Your Virtue Is Worth More Than Your Life.

[Danzo]

Damaged goods...so if your wife or daughter was raped, would you see her as less of a woman than before she was raped? Or less pure?

Of course not. To suggest so is extremely offenseve. To suggest that is what President Kimble believed is equally so. I have never seen it advocated by any of the brethren.

Unlike many of the posters here, this question not hypothetical for me, My wife was raped as a child. She was not made to feel guilty or shamed by the church. It was talking to her branch president that helped her overcome the shame that she felt. And she credits the church and the atonement of Christ.

Spencer Kimble continues to be one of her favorite apostles, and yes, she has read the miracle of forgiveness.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Danzo

[carbon dioxide]

I think the statements by Kimball were meant to express the seriousness of these actions.  Not that a person can't repent or that it is better for a person to literally die if they commit them.  The wages of sin is death and this sin will bring spiritual death even if society thinks it is ok.  Even with such statements, many still doubt or question that it is that serious. 

[Raingirl]

Each situation is unique. There isn't one solution for every situation.

One example from recent experience:

Our neighbor was a victim of spousal rape.

This continued until my wife convinced her that she had a responsibility to report her husband to the police. This woman needed to take responsibility for her situation in order for the abuse to stop.

In other words, you have no actual data to provide in response to a CFR.

You declared "most rapes are date rapes" and that there are "many points" and "many opportunities" for a potential rape victim to prevent the rape. Yet when given a CFR you have absolutely nothing to offer.

I guess you prefer to cling to your strange need to blame the victim, along with not actually having any sources on which to base your declared "facts".

[Danzo]

In other words, you have no actual data to provide in response to a CFR.

You declared "most rapes are date rapes" and that there are "many points" and "many opportunities" for a potential rape victim to prevent the rape. Yet when given a CFR you have absolutely nothing to offer.

I guess you prefer to cling to your strange need to blame the victim, along with not actually having any sources on which to base your declared "facts".

I gave you an example, you don't believe me

You would have preferred my neighbor to continue to do nothing and say it was his fault?

By taking responsibility for her situation, her family is now safe and the perp is in jail.

While you are going on saying victims are blameless and have no responsibilities, responsible people are taking care of the problem

Edited October 27, 2015 by Danzo

[Danzo]

In other words, you have no actual data to provide in response to a CFR.

You declared "most rapes are date rapes" and that there are "many points" and "many opportunities" for a potential rape victim to prevent the rape. Yet when given a CFR you have absolutely nothing to offer.

I guess you prefer to cling to your strange need to blame the victim, along with not actually having any sources on which to base your declared "facts".

Since you refuse to believe my experience,

Here is a reference

"One factor relating to this is the misconception that most rapes are committed by strangers.[298] According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 38% of victims were raped by a friend or acquaintance, 28% by "an intimate" and 7% by another relative, and 26% were committed by a stranger to the victim. About four out of ten sexual assaults take place at the victim's own home."

From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

[Calm]

Of course not. To suggest so is extremely offenseve. To suggest that is what President Kimble believed is equally so. I have never seen it advocated by any of the brethren.

Unlike many of the posters here, this question not hypothetical for me, My wife was raped as a child. She was not made to feel guilty or shamed by the church. It was talking to her branch president that helped her overcome the shame that she felt. Adds he credits the church and the atonement of Christ.

Spencer Kimble continues to be one of her favorite apostles, and yes, she has read the miracle of forgiveness.

I am glad to hear that.

Unfortunately not every rape victim has the same experience. I am not claiming the Church makes rape victims feel guilty or shamed, but just as a child may misinterpret being told they are wanted as being told they weren't wanted, so when something is poorly written, when it refers to cultural baggage that is not healthy, a victim can hear what is meant as support as condemnation.

Care needs to be taken to remove what can be misunderstood, where culture can misteach so this doesn't happen to the best of our ability. Learning from experience is one of the best ways to prevent future misunderstandings.

Some victims have read things written by past authorities and been hurt by them. The Church, imo, has recognized this and has changed how rape and chastity are talked about. More change will likely come as we as a culture learn better how to help victims so that more won't be experiencing guilt and shame and can take control of their lives to change, to heal.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Calm

[Danzo]

I am glad to hear that.

