexuality, murder obviously, child abuse- the "biggies"

[mfbukowski]

There are four levels of discipline-  informal probation, which is between the bishop and the person and God- by far the most common

 

This is closest to the Catholic model, where the person confesses to the bishop and the bishop sets up some goal posts- refraining from the sacrament (or not- sometimes the person can be advised that he MUST take the sacrament) attending church, making restitution etc.  Similar to "penance"

 

Formal probation- probably second most common- where a bishop holds a council and the council decides for probation which then becomes like the informal probation, and the person has regular visits with the bishop.  The council then could be re-convened and the person taken off probation

 

Disfellowshipment is the next level- a formal change in membership status, but not excommunication, and then finally of course excommunication

 

Just as these are in order of severity of consequences, they are also in order of which happen most often

Edited November 10, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I saw Cal's quote on the other thread from a GA.

 

I am not saying the GA was wrong.  I think there are nuances to "complete forgiveness" which are maybe tautological.  So yes, if you believe as I do that this is God's church on the earth and that God's church has the power to "forgive and retain" sins as mentioned in D&C and the NT then earthly administration is part of "complete forgiveness".

 

In other words, I affirm the authority of the church to "forgive and retain" sins.

 

On the other hand even Catholics acknowledge that the priest "forgives" sin as God's representative- through the atonement.  The priest is a proxy for Christ.

 

So it is a nuanced view not captured fully in saying that one cannot get "full forgiveness" without confession.

 

I have told the story before about someone who came to me when I was a bishop with something that had happened 20 years ago and had never been confessed, nor had the event been repeated.  It was fornication. The person had anguished over it for 20 years telling no one.

 

I was positive that through repentance and the torture experienced in the soul of that person that God had forgiven the sin long ago.

 

It was clear to me that the confession really didn't amount to a hill of beans in the forgiveness process EXCEPT for the person to make the step and do it.  It was completely pragmatic.  The person thought it was necessary, so for that person it was.  That was what was necessary for the person to FEEL "forgiven".

 

So I counseled that it was gone and forgotten and get on with life and stop the guilt and self- condemnation, yet for the person it was the confession that forgave the sin.  For me, it was the repentance and sorrow.

 

Again, the unspeakable.

 

So define it any way you want!!

Edited November 10, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Avatar4321]

Is God an authority?

[JAHS]

Is God an authority?

He is the #1 authority, but others might need to be included.

[Avatar4321]

I agree. I just find it odd that people might think a confession to an authority is unnecessary when God is by definition an authority.

And any latter day saint who doesn't think confession before authorities is sometimes necessary should re-read Mosiah 26

[Kevin Christensen]

There is a lot of concern about the shame involved in having to confess, but when done in the proper way, the experience can be remarkably healing. Indeed, the effect of confession in a recovery context can have a profound effect in reducing shame, and healing people on both sides of the experience.  Try reading Healing the Shame that Binds You, by Bradshaw, for example.   Bradshaw distinguishes between toxic shame, with which a person feels defective, with healthy shame, with which a person recognizes their flawed humanity and their need for boundaries.  Bradshaw even asserts that healthy shame should be the foundation of a person's spirituality.

 

Shame is experienced when a person is exposed when they are not prepared.  The fear of exposure, and the feeling a person has that if someone else really knew me, they would reject me.  Secrecy and shame is an integral part of addictive systems.  Disclosing to an enabler, say, a junkie asking for a fix, or an alcoholic buying a drink, or a person confiding to an extramartial lover, is not at all the same thing as confession.  Confession is facing the paralyzing fear of exposure, and the healing that happens when the person is not rejected, and the secrets are out often profoundly changes a person.

 

Patrick Carnes observes a pattern in world mythology that heroes face their fears and villains nurture their grievances.  (Think of that as the difference between Loki and Thor, or Harry Potter and Voldemort.)  Confession can be a turning point of the hero's journey. 

 

FWIW

 

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Tony Frank]

I saw Cal's quote on the other thread from a GA.

 

I am not saying the GA was wrong . . .

 

 

Calm’s quote is from J. Richard Clarke, Second Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric, at the November 1980 General Conference, and it reads:

 

Confession is a necessary requirement for complete forgiveness. It is an indication of true “godly sorrow.” It is part of the cleansing process—the starting anew requires a clean page in the diary of our conscience. Confession should be made to the appropriate person who has been wronged by us and to the Lord also. In addition, the nature of our transgression may be serious enough to require confession to a legal priesthood administrator.

