ERayR Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 Hello,In another thread, Tony Frank and I have been going back and forth over confession. He has been arguing that in the LDS church, confession to priesthood authority is not necessary for forgiveness, even for sins like fornication and adultery. That seems to fly in the face of what I understand about the LDS church, but he may be making an nuanced argument that I, as a non-Mormon, am not understanding. I thought I'd move the topic to its own thread so that others could weigh in on it. Here's the last thing that Tony Frank said: Can someone be forgiven of something like fornication or adultery without confessing to a bishop or stake president? If it is just church policy to confess those sins, then that policy could be changed, right? Thanks for the insight. Let me throw in a Brigham Young perspective.http://jod.mrm.org/8/361 ". . .If you have sinned against your Ward, confess to your Ward. If you have sinned against one individual, take that person by yourselves and make your confession to him. And if you have sinned against your God, or against yourselves, confess to God, and keep the matter to yourselves, for I do not want to know anything about it.". It is my understanding that there are some sins that after repenting and confessing to those who have been wronged and in the case of sinning against God one can and should confess to the bishop and he has the authority to officially forgive sins after the repentance process. 1
Jeanne Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) I went to my bishop with a confession and to talk about things as I was newly returning to activity. I loved this Bishop and we were friends at work before he became Bishop. Lo and behold..his wife let me know that she was aware of my confession..and I had the eerie feeling that alot of RS friends were also suddenly aware..I couldn't shake the pity looks..and it took a damaging affect on my tender faith at that time. Trust was a big issue. Edited November 23, 2015 by Jeanne
JAHS Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 Let me throw in a Brigham Young perspective.http://jod.mrm.org/8/361 ". . .If you have sinned against your Ward, confess to your Ward. If you have sinned against one individual, take that person by yourselves and make your confession to him. And if you have sinned against your God, or against yourselves, confess to God, and keep the matter to yourselves, for I do not want to know anything about it.". It is my understanding that there are some sins that after repenting and confessing to those who have been wronged and in the case of sinning against God one can and should confess to the bishop and he has the authority to officially forgive sins after the repentance process. No, the Bishop does not forgive sins. Only God can do that. The Bishop might be able to help you know when your sins have been forgiven.
ERayR Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 I went to my bishop with a confession and to talk about things as I was newly returning to activity. I loved this Bishop and we were friends at work before he became Bishop. Lo and behold..his wife let me know that she was aware of my confession..and I had the eerie feeling that alot of RS friends were also suddenly aware..I couldn't shake the pity looks..and it took a damaging affect on my tender faith at that time. Trust was a big issue. Oh my I pity the bishop for not keeping his vow of confidentiality. Once it is broken repentance (restitution) would be nearly impossible.
ERayR Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 No, the Bishop does not forgive sins. Only God can do that. The Bishop might be able to help you know when your sins have been forgiven. I confess to wording my post poorly. You have done it better.
hagoth7 Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 I went to my bishop with a confession and to talk about things as I was newly returning to activity. I loved this Bishop and we were friends at work before he became Bishop. Lo and behold..his wife let me know that she was aware of my confession..and I had the eerie feeling that alot of RS friends were also suddenly aware..I couldn't shake the pity looks..and it took a damaging affect on my tender faith at that time. Trust was a big issue.Yikes. Very sorry to hear it.
JAHS Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 I confess to wording my post poorly. You have done it better.I guess Bishops can forgive sins in the sense that they forgive them as far as the Church is concerned. 1
ERayR Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 I guess Bishops can forgive sins in the sense that they forgive them as far as the Church is concerned. Bishops are "Judges in Israel".
