jkwilliams Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 No, sometimes a presider is needed to avoid misunderstanding in the first place. Sometimes it's just too costly to wait for disagreement. We've agreed, for example, that I'll do all the communicating with the tenants of our rental next door. Agreeing was not a problem, it was the miscommunication that helped lead to very painful situations because they were talking to both of us separately about the same things. That makes complete sense. The issue is whether there is something inherent in being male that makes one the presider.
HappyJackWagon Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 I'm curious if anyone has any greater knowledge or understanding of Mother in Heaven after the essay's release?Or do all the same, BIG questions remain? IF there is no greater knowledge shared in the essay, what was the point of releasing it? Is it simply to raise the issue as a way to signal it's now okay to study, search, discuss openly, seek our own personal understanding of "a" mother in Heaven without fear of church discipline? Or is it a way to reinforce the concept that SSM is bad and that traditional marriate is good...because...you know...Heavenly Mother?
jkwilliams Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 I'm curious if anyone has any greater knowledge or understanding of Mother in Heaven after the essay's release? Or do all the same, BIG questions remain? IF there is no greater knowledge shared in the essay, what was the point of releasing it? Is it simply to raise the issue as a way to signal it's now okay to study, search, discuss openly, seek our own personal understanding of "a" mother in Heaven without fear of church discipline? Or is it a way to reinforce the concept that SSM is bad and that traditional marriate is good...because...you know...Heavenly Mother? For me, the essay boils down to "we don't know a lot about this topic."
Buckeye Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 While we don't KNOW a lot about heavenly mother, we do have a long history of thinking about her and attempts to conceptualize her role. Here's a really good (and fairly brief) overview: http://www.wheatandtares.org/19412/will-the-real-heavenly-mother-please-stand-up/
Nofear Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 I'm curious if anyone has any greater knowledge or understanding of Mother in Heaven after the essay's release?Or do all the same, BIG questions remain? For my part, the essay didn't offer anything new idea wise. There was a quote or two that I didn't recognize and that was nice.But I also think we often treat Heavenly Mother as a bigger mystery than she is. Indeed, to me, she isn't a mystery at all. We know her husband has a perfection of character and is omnipotent. He loves me perfectly, He is perfectly kind, wise, caring, intelligent, and more. I know that he has the best interests of me and my family in mind whenever we interact.My Mother in Heaven is exactly the same. She has a perfection of character and is likewise omnipotent. She is perfectly kind, wise, caring, intelligent, and more. I know that she has the best interest of me and my family in mind whenever we interact. When do I interact with her? Pretty much whenever I interact with her husband. They are one, unified in purposes and intent. Indeed, can you think of anything that Heavenly Mother would do differently than what has been done by our Heavenly Father? And how do we know the Father or the Mother? Through Christ. He exemplified them, their intents and love for us. I paraphrase John 14:9, "He that hath seen me [Christ] hath seen the Mother; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Mother?" 3
theplains Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 If there is plural marriage in the eternities, isn't it possible that we don't all have the same Heavenly Mother? That's correct. According to D&C 132, especially verse 31, Heavenly Father is a polygamist. Regards,Jim 1
jkwilliams Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 That's correct. According to D&C 132, especially verse 31, Heavenly Father is a polygamist.Regards,JimAnother belief I am glad to have put behind me. 2
Meadowchik Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 For my part, the essay didn't offer anything new idea wise. There was a quote or two that I didn't recognize and that was nice.But I also think we often treat Heavenly Mother as a bigger mystery than she is. Indeed, to me, she isn't a mystery at all. We know her husband has a perfection of character and is omnipotent. He loves me perfectly, He is perfectly kind, wise, caring, intelligent, and more. I know that he has the best interests of me and my family in mind whenever we interact.My Mother in Heaven is exactly the same. She has a perfection of character and is likewise omnipotent. She is perfectly kind, wise, caring, intelligent, and more. I know that she has the best interest of me and my family in mind whenever we interact. When do I interact with her? Pretty much whenever I interact with her husband. They are one, unified in purposes and intent. Indeed, can you think of anything that Heavenly Mother would do differently than what has been done by our Heavenly Father? And how do we know the Father or the Mother? Through Christ. He exemplified them, their intents and love for us. I paraphrase John 14:9, "He that hath seen me [Christ] hath seen the Mother; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Mother?" That's how I've thought of it, though I haven't described it so well as you have. Thank you. Maybe, in terms of looking for Heavenly Mother, we're like fish in the ocean looking for water.
Nofear Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 That's how I've thought of it, though I haven't described it so well as you have. Thank you. Maybe, in terms of looking for Heavenly Mother, we're like fish in the ocean looking for water. Thank you for the kind words. Jacob soundly condemned the Jews for looking past Christ, for "looking beyond the mark" (Jacob 4:14) and trying to make thing more complex than they are. Yet, that same criticism (with all its attendant condemnations) could well be applied to some women and men in their seeking Heavenly Mother. Wherefore, God has taken away the plainness from among us because we, as a people, have despised its plainness and sought for things we could not understand.
Five Solas Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 If there is plural marriage in the eternities, isn't it possible that we don't all have the same Heavenly Mother?Very insightful, jkwilliams--I've honestly never considered the implication before (but is sure seems inescapable now that you've written it). I think it could prove a satisfying explanation for differences in the human condition. Certainly much better than alleging some were "not valiant" in a pre-existence. The Old Testament is full of examples of less-favored wives & offspring (e.g., Jacob's wives - Leah vs. Rachel). In fact, pretty much all of the examples of polygamy as practiced by the great patriarchs of the OT feature this sort of tension--so why would anyone think a pre-existence of wives and offspring would be different? A person's condition in this life may be attributable, at least in part, to being the spirit child of a less-preferred wife like Tamar or perhaps even a Hagar. The subject merits its own thread. I do hope someone will start it. :0) --Erik PS. Happy Halloween!