 

Those transgressions requiring confession to a bishop are adultery, fornication, other sexual transgressions and deviancies, and sins of a comparable seriousness. President Kimball reminds us that “one must not compromise or equivocate—he must make a full confession. (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 170)

 

 

To put it into perspective, which MiserereNobis noted in his OP, I wrote that God uses a legal priesthood administrator to "administer" the "laws" of His Church, hence, the word "legal." He does not use a legal priesthood administrator when forgiving sins.

 

I also stated that going to a priesthood authority to confess adultery or fornication is Church POLICY and concerns Church discipline and one’s standing in the Church, which only a legal priesthood administrator can address. Spencer W. Kimball never said the Lord can never forgive you unless you confess to a priesthood authority.

 

I also posted the following scriptures regarding the doctrine of Jesus Christ on forgiveness of sins of any kind.

 

In a revelation through the Prophet Joseph Smith in April 1829, Jesus Christ said, “Say nothing but repentance unto this generation; keep my commandments, and assist to bring forth my work, according to my commandments, and you shall be blessed” (D&C 6:9).

 

In June 1829, Jesus Christ said, “And now, behold, I say unto you, that the thing which will be of the most worth unto you will be to declare repentance unto this people that you may bring souls unto me that you may rest with them in the kingdom of my Father” (D&C 15:6).

 

In a revelation through the Prophet Joseph Smith on August 1, 1831, Jesus Christ said, “Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more” (D&C 58:42).

 

On August 12, 1831, Jesus Christ said, “I, the Lord, forgive sins, and am merciful unto those who confess their sins with humble hearts” (D&C 61:2).

 

In a revelation through the Prophet Joseph Smith in September 1831, Jesus Christ said, “I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness” (D&C 64:7).

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith, the 10^th prophet to lead the Church, said, “There was no man ever born into this world that could have stood under the weight of the load that was upon the Son of God when he was carrying my sins and yours and making it possible that we might escape from our sins.”

 

About 550 years before Christ was born, we read in the Book of Mormon that a prophet of God said, “And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them” (Mosiah 3:13).

 

400 years later, another prophet of God said, “Behold, I say unto you that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God” (Mosiah 15:11).

 

Between the time of His crucifixion and His resurrection, Jesus Christ spoke to the inhabitants on the American continent and said, “Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved” (3 Nephi 9:22).

[MiserereNobis]

There is a lot of concern about the shame involved in having to confess, but when done in the proper way, the experience can be remarkably healing. Indeed, the effect of confession in a recovery context can have a profound effect in reducing shame, and healing people on both sides of the experience.  Try reading Healing the Shame that Binds You, by Bradshaw, for example.   Bradshaw distinguishes between toxic shame, with which a person feels defective, with healthy shame, with which a person recognizes their flawed humanity and their need for boundaries.  Bradshaw even asserts that healthy shame should be the foundation of a person's spirituality.

 

Shame is experienced when a person is exposed when they are not prepared.  The fear of exposure, and the feeling a person has that if someone else really knew me, they would reject me.  Secrecy and shame is an integral part of addictive systems.  Disclosing to an enabler, say, a junkie asking for a fix, or an alcoholic buying a drink, or a person confiding to an extramartial lover, is not at all the same thing as confession.  Confession is facing the paralyzing fear of exposure, and the healing that happens when the person is not rejected, and the secrets are out often profoundly changes a person.

 

Patrick Carnes observes a pattern in world mythology that heroes face their fears and villains nurture their grievances.  (Think of that as the difference between Loki and Thor, or Harry Potter and Voldemort.)  Confession can be a turning point of the hero's journey. 

 

FWIW

 

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

Well said.  My experience of confession is not only a spiritual cleansing, but also a psychological one.  It allows me to move forward past mistakes.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Confessing to my Bishop years of built up sins that were weighing on my mind for a long time was one of the most liberating experiences I ever encountered. Maybe I was lucky that I had a very loving and caring Bishop, but I felt such relief after officially confessing all my transgressions to the Bishop. That and the priesthood blessing he gave me after helped me emotionally move on in my life.

[thatjimguy]

"By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them." (D&C 58: 43)

 

 

This scripture doesn't talk about talking to a church authority. This could simply be about taking the second step to repentance, Confessing to God. I'm not saying this or that about the confessing to the Bishop thing, just clarifying the use of the scripture here.

