Your Virtue Is Worth More Than Your Life.

[filovirus]

I just thought this was relevant to the thread. This is a link to the story of Brooke Wilberger, an LDS teenager who was abducted while visiting her sister at Oregon State University. It made national news at the time it happened. It's interesting why her abductor decided to kill her:

 

"In his "romanticized account of what happened," Courtney hadn't decided to kill her until he saw how hard she fought against being raped, Haroldson said, and then he hid her body in such a way that it was unlikely it would ever have been found".

 

Here is the link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/remains-brooke-wilberger-found-years-disappearance/story?id=8632233

[Thinking]

The people who most frequently quote Spencer Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness passages on fighting for one's chastity are pot stirrers and Bishops over 80 years of age.

 

On my mission (Peru, 1982-1984) my companion and I were talking to the local bishop and he happened to be talking about the law of chastity. He told us that he told all his daughters that he would rather have them come home dead than come home alive and defiled. I wonder where he picked up that idea?

 

I've heard most of the analogies - licked cupcake, plucked rose petals...I think it's sadly ironic that some would rather their child be murdered than commit the sin second to murder.

[Danzo]

I think your interpretation is reading far more into his words than what he said.

 

"Most often, the victim is innocent" implies that sometimes the victim is not innocent.

 

"the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Your priesthood leader will help assess your responsibility" -  He is clearly stating that in some situations the victim bears some guilt that must be forgiven.

 

If you believe that all victims are innocent, then I have a bridge to sell you.

[Guest]

" A parent saying they would rather their missionary son come home in a box rather than unclean, is just an expression of how horrible it woud be if their son were to commit sin while on a mission; not that they really want him to die instead."

Unfortunately if this is true, their kids may not just interpret it as an expression.

You are correct (of course you don't need me to know that)...as parents of grandparents we say things like this often to impress upon those we love how important are. Sometimes we fail to understand how our children or grandchildren understand our comments with their limited years. Not withstanding, there are times when comments such as these do convey the serious nature of what can happen if certain moral codes are not obeyed. I remember once grabbing my son at 19 holding him tightly and saying, "you have to go now, as much as I love you I cannot go where you are going". I said this literally and metaphorically, but assured him that I would be ready when he wants to come home. He went through so tough times, but tells me that this was the turning point in his life. But all need to use wisdom and inspiration to know what to say to those so young, and any who are in a fragile state...for only God knows what others feel or need to hear.

May God bless us all to know when and what to say.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Lee

[Thinking]

If you believe that all victims are innocent, then I have a bridge to sell you.

 

Nobody's innocent, but that doesn't mean that the victim must bear some of the burden of guilt.

 

A woman has an affair. Her husband finds out and kills her. Is she responsible for his actions, even partially? My opinion is NO!

Although she was guilty of adultery, he was not justified at all for taking her life. He could have divorced her, or *gasp* forgiven her and tried to reconcile the relationship.

[Danzo]

......actually, it's not terrible advice in my OP. I wouldn't give this quote straight up to a person who is initially getting out of an abusive situation. But noting personal patterns/behaviors that maintained abusive situations  (particularly ones that are long term or with a partner) can help break the chains of further abuse in relationships to come. I say I wouldn't give this advise in the beginning because many abuse victims would latch on to the idea that they are guilty and would distort their fault in it, though Richards was very adamant about noting that most likely you had little to no responsibility for the abuse. So I think he could have worded it differently and more carefully (in a way similar to what Cal noted). But the advice isn't blatantly atrocious as the ones in the quotes from the 60's.

 

With luv,

BD

 

When people tell a victim that there was nothing they could do different.  And nothing they can do different, then, in my opinion they are just enabling the abuse.

 

I remember a coworker once who came to work every day looking like she had been in a boxing match.

 

She may not have been able to fend him off physically, but she didn't have to keep coming home to him.

[Danzo]

Nobody's innocent, but that doesn't mean that the victim must bear some of the burden of guilt.

 

A woman has an affair. Her husband finds out and kills her. Is she responsible for his actions, even partially? My opinion is NO!

Although she was guilty of adultery, he was not justified at all for taking her life. He could have divorced her, or *gasp* forgiven her and tried to reconcile the relationship.

 

She was guilty of adultery, he was guilty of murder, there is guilt to go around.

 

If you give all of the responsibly  to some one else, you give up your control of the situation as well.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Danzo

[jkwilliams]

She was guilty of adultery, he was guilty of murder, there is guilt to go around.

If you give all of the responsibly to some one else, you give up your control of the situation as well.

Rape victims usually don't have much control of the situation.

