Your Virtue Is Worth More Than Your Life.

[JAHS]

In a recent online discussion I had about sexual purity, someone brought up the following quotes by past church leaders:

 

“There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or a daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity – realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”

(Prophet Heber J. Grant, Gospel Standards, complied by G. Homer Durham, p. 55)

 

“It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”

(Spencer W. Kimball, LDS Prophet, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 196)

 

President David O. McKay:

Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please, young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives.”

(The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 63)

 

“I know what my mother expects. I know what she’s saying in her prayers. She’d rather have me come home dead than unclean.”  (Gordon B. Hinckley, Conference Report, April 1967, pp. 51-55)

 

Such statements are regarding as appalling by former Mormons (and perhaps active Mormons) or those of other faiths or no faith. 

Given the fact that there is the possibility for repentance, should one lose their virginity outside the bonds of marriage, does the attitude reflected in the above statements make sense to all or do we regard them as simply personal opinions of the ones who said them? 

I know what FairMormon says about it but what are the opinions here?

 

 

[Gray]

 

In a recent online discussion I had about sexual purity, someone brought up the following quotes by past church leaders:

 

“There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or a daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity – realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”

(Prophet Heber J. Grant, Gospel Standards, complied by G. Homer Durham, p. 55)

 

“It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”

(Spencer W. Kimball, LDS Prophet, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 196)

 

President David O. McKay:

Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please, young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives.”

(The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 63)

 

“I know what my mother expects. I know what she’s saying in her prayers. She’d rather have me come home dead than unclean.”  (Gordon B. Hinckley, Conference Report, April 1967, pp. 51-55)

 

Such statements are regarding as appalling by former Mormons (and perhaps active Mormons) or those of other faiths or no faith. 

Given the fact that there is the possibility for repentance, should one lose their virginity outside the bonds of marriage, does the attitude reflected in the above statements make sense to all or do we regard them as simply personal opinions of the ones who said them? 

I know what FairMormon says about it but what are the opinions here?

 

 

These are ugly ideas, frankly. Thankfully they seem to be going away. 

[jkwilliams]

These are ugly ideas, frankly. Thankfully they seem to be going away. 

 

The idea that is ugly to me is the implication that you lose your virtue if you are raped. It's fine to say that sexual morality/virginity is of great importance, but rape victims do not lose their virtue in any sense. 

[JLHPROF]

Not suprisingly I agree with them mostly. Repentance may be possible in many cases, but is difficult and becomes moreso on repeat offenses and under weightier covenants. Just how important is keeping our lives in the grand scheme of things? It's not like anyone gets out of here alive. So which is more important to preserve? Mortal life or virtue?

[jkwilliams]

Not suprisingly I agree with them mostly. Repentance may be possible in many cases, but is difficult and becomes moreso on repeat offenses and under weightier covenants. Just how important is keeping our lives in the grand scheme of things? It's not like anyone gets out of here alive. So which is more important to preserve? Mortal life or virtue?

 

Again, you lose your virtue by the choices you make. Being raped is not a choice anyone makes. 

[Walden]

Ugly ideas indeed, and proffered by 4 different church prophets, one might come to the conclusion that the ideals are actual LDS belief.

 

I know the common response in these situations is that the speaker was speaking as a man and not a prophet, and that these were personal beliefs and not LDS belief, but when the same mantra is taught by 4 different prophets, it appears as if the teachings are more than just personal opinion.

 

Anyway, the teachings are disgusting.

[Walden]

Not suprisingly I agree with them mostly. Repentance may be possible in many cases, but is difficult and becomes moreso on repeat offenses and under weightier covenants. Just how important is keeping our lives in the grand scheme of things? It's not like anyone gets out of here alive. So which is more important to preserve? Mortal life or virtue?

Are you arguing that rape victims should be repenting? No way

[HappyJackWagon]

These teachings discount the value of the atonement and frankly I can't see how any latter day saint would subscribe to the idea that it would be better to die than to sin. We are all sinners. Should we all die before we sin or should we follow the plan and repent.

And like JKWilliams said, the concept that it is better to suffer death than to allow your virtue to be taken places blame on the victim and is a disgusting teaching.

With teachings like this it is no wonder why so many people suffer from such low self esteem in the church, leading some to even take their own lives. These teachings should be formally disavowed.