[JAHS]

This scripture doesn't talk about talking to a church authority. This could simply be about taking the second step to repentance, Confessing to God. I'm not saying this or that about the confessing to the Bishop thing, just clarifying the use of the scripture here.

Later in that section it says:

 

"Let that which has been bestowed upon Ziba Peterson be taken from him; and let him stand as a member in the church, and labor with his own hands, with the brethren, until he is sufficiently chastened for all his sins; for he confesseth them not, and he thinketh to hide them."

 

This seems to confirm that it's not just confession to God but to others as well. Or should we assume that God revealed to Joseph that Ziba did not confess to God?

[Damien the Leper]

No. That's just trivial and menial politics.

[Avatar4321]

Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.

29 Therefore I say unto you, Go; and whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye judge according to the sins which he has committed; and if he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall ye forgive, and I will forgive him also.

30 Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me.

31 And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his neighbor’s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation.

32 Now I say unto you, Go; and whosoever will not repent of his sins the same shall not be numbered among my people; and this shall be observed from this time forward. (Mosiah 26:28-32)

Here we have the Lord clearly instructing us to confess before a legal administrator (Alma) before we will receive forgiveness. Otherwise we can be removed from being numbered among the Church.

And who was Alma? He was the presiding High Priest. So logically we should be confessing to our presiding High Priest. And who is that? In the ward, our Bishop. In the stake, Our Stake President.

Whitehouse we hesitate to confess our sins freely to the Bishop or stake president? The scriptures say that to know we have truly repented of our sins, we will confess them and forsake them. So if we want to repent why should we hesitate to confess before God and men?

If we are clean before God why does it matter if men know? Should we not humble ourselves and do as the Lord asks?

[Duncan]

Here we have the Lord clearly instructing us to confess before a legal administrator (Alma) before we will receive forgiveness. Otherwise we can be removed from being numbered among the Church.

And who was Alma? He was the presiding High Priest. So logically we should be confessing to our presiding High Priest. And who is that? In the ward, our Bishop. In the stake, Our Stake President.

Whitehouse we hesitate to confess our sins freely to the Bishop or stake president? The scriptures say that to know we have truly repented of our sins, we will confess them and forsake them. So if we want to repent why should we hesitate to confess before God and men?

If we are clean before God why does it matter if men know? Should we not humble ourselves and do as the Lord asks?

 

only sins that affect our standing in the Church, other wise we can get into a mess with Bishops. I had two such Bishops who wanted to know every detail. Now I never see the Bishop for anything because I don't do anything that affects my standing in the Church but I learned that lesson the hard way.

[thatjimguy]

Later in that section it says:

 

"Let that which has been bestowed upon Ziba Peterson be taken from him; and let him stand as a member in the church, and labor with his own hands, with the brethren, until he is sufficiently chastened for all his sins; for he confesseth them not, and he thinketh to hide them."

 

This seems to confirm that it's not just confession to God but to others as well. Or should we assume that God revealed to Joseph that Ziba did not confess to God?

 

There is nothing there that supports that. It doesn't say "confesseth not to priesthood authority, just that he did not confess.

 

Yeah, at least to this specific scripture, I think it is God talking through Joseph here. (Isn't that normally the case when Joseph talked in the D&C? though?)

Edited November 11, 2015 by thatjimguy

[Avatar4321]

only sins that affect our standing in the Church, other wise we can get into a mess with Bishops. I had two such Bishops who wanted to know every detail. Now I never see the Bishop for anything because I don't do anything that affects my standing in the Church but I learned that lesson the hard way.

I think that goes without saying we are not required to confess everything to the Bishop. But the scriptures are clear that we are required to confess things that affect Church standing. So why shouldn't we do so, clear things up, and move on with our lives?

[sunstoned]

He is the #1 authority, but others might need to be included.

I disagree.  The scriptures are clear.  You confess to God and make amends to the ones you have transgressed against.  

[JAHS]

I disagree.  The scriptures are clear.  You confess to God and make amends to the ones you have transgressed against.  

I am assuming you don't include the Book of Mormon in those scriptures?

 

Alma was told by God with regards to one who wants to repent of sins:

 

"If he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall we forgive, and I will forgive him also"  (Mosiah 26: 29)

 

People were to confess their sins to Alma who was their spiritual leader and to God. 

 

We also of course need to confess our sins to the person we wronged.

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another" (James 5:16).

Edited November 23, 2015 by JAHS

[Avatar4321]

I disagree.  The scriptures are clear.  You confess to God and make amends to the ones you have transgressed against.

The scriptures I cited said otherwise