HappyJackWagon Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Very insightful, jkwilliams--I've honestly never considered the implication before (but is sure seems inescapable now that you've written it). I think it could prove a satisfying explanation for differences in the human condition. Certainly much better than alleging some were "not valiant" in a pre-existence. The Old Testament is full of examples of less-favored wives & offspring (e.g., Jacob's wives - Leah vs. Rachel). In fact, pretty much all of the examples of polygamy as practiced by the great patriarchs of the OT feature this sort of tension--so why would anyone think a pre-existence of wives and offspring would be different? A person's condition in this life may be attributable, at least in part, to being the spirit child of a less-preferred wife like Tamar or perhaps even a Hagar. The subject merits its own thread. I do hope someone will start it. :0) --Erik PS. Happy Halloween! This is exactly why the church is cagy about the issue of Mother in Heaven. It opens a can of worms they don't really want to deal with.
filovirus Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 This is exactly why the church is cagy about the issue of Mother in Heaven. It opens a can of worms they don't really want to deal with.Or...there just hasn't much revealed about her.
HappyJackWagon Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Or...there just hasn't much revealed about her.If only there were a way to get more answers. Or maybe even a special person with access to spiritual knowledge. When eternal families are the central goal of members in fulfilling the plan of happiness, there seems to be a gaping hole in our understanding about eternity. We're basing everything on some vague claims and assumptions. (the essay reiterated that there is no recorded prophesy on the issue) Growing up I remember thinking how special it was to be a member because we had all the answers. Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going? The truth is the church's answers are just as vague as every other church's. 1
jkwilliams Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 If only there were a way to get more answers. Or maybe even a special person with access to spiritual knowledge. When eternal families are the central goal of members in fulfilling the plan of happiness, there seems to be a gaping hole in our understanding about eternity. We're basing everything on some vague claims and assumptions. (the essay reiterated that there is no recorded prophesy on the issue) Growing up I remember thinking how special it was to be a member because we had all the answers. Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going? The truth is the church's answers are just as vague as every other church's. It's interesting that there isn't much revealed about the reasons for the priesthood ban, but that didn't stop prophets and apostles from teaching theories (which the church now calls "speculation"). But for Mother in Heaven, there isn't a ton of speculation, other than the clear teaching that she is but one of God's wives, though that obviously wasn't going to be stated in the essay.
MiserereNobis Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Growing up I remember thinking how special it was to be a member because we had all the answers. Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going? The truth is the church's answers are just as vague as every other church's. Catholics often get attacked for belief in "mystery." I've tried to point this out many times on this board -- the LDS church has mysteries, too. Every religion has mystery and any apparently clear straight-forward answer has mysteries lurking just beneath the surface. Makes me think of Socrates and his continual questioning of those in authority to show that even though their first answers appeared to be knowledgeable, in the end no one really knew anything 4
Meadowchik Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Catholics often get attacked for belief in "mystery." I've tried to point this out many times on this board -- the LDS church has mysteries, too.Every religion has mystery and any apparently clear straight-forward answer has mysteries lurking just beneath the surface.Makes me think of Socrates and his continual questioning of those in authority to show that even though their first answers appeared to be knowledgeable, in the end no one really knew anything I wouldn't say that a larger unknown means we know nothing, it just means we have yet much more to learn.Learning of the infinite unknown, to me, is one the most exciting aspects of yhe afterlife! 1
Jeanne Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Heavenly Father doesn't reveal information on any Mother in Heaven, because He loves Her more than His children.And if any of us "children" mocked His wife, He would lose His patience and thrash you to an inch of your eternal non-existence!What if though...SHE could really handle all that..and the joy of communicating with her children would give her peace and strength? She is part of this glorified eternal plan with said powers. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 What if though...SHE could really handle all that..and the joy of communicating with her children would give her peace and strength? She is part of this glorified eternal plan with said powers.As an exalted Goddess, I'm sure Heavenly Mother(s?) could handle quite a bit.
Jeanne Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 As an exalted Goddess, I'm sure Heavenly Mother(s?) could handle quite a bit.So true. And just as a plain old mother..she would want to connect with her children. 1
Steve-o Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 I love that this was addressed in an essay. It was short but at least we have a difinitive source we can point to that says we have a mother in heaven. Maybe this means more information will be coming later. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 I love that this was addressed in an essay. It was short but at least we have a difinitive source we can point to that says we have a mother in heaven. Maybe this means more information will be coming later.That's a very optimistic of you. I hope you're right that this is only the beginning of more to come but I don't know if there is justification for such optimism. Throughout church history there has been a bit of talk in the past by academics and church leaders but that really hasn't led to any new information. http://byustudies.org/content/mother-there-survey-historical-teachings-about-mother-heaven 1
Steve-o Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 That's a very optimistic of you. I hope you're right that this is only the beginning of more to come but I don't know if there is justification for such optimism. Throughout church history there has been a bit of talk in the past by academics and church leaders but that really hasn't led to any new information. http://byustudies.org/content/mother-there-survey-historical-teachings-about-mother-heavenMaybe it's optimistic but it feels better than being pessimistic 1
Tacenda Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 I didn't post this earlier because some here can't stand Mormon Stories Podcasts, but feel this is a good one to put in this thread. http://mormonstories.org/mother-in-heaven/ Maybe it already has been posted here, doesn't hurt to post it twice if so.
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