[JLHPROF]

How does a rape victim lose virtue in anyway? These quotes refer to virtue, not virginity. The rape overreaction to these quotes is unfounded.

[Walden]

How does a rape victim lose virtue in anyway? These quotes refer to virtue, not virginity. The rape overreaction to these quotes is unfounded.

“There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or a daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity – realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”

(Prophet Heber J. Grant, Gospel Standards, complied by G. Homer Durham, p. 55)

 

What do you assume "chastity" refers to in this statement?

[jkwilliams]

How does a rape victim lose virtue in anyway? These quotes refer to virtue, not virginity. The rape overreaction to these quotes is unfounded.

That is how those quotes were taught to me: if you didn't fight off a rapist with everything you had, you lost your virtue.

[JLHPROF]

Anyone who thinks these quotes apply to rape needs to reexamine the definition of virtue and chastity. That's like saying a murder victim is guilty of killing.

The quotes refer to fornication and adultery and other chosen activities that aren't resisted (as when Joseph resisted Potiphar's wife).

[JAHS]

These are ugly ideas, frankly. Thankfully they seem to be going away. 

Yes these statements were made back in the 60s, and I think most church leaders don't say things like this anymore. But still they were said and people who lived in the 60s are still alive and agree with them. 

I understand the basic idea behind why they said these things. Losing our virginity outside the bonds of marriage can jeoprdize our eternal lives, which are ultimately more important than our mortal lives.  Still, I would rather my child live and repent than die.

Edited October 26, 2015 by JAHS

[JAHS]

Anyone who thinks these quotes apply to rape needs to reexamine the definition of virtue and chastity. That's like saying a murder victim is guilty of killing.

The quotes refer to fornication and adultery and other chosen activities that aren't resisted (as when Joseph resisted Potiphar's wife).

Exactly and that's the main focus I was hoping to stick with on this subject.

[SmileyMcGee]

How does a rape victim lose virtue in anyway? These quotes refer to virtue, not virginity. The rape overreaction to these quotes is unfounded.

in what circumstances, other than rape, would a person die protecting their virtue? Are they suggesting that not resisting rape in order to save one's life is sin? Or perhaps they are advocating suicide as a means of protecting a person from themselves...since you support this teaching, how do you see it playing out in real life?

[SmileyMcGee]

Anyone who thinks these quotes apply to rape needs to reexamine the definition of virtue and chastity. That's like saying a murder victim is guilty of killing.

The quotes refer to fornication and adultery and other chosen activities that aren't resisted (as when Joseph resisted Potiphar's wife).

So how does one die in protecting their virtue in non rape related circumstances?

[jkwilliams]

Exactly and that's the main focus I was hoping to stick with on this subject.

 

Then why bring up quotes that have to do with rape? Here's the context in which those statements were taught to us:

 

 

 

Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is absolutely no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle. (Miracle of Forgiveness)

 

So, the quote you gave earlier is made in the context of chastity being "taken or stolen" and the rape victim not cooperating with the rapist. Perhaps you weren't around when these things were being taught, but I sure remember. But presenting the quote out of context is to completely miss the meaning.

Edited October 26, 2015 by jkwilliams

[bluebell]

I would rather have a sinful child who can repent, than a dead one who never sinned.  And thank goodness, since all of my children over the age of 8 are sinful (as we all are).

[KevinG]

So how does one die in protecting their virtue in non rape related circumstances?

 

Drowning in a heavy 19th century bathing costume.

[KevinG]

So how does one die in protecting their virtue in non rape related circumstances?

 

Heat stroke from wearing three layers of camisoles under a sun dress in hot weather.

[KevinG]

So how does one die in protecting their virtue in non rape related circumstances?

 

Closing one's eyes in order to avoid a pornographic ad.  On the back of a bus.  While it is backing up.

[KevinG]

So how does one die in protecting their virtue in non rape related circumstances?

 

Standing firmly and saying "no means no!"  To a charging rhino.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

These ideas have always been absolutely appalling, of course. HappyJack is right: they should be formally disavowed. 

[jkwilliams]

Standing firmly and saying "no means no!"  To a charging rhino.

 

Joking aside, President Kimball was pretty clear in what he meant. Removing that quote from its context misses the whole point.

[KevinG]

So how does one die in protecting their virtue in non rape related circumstances?

 

Refusing to allow your chest to be touched. By the EMT who is trying to restart your heart.