Mother In Heaven Essay

[HappyJackWagon]

If you think preside = bossing  or president = boss in the family context I'd suggest repentance.

KevinG, easy on the calls to repentance.

 

Aside from quoting scripture, what is your definition of preside?

Is someone who presides equal in authority with one who is presided over?

[HappyJackWagon]

A man should preside over his family as Christ presides over the church.  Up to and including giving his life.

 

Of course presiding is a partnership.  Mothers and fathers share that responsibility.  But you are reading too much into the word that doesn't apply to the way we preside in the church.

So when a bishop presides over his ward, he is really doing it in equal partnership with the congregants? Does that equality explain why there is so much emphasis on sustaining those who preside over us?

[KevinG]

KevinG, easy on the calls to repentance.

 

Aside from quoting scripture, what is your definition of preside?

Is someone who presides equal in authority with one who is presided over?

 

I'm not calling you to repent.  I'm saying you might want to reevaluate your definition of preside.  I quoted D&C 121 as a model of presiding.  

 

That is the church definition of preside.

[KevinG]

So when a bishop presides over his ward, he is really doing it in equal partnership with the congregants? Does that equality explain why there is so much emphasis on sustaining those who preside over us?

 

Yes and yes.

 

Now do some study on what it means to sustain.

[Tsuzuki]

The problem of course is reconciling the doctrine of Heavenly Mother (a doctrine that makes all the sense in the world if you think of God as a literal and corporeal father of the human race) with the silence regarding heavenly mother since most traces of the the old pantheon of El were purged from Hebrew worship. Not to mention the near silence over the last century in the church. 

 

Efforts to explain the silence around Heavenly Mother have been unsatisfactory and rather sexist. A better framework needs to be constructed if Heavenly Mother is to to emerge from obscurity in LDS worship practices. 

Thelema has such a framework, and it also accounts for the historical silence.

 

In Thelema, there's the concept of Aeons, which are similar to the Mormon concept of dispensations. The first Aeon, the Aeon of Isis, was matriarchal and focused on goddess worship. The second Aeon, that of Osiris, was patriarchal, and it's best representatives are the Abrahamic faiths. The third Aeon, the one we're in now according to Thelema, is the Aeon of Horus. The New Aeon draws on the other two, so that both Mother and Father are celebrated, but the focus is on their Child, which is each individual. It's my belief that Mormonism was a precursor to this, but somehow got stuck in the Old Aeon of Osiris.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon_(Thelema)

Edited October 26, 2015 by Tsuzuki

[HappyJackWagon]

Yes and yes.

 

Now do some study on what it means to sustain.

Care to elaborate on your "yes" and "yes" statement? I do enjoy brevity but I prefer for there to be some substance.

 

I understand what it means to preside and what it means to sustain. You have explained neither.

[KevinG]

Care to elaborate on your "yes" and "yes" statement? I do enjoy brevity but I prefer for there to be some substance.

 

I understand what it means to preside and what it means to sustain. You have explained neither.

 

OK your implication that sustaining someone who presides puts them under some kind of lesser position in the relationship is wrong headed.

 

A Bishop is called to serve, a father is called to serve, a prophet is called to serve.  The Mormon priesthood is a calling of service first and foremost.

 

Jaded and cynical views of what preside means in the church notwithstanding.

[Zakuska]

Websters 1820

 

Pre`side´

v. i. 1. To be set, or to sit, in the place of authority; to occupy the place of president, chairman,moderator, director, etc.; to direct, control, and regulate, as chief officer; as, to preside at a public meeting; to preside over the senate.

[imp. & p. p. Presided; p. pr. & vb. n. Presiding.]

  2. To exercise superintendence; to watch over.

Some o'er the public magazines preside.

- Dryden.

 

Related words:

administer, administer justice, administrate, be master, captain, carry on, chair, chairman,command, conduct, control, discipline, do the honors, entertain, entertain guests, give a party,govern, guest, handle, head, head up, host, judge, keep, lead, manage, occupy the chair, officer,operate, ordain, oversee, preside over, regulate, rule, run, sit in judgment, stand over, supervise,throw a party, wield authority

 

 

Apparently this is a case of the church and Kevin G redfining words again.  They did the same thing in the Woman and the priesthood essay thread where the definition of "ordain and set apart"  was twisted so out shape you couldn't even recognize it.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Zakuska

[KevinG]

I have no issue with that definition of preside.

 

Now let's discuss how it is we are supposed to preside.  I refer you back to Christ and D&C 121.

[Hillel2]

When you say "equivalent", how equivalent do you mean? Are they truly husband and wife as in being human and married or is this metaphorical for the relationship between different attributes of God? Is God human, of immaterial substance or something else? Is the Shechnineh distinct from God, her own person or something else?

[Hillel2]

Hello Calm.

These are good questions but there is no single answer, i.e the old joke: ask two (insert name of religious or ethnic group) and u will get 3 opinions.