Unfortunately not every rape victim has the same experience. I am not claiming the Church makes rape victims feel guilty or shamed, but just as a child may misinterpret being told they are wanted as being told they weren't wanted, so when something is poorly written, when it refers to cultural baggage that is not healthy, a victim can hear what is meant as support as condemnation.

Care needs to be taken to remove what can be misunderstood, where culture can misteach so this doesn't happen to the best of our ability. Learning from experience is one of the best ways to prevent future misunderstandings.

Some victims have read things written by past authorities and been hurt by them. The Church, imo, has recognized this and has changed how rape and chastity are talked about. More change will likely come as we as a culture learn better how to help victims so that more won't be experiencing guilt and shame and can take control of their lives to change, to heal.

Of course the church will continue to clarify and update. That is how we communicate. I say something, you say "you said What?" I say "I really Didn't mean that, this is what I really meant". And so on.

I just don't think SWK thought that rape victims were guilty of anything. He might have said something, but his subsequent words and actions make it clear that is not what he meant, and if there is any doubt, modern church authorities have further clarified.

[Thinking]

"One factor relating to this is the misconception that most rapes are committed by strangers.[298] According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 38% of victims were raped by a friend or acquaintance, 28% by "an intimate" and 7% by another relative, and 26% were committed by a stranger to the victim. About four out of ten sexual assaults take place at the victim's own home."

From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

 

What these numbers tell me is that about 3 out of 4 rapes are committed by somebody familiar to the victim, somebody who probably has developed a level of trust with the victim. This is even stronger evidence that we should resist placing responsibility at any level on the victim.

 

Does this mean that women (or men) shouldn't look for signs that a situation is turning bad? Of course not. However, we need to avoid using the word responsibility to describe the role the victim had in a rape or an attack. I would guess that the main role that a woman has in being raped is that she is...well, a woman.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Thinking

[Danzo]

However, we need to avoid using the word responsibility.

What word would you use?

[Thinking]

What word would you use?

 

Victim.

[Raingirl]

Since you refuse to believe my experience,

Here is a reference

"One factor relating to this is the misconception that most rapes are committed by strangers.[298] According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 38% of victims were raped by a friend or acquaintance, 28% by "an intimate" and 7% by another relative, and 26% were committed by a stranger to the victim. About four out of ten sexual assaults take place at the victim's own home."

From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

Where did I post the words that I refuse to believe your experience? Whatever that means.

Do you have any direct sources or did you just do a quick Wikipedia search this evening? You must have multiple credible sources, correct?

And you have still not backed up your declaration of "many points" and "many opportunities". Surely there are many studies with specific, concrete, verifiable examples you could provide to prove that of which you are so adamant about.

And please be sure to provide the voluminous documentation you must surely have readily at hand to show us the "many points" and "many opportunities" that young children have to prevent their own rapes.

[Danzo]

I would guess that the main role that a woman has is being raped is that she is...well, a woman.

I think this idea turns women into passive victims that can do nothing but endure the abuse, thus perpetuating the problem.

I try to teach my daughters ( and sons)

1. How to avoid bad situations

2. What to do if they find themselves in a bad situation

3. What to do after they find themselves in a bad situation.

Each of these involves them taking a responsibility for their situation.

I would never want them to think

"I am a woman, these things just happen to me because I am a woman"

We also have always taught that we are responsible for our own sinsvand not the sins of others.

[Danzo]

Victim.

 

Obviously they are victims, but that doesn't help them get out of their situation, does it?

It also doesn't help them avoid future situations, does it?

 

I just don't get it!

 

When I was in the fire department, every incident that went wrong was dissected and analyzed ad naseum,   Victims were mourned, of course, but every opportunity was taken to make sure it didn't happen again.

 

When someone gets sexually assaulted?  "I guess it was just because they were a woman, nothing we can do about it"  

[JAHS]

I think this idea turns women into passive victims that can do nothing but endure the abuse, thus perpetuating the problem.

I try to teach my daughters ( and sons)

1. How to avoid bad situations

2. What to do if they find themselves in a bad situation

3. What to do after they find themselves in a bad situation.

Each of these involves them taking a responsibility for their situation.