[Calm]

You are correct (of course you don't need me to know that)...as parents of grandparents we say things like this often to impress upon those we love how important are. Sometimes we fail to understand how our children or grandchildren understand our comments with their limited years. 

I have tried hard to be conscious of what my words could be taken as ever since my son was two or so and refused to hold hands because he thought his arms would "pop off" like a toy he had.  Took several days iirc to finally convince him to tell us why he was so frightened to hold our hands and then a bit longer to convince him he wasn't built the same way.

 

I realized then in my gut as I had years earlier intellectually as a psych student that kids think very differently than adults imagine they do.  I started looking back and seeing how I had interpreted what my mom had told me in negative ways when she saw them as positives (for example, she still tells me how she went into her closet literally to pray I would be a healthy baby while my dad and grandparents went out and celebrated I was going to be a miscarriage because I would be the third baby born in 4 years adn they didn't think Mom's health could handle it...she sees it as focusing on the first part of me being wanted, I grew up thinking of how my dad didn't want me to be born...I've never told her how it feels to me because it is such an important part of her narrative about our relationship).  Even when they get to be young adults, their minds operate differently than full adults and still approach life in very concrete terms.

 

I am always wondering what I've done to screw up my kids with all my good intentions.

[Danzo]

Rape victims usually don't have much control of the situation.

 

I think this attitude contributes to a lot of rapes.

 

Individual cases may vary, but most rape occurs with people who know each other.

 

There are many ways to protect oneself (not going off alone, avoid alcohol, avoid certain parts of town, be careful who you hang out with)

 

I constantly talk to my daughters one ways they can "control the situation".  Telling them they "don't have much control of the situation", is like telling them to put their head in the sand.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Danzo

[Danzo]

I have tried hard to be conscious of what my words could be taken as ever since my son was two or so and refused to hold hands because he thought his arms would "pop off" like a toy he had.  Took several days iirc to finally convince him to tell us why he was so frightened to hold our hands and then a bit longer to convince him he wasn't built the same way.

 

I realized then in my gut as I had years earlier intellectually as a psych student that kids think very differently than adults imagine they do.  I started looking back and seeing how I had interpreted what my mom had told me in negative ways when she saw them as positives (for example, she still tells me how she went into her closet literally to pray I would be a healthy baby while my dad and grandparents went out and celebrated I was going to be a miscarriage because I would be the third baby born in 4 years adn they didn't think Mom's health could handle it...she sees it as focusing on the first part of me being wanted, I grew up thinking of how my dad didn't want me to be born...I've never told her how it feels to me because it is such an important part of her narrative about our relationship).  Even when they get to be young adults, their minds operate differently than full adults and still approach life in very concrete terms.

 

I am always wondering what I've done to screw up my kids with all my good intentions.

 

Communication is always tricky, even in the best of situations.  

[CA Steve]

I think this statement contributes to a lot of rapes.

 

Individual cases may vary, but most rape occurs with people who know each other.

 

There are many ways to protect oneself (not going off alone, avoid alcohol, avoid certain parts of town, be careful who you hang out with)

 

I constantly talk to my daughters one ways they can "control the situation".  Telling them they "don't have much control of the situation", is like telling them to put their head in the sand.

I think you're confusing the events that lead up to the rape with the rape itself.

 

Clearly there are ways to avoid getting into a dangerous situation. The point being made is once the attack has started, the victim has very little, if any, control.

Edited October 26, 2015 by CA Steve

[Meadowchik]

It seems like these quotes about protecting chastity at all costs, including rape, are still taught today. The YW value "Virtue" refers to Moroni 9:9 which indicates that rape by milirary conquest is a way to lose chastity and virtue, "which is most dear and precious above all things." Could it be construed that resistance or willingness is not a factor when it comes to chastity but that chastity is only a physical state to preserve?

I dunno, I think that, in order to claim rape is a crime, we must acknowledge something has been taken.

Indeed, rape takes away choice at the very least, but can also do many other things to the victim. To take away her self-determinstion, her power, IS stealing something.

I'd hate to see the insistance that rape doesn't take something result in diminishing the criminality of the act.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Meadowchik

[Danzo]

I think you're confusing the events that lead up to the rape with the rape itself.

 

Clearly there are ways to avoid getting into a dangerous situation. The point being made is once the attack has started, the victim has very little, if any, control.

 

how much control one has depends on the situation,  but making blanket statements that no one has any control or responsibility over their situation are not very helpful. 

 

I have seen too many situations where are person is the victim over and over again and thinks they have no control over it.