Thinking Posted November 24, 2015 Posted November 24, 2015 This is a sensitive subject because leaders are fallible and, as Jeanne found out, may not honor the confidentiality of the confession. The forgiveness of the sin is also a gray area. My sister's husband was unfaithful for a number of years and after he confessed acted like the confession fixed everything (kind of like he had just fixed a broken sprinkler head). He was too quick to forgive himself and criticized my sister for not forgiving him immediately. I think others may be too slow to forgive themselves and may even confess sins that don't need confession. 2
Tony Frank Posted November 24, 2015 Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) Let me throw in a Brigham Young perspective.http://jod.mrm.org/8/361 ". . .If you have sinned against your Ward, confess to your Ward. If you have sinned against one individual, take that person by yourselves and make your confession to him. And if you have sinned against your God, or against yourselves, confess to God, and keep the matter to yourselves, for I do not want to know anything about it.". It is my understanding that there are some sins that after repenting and confessing to those who have been wronged and in the case of sinning against God one can and should confess to the bishop and he has the authority to officially forgive sins after the repentance process. Neither a bishop nor any other Church authority can forgive sins. Jesus Christ never authorized any of them to forgive sins, and your claim that a bishop "has the authority to officially forgive sins after the repentance process" is found nowhere in the doctrine of the Church. Edited November 24, 2015 by Tony Frank
HappyJackWagon Posted November 24, 2015 Posted November 24, 2015 sunstoned, on 22 Nov 2015 - 8:30 PM, said:I disagree. The scriptures are clear. You confess to God and make amends to the ones you have transgressed against.Avatar4321- The scriptures I cited said otherwise Do you mean to say that the scriptures aren't always consistent? Mind BLOWN!
cinepro Posted November 24, 2015 Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) If it is just church policy to confess those sins, then that policy could be changed, right? Thanks for the insight. I believe that current policy is that major sins should be confessed to your Bishop, and minor sins should be confessed on Facebook. Edited November 24, 2015 by cinepro 2
JAHS Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Neither a bishop nor any other Church authority can forgive sins. Jesus Christ never authorized any of them to forgive sins, and your claim that a bishop "has the authority to officially forgive sins after the repentance process" is found nowhere in the doctrine of the Church. You are right except as I suggested in another post the Bishop can forgive so far as the church is concerned: "It should be clear that bishops and other church officers, when confessions are made to them, do not forgive sins except in the sense that they forgive them as far as the Church is concerned; they remit any penalty which the Church on earth might impose; they adjudge that repentant persons are worthy of full fellowship in the earthly kingdom." (Bruce R. McConkie) "The other forgiveness (by the Church), is obtained through your ecclesiastical leader the bishop, stake president, mission president or General Authority who has the authority to waive penalties..... But if the ecclesiastical officer is convinced of total and sustained repentance he may waive that penalty-which may be termed a forgiveness in that sense. Simultaneously, the transgressor should begin his petitions to the Lord for a final forgiveness." (Spencer W. Kimball) Edited November 25, 2015 by JAHS 1
Tony Frank Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) You are right except as I suggested in another post the Bishop can forgive so far as the church is concerned: "It should be clear that bishops and other church officers, when confessions are made to them, do not forgive sins except in the sense that they forgive them as far as the Church is concerned; they remit any penalty which the Church on earth might impose; they adjudge that repentant persons are worthy of full fellowship in the earthly kingdom." (Bruce R. McConkie) "The other forgiveness (by the Church), is obtained through your ecclesiastical leader the bishop, stake president, mission president or General Authority who has the authority to waive penalties..... But if the ecclesiastical officer is convinced of total and sustained repentance he may waive that penalty-which may be termed a forgiveness in that sense. Simultaneously, the transgressor should begin his petitions to the Lord for a final forgiveness." (Spencer W. Kimball) Yes, anyone can forgive someone else. We are each commanded to forgive anyone who trespasses against us. As Jesus Christ stated in Doctrine and Covenants 64:9, "Wherefore, I say unto you that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin." Church authorities from a bishop to a General Authority can forgive someone on behalf of the Church, but that is as far as the forgiveness goes. Edited November 26, 2015 by Tony Frank
Avatar4321 Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 Do you mean to say that the scriptures aren't always consistent? Mind BLOWN! No I'm suggesting I've provided scriptures, along with several other people, that says confession before authorities is sometimes necessary. Others have claimed the scriptures say otherwise, but no one has managed to provide these verses or explain away the ones we've cited.Till they do there is no reason to declare the scriptures inconsistent.
Damien the Leper Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 Bishops are "Judges in Israel".This is not to be confused with Jacob or the Jews who are called Israel. They are not the same and have no association with each other.
mfbukowski Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 Bishops are "Judges in Israel".I know. That commute was a killer.
Tony Frank Posted November 27, 2015 Posted November 27, 2015 No I'm suggesting I've provided scriptures, along with several other people, that says confession before authorities is sometimes necessary. Others have claimed the scriptures say otherwise, but no one has managed to provide these verses or explain away the ones we've cited.Till they do there is no reason to declare the scriptures inconsistent. I looked through this thread and did not see any scriptures in your posts. How about reposting the scriptures that allegedly say "confession before authorities is sometimes necessary."
Recommended Posts