I would never want them to think

"I am a woman, these things just happen to me because I am a woman"

We also have always taught that we are responsible for our own sinsvand not the sins of others.

I think mostly what we can do is teach our kids how to keep themselves out of situations that make them vulnerable to unwanted sexual advances.

A girl may think she is only going to go to first base with a guy; but the guy may be thinking second or third. 

[Danzo]

Where did I post the words that I refuse to believe your experience? Whatever that means.

Do you have any direct sources or did you just do a quick Wikipedia search this evening? You must have multiple credible sources, correct?

And you have still not backed up your declaration of "many points" and "many opportunities". Surely there are many studies with specific, concrete, verifiable examples you could provide to prove that of which you are so adamant about.

And please be sure to provide the voluminous documentation you must surely have readily at hand to show us the "many points" and "many opportunities" that young children have to prevent their own rapes.

 

I don't think we seem to be communicating very well.

 

I will try to get you some better sources when I have time tomorrow.  

 

Just to clarify what you want me to source;  You doubt the article I linked to?  You think that majority sexual assaults occur between strangers? If that is the case, i will try to find the original statistics linked to in the Wikipedia article, or perhaps you can show me where I am wrong and that most sexual assaults occur between strangers.

 

As to your request that I provide documentation that "young children" avoid sexual assaults, I was not aware that the topic was "young children and sexual assault".  I will concede that "Young Children" do not have much control over the circumstances of their sexual assaults.  It is the Adults that are responsible.

 

As for adults and sexual assault, The each situation is unique, statistics, or studies cannot show what is unique in each situation. however there are common threads that involve things that the victim can control.  One is Alcohol consumption (I'll try and find original research for you tomorrow).  Another is that sexual assaults occur between people who know each other (I know you don't believe me, I'll find the source tomorrow), the victims often have  control over how much contact they have with perp, this is especially the case where the victim is in an ongoing relationship with the Perp.  

 

 

Look,  I am not saying the victim is guilty of the sin, we are only guilty of our own sins, we should never teach otherwise.  When there is no responsibility, there is no control, only surrender to ones fate.   When we look around, and take responsibility for what we can control,  can we have the power to stop the abuse, report the abuse, avoid the abuse and deal with abusers.  

[Thinking]

I think this idea turns women into passive victims that can do nothing but endure the abuse, thus perpetuating the problem.

I try to teach my daughters ( and sons)

1. How to avoid bad situations

2. What to do if they find themselves in a bad situation

3. What to do after they find themselves in a bad situation.

Each of these involves them taking a responsibility for their situation.

I would never want them to think

"I am a woman, these things just happen to me because I am a woman"

We also have always taught that we are responsible for our own sinsvand not the sins of others.

 

Please read again what was included in my post.

Does this mean that women (or men) shouldn't look for signs that a situation is turning bad? Of course not.

 

I think you missed the main point of my post.

What these numbers tell me is that about 3 out of 4 rapes are committed by somebody familiar to the victim, somebody who probably has developed a level of trust with the victim. This is even stronger evidence that we should resist placing responsibility at any level on the victim.

 

 

 

[Danzo]

we should resist placing responsibility at any level on the victim.

 

I think we view the word responsibility differently.

 

I think you might mean responsibility=blame, or punishment,  something negative, the more you have, the worse off you are,

 

I mean responsibility = "the state or fact of being responsible, answerable, or accountable for something within one's power, control, or management." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/responsibility?s=t

 

I see it as something that empowers someone, lets them control what they can. I see it as a positive thing.  To not be responsible is to be powerless, unable to control the situation.

 

How much power or control a victim has over the situation varies, and often there is no control at at all, but to what extent it exists, I see it as a good thing, not a bad thing. I see it as the more responsibility you have, the better off you are.

[Thinking]

I think we view the word responsibility differently.

 

I think you might mean responsibility=blame, or punishment,  something negative, the more you have, the worse off you are,

 

I mean responsibility = "the state or fact of being responsible, answerable, or accountable for something within one's power, control, or management." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/responsibility?s=t

 

I see it as something that empowers someone, lets them control what they can. I see it as a positive thing.  To not be responsible is to be powerless, unable to control the situation.