[Guest]

I have tried hard to be conscious of what my words could be taken as ever since my son was two or so and refused to hold hands because he thought his arms would "pop off" like a toy he had. Took several days iirc to finally convince him to tell us why he was so frightened to hold our hands and then a bit longer to convince him he wasn't built the same way.

I realized then in my gut as I had years earlier intellectually as a psych student that kids think very differently than adults imagine they do. I started looking back and seeing how I had interpreted what my mom had told me in negative ways when she saw them as positives (for example, she still tells me how she went into her closet literally to pray I would be a healthy baby while my dad and grandparents went out and celebrated I was going to be a miscarriage because I would be the third baby born in 4 years adn they didn't think Mom's health could handle it...she sees it as focusing on the first part of me being wanted, I grew up thinking of how my dad didn't want me to be born...I've never told her how it feels to me because it is such an important part of her narrative about our relationship). Even when they get to be young adults, their minds operate differently than full adults and still approach life in very concrete terms.

I am always wondering what I've done to screw up my kids with all my good intentions.

+1 since I can't give rep points Edited October 26, 2015 by Pa Pa

[CA Steve]

how much control one has depends on the situation,  but making blanket statements that no one has any control or responsibility over their situation are not very helpful. 

 

I have seen too many situations where are person is the victim over and over again and thinks they have no control over it.

We are not talking about many situations, we are talking about rape. Are you trying to tell us you have seen many situations of rape where you think the victim had more control than they thought they did? 

Edited October 26, 2015 by CA Steve

[Danzo]

We are not talking about many situations, we are talking about rape. Are you trying to tell us you have seen many situations of rape where you think the victim had more control than they thought they did? 

 

Are you talking about someone jumping out of the bushes? then you are probably right.

 

That is the minority of rapes.

 

Most rapes are date rapes and there are many points leading up to it where the victim has many opportunities to recognize and remove themselves from the situation or ask for help.

 

Recognizing the situation can be key to avoiding being a victim.

[Calm]

I dunno, I think that, in order to claim rape is a crime, we must acknowledge something has been taken.

Indeed, rape takes away choice at the very least, but can also do many other things to the victim. To take away her self-determinstion, her power, IS stealing something.

I'd hate to see the insistance that rape doesn't take something result in diminishing the criminality of the act.

Rape of a man doesn't result in the loss of his virtue...

 

It is enough that harm is done for there to be a crime done.  Vandalism, assault, etc. what is taken in these examples?  You can define rape by the harm that is done without creating the fiction that it makes her damaged goods, impure, etc.

[Danzo]

Rape of a man doesn't result in the loss of his virtue...

 

It is enough that harm is done for there to be a crime done.  Vandalism, assault, etc. what is taken in these examples?  You can define rape by the harm that is done without creating the fiction that it makes her damaged goods, impure, etc.

 

It is not a fiction, damage, has been done.  In a civil case, you would be making the case that there was economic damage done by the rape and the jury (or judge) would decide home much money would make the victim whole.  These questions are decided quite regularly by our legal system.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Danzo

[Calm]

I am talking about a specific fiction, not making a claim that a woman is not harmed by rape.

 

I am talking about the fiction that it steals her virtue (virtue being goodness, purity, high moral standards, etc).  That she is not as good of a woman as she was before.  That she is now undesirable because another man has had her and by force.  That she no longer can be looked on as a woman with high moral standards.

 

Damaged goods...so if your wife or daughter was raped, would you see her as less of a woman than before she was raped?  Or less pure?

Edited October 27, 2015 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

I really don't understand the apparent nostalgia for some of these cultural and doctrinal relics. There is a reason this stuff isn't taught anymore.

[strappinglad]

Many victims of rape had some measure of control of the situation up to a point in time, after which control was lost. Consider the drunk driver who plows into and kills a pedestrian. At what point was control lost? The pedestrian is the innocent victim for certain, but if the pedestrian was also drunk and wandering in the street at 2 am do they carry no responsibility at all?

[Raingirl]

Are you talking about someone jumping out of the bushes? then you are probably right.

 

That is the minority of rapes.

 

Most rapes are date rapes and there are many points leading up to it where the victim has many opportunities to recognize and remove themselves from the situation or ask for help.

 

Recognizing the situation can be key to avoiding being a victim.

 

Please give us some references for the "many points" and the "many opportunities".

[Danzo]

Please give us some references for the "many points" and the "many opportunities".

Each situation is unique. There isn't one solution for every situation.

One example from recent experience:

Our neighbor was a victim of spousal rape.

This continued until my wife convinced her that she had a responsibility to report her husband to the police. This woman needed to take responsibility for her situation in order for the abuse to stop.

[PeterPear]

What of Moroni 9:9?