 

How much power or control a victim has over the situation varies, and often there is no control at at all, but to what extent it exists, I see it as a good thing, not a bad thing. I see it as the more responsibility you have, the better off you are.

 

I think you're viewing responsibility as a preventative measure. Nobody is arguing that a woman shouldn't try to avoid potentially threatening situations. I think it's interesting that you keep talking about control, as if the victim is somehow in control. After an attack it's easy to use hindsight to decide what the victim should have done to avoid the situation. Can the victim learn from the experience? Yes. Can this knowledge change what has already happened? No.

[Danzo]

I think you're viewing responsibility as a preventative measure. Nobody is arguing that a woman shouldn't try to avoid potentially threatening situations. I think it's interesting that you keep talking about control, as if the victim is somehow in control. After an attack it's easy to use hindsight to decide what the victim should have done to avoid the situation. Can the victim learn from the experience? Yes. Can this knowledge change what has already happened? No.

But it can change what happens next time

[Thinking]

But it can change what happens next time

 

I'm confident that I just wrote something like that.

Can the victim learn from the experience? Yes.

[Calm]

One should describe victim's experiences in the past differently than future...and since responsibility is enough of an ambigious word, I would suggest avoiding it. I think empowering has the right kind of nuances for the situation, but what that means still needs to be spelled out...becoming informed and proactive and protective of oneself and others. And while some may take suggestions they become so as an indictment of their past self, if someone has developed as trust with the victim (I personally hate using that word...their horrible experience should not become their identity), it willbe easier to teach that they are only accountable for what they know, notwhat they might have known if circumstances were perfect...but now they have a chance to learn more and they need to accept that chance as a gift and work with it to create a better future.

[Meadowchik]

Rape of a man doesn't result in the loss of his virtue...

 

It is enough that harm is done for there to be a crime done.  Vandalism, assault, etc. what is taken in these examples?  You can define rape by the harm that is done without creating the fiction that it makes her damaged goods, impure, etc.

 

I was speaking on the reference to virtue in Moroni 9:9 where virtue is "most dear and precious above all things."  One definition, from Merriam-Webster,  is that "virtue" is "a beneficial quality or power of a thing."  "Power" is also one of  the definition of virtue in 1828. (LINK, page 772-773.) Bolded mine. Having your power or self-determination taken away, especially during a potentially critical moment like a sexual act, is damaging. It hurts psychology and is a physical violation and can have long-term and permanent consequences. 

 

It is true that rape by a person of the same sex cannot have the exact possible consequences, but everything except pregnancy is a potential consequence, including that loss of power. 

 

Objectively speaking, rape does damage and it does introduce impurities into the human body.  It is we who speak of transcendent moral law who say that there is something more important than physical damage, violation, or physical impurity.  We believe that an allegiance and closeness to God can be sustained regardless of such physical circumstances, and we are right to believe so.  It is despite such wounds that all is conquered through Christ.

 

This is not an easy subject, though.  

 

 

 

 

Why do you say rape of a man does not result in a loss of his virtue?

[Calm]

 

Why do you say rape of a man does not result in a loss of his virtue?

Have you ever heard in writing or elsewhere a teaching or attitude that the rape of a man leaves him impure? No longer chaste?

[Meadowchik]

Have you ever heard in writing or elsewhere a teaching or attitude that the rape of a man leaves him impure? No longer chaste?

 

All the statements in the OP seem to be applicable to both males and females, and Hinkley's specifically applies to a male, himself. 

 

That said, there is likely more focus on the rape of women because women are raped more often than men.  Men raping women is today, still considered a conquest of a people.  Perhaps, the more applicable point for men, is that it may be better to die in battle than to give up your chastity by raping another, even if it means you die by the hand of your command.

 

Again though, objectively speaking, rape does damage and it does introduce impurities into the human body.  It is we who speak of transcendent moral law who say that there is something more important than physical damage, violation, or physical impurity.  We believe that an allegiance and closeness to God can be sustained regardless of such physical circumstances, and we are right to believe so.  It is despite such wounds that all is conquered through Christ.

 

To be clear, I do not and would not wish my child dead rather than raped.  Such an act cannot take God or His angels away from a person.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Meadowchik

[Ares]

This has run its course.