Per normative rabbinic judaism,e.g. Maimonides, G-d does not have a body and I would assume the allegorical translation holds firm in most contemporary mind sets. It is Not , however, universal any more than in Christianity. There were and have been many down the ages who believed in a divine family, father, mother, son, daughter..to what extent mere hypostases or "real" personalities is open to discussion.

Many prominent authorities condemned such ideas which proves them extant in the Jewish community.

For a short interesting read, do a search on Shiur Qomah... A medieval document describing G-d's physical proportions... Widely known, widely condemned. Is it literal or allegorical? Depens on whom u ask.

But the ideas are there for any who want to find them and they probably predate Christianity.

[Hillel2]

The Shekinah or "Divine Presence" does not appear in the Bible, and the concept can be fully accounted for via the Holy Spirit, which is male.

[Hillel2]

Hello Robert: You are correct. I should have been more precise (apologies) and said implied... But There are numerous instances of the verb shachan throughout the text. Moreover, the tabernacle miSKaN is the place wherein the divine presence ( from whence the word shechineh) later appears. The arguments for the existence of the shechineh based on the text are probably no stronger or weaker than those which support later notions of divine wisdom, the holy spirit or any other persons we might ascribe to a godhead. :-)

By first century people are using shechineh so it seems likely there was already a tradition in place by then.

[Gray]

A man should preside over his family as Christ presides over the church.  Up to and including giving his life.

 

Of course presiding is a partnership.  Mothers and fathers share that responsibility.  But you are reading too much into the word that doesn't apply to the way we preside in the church.

 

Sure, the man can preside. As long as the woman is also presiding. Maybe just cut to the chase and say parents should preside over their families.

[KevinG]

Sure, the man can preside. As long as the woman is also presiding. Maybe just cut to the chase and say parents should preside over their families.

 

Write your own proclamation if you don't like the one the Prophets, Apostles and Revelators came up with

[HappyJackWagon]

Sure, the man can preside. As long as the woman is also presiding. Maybe just cut to the chase and say parents should preside over their families.

This would also provide the service of making it clear that a single mother presides in her home over her aaronic priesthood aged son. I've heard it taught many times that in the absense of a father, the aaronic priesthood holder presides, as the priesthood holder in the home.

[DJBrown]

We believe that largely we will get what will make us happiest, so as far as I am concerned you will get your wish.

I personally believe that just as we largely create out own lives here with our choices, that will continue in the hereafter. I think the three kingdoms may be metaphorical for exactly that sort of belief.

We are judged and rise to the degree we deserve exactly- there is no one reward - or three awards- which fit everyone's situation in justice.

Maybe there may be three general categories of reward with infinite gradations possible to fit each individual's exact circumstances. I think nothing else would be just, having everyone in one kingdom or three for that matter.

That is one of my favorite teachings of Mormonism- that our rewards/punishments fit our personal situations exactly to fulfill justice and mercy, taking into account God's grace in that none of us really "deserve" anything from him at all as the little worms we tend to be.

 

 

The Law of the Harvest.  I couldn't agree more.  This is one of the most sensible and believable doctrines I know of.

[Gray]

Write your own proclamation if you don't like the one the Prophets, Apostles and Revelators came up with

 

"“If we could only see a resurgence in this land of a man looking to his wife as his equal, his comfort, and his dearest friend, and a woman walking beside her husband, neither before nor behind him, as a companion, and looking to him as the light and strength of her life, we would begin to strengthen families." - GBH

[mfbukowski]

This would also provide the service of making it clear that a single mother presides in her home over her aaronic priesthood aged son. I've heard it taught many times that in the absense of a father, the aaronic priesthood holder presides, as the priesthood holder in the home.

So if two gay people get married, they can't decide to let someone "preside""

 

Marriage is voluntary and in the LDS church, the man presides.

 

Those are the rules up front, everyone knows them.  If that is not the agreement between the parties they should not get sealed, thereby effectively agreeing with the Proclamation.

 

Now you are limiting the choices of consenting adults on how to live their lives??

[mfbukowski]

In every gay couple I have seen, one is dominant and "presides"

 

Sex has nothing to do with it because that is what they have chosen

 

So what's wrong with a couple deciding that the man should preside?

[HappyJackWagon]

So if two gay people get married, they can't decide to let someone "preside""

 

Marriage is voluntary and in the LDS church, the man presides.

 

Those are the rules up front, everyone knows them.  If that is not the agreement between the parties they should not get sealed, thereby effectively agreeing with the Proclamation.

 

Now you are limiting the choices of consenting adults on how to live their lives??

Why choose 1 to preside. Why not do it as an equal team. That's how my household functions and it functions very well.

 

"Everyone" knows these rules. Really? What about converts who are already married and now the husband is in charge. I guess they could have decided not to get baptized.

 

People are only deciding insofar as they are deciding to let the church decide for them.

[Buckeye]

So if two gay people get married, they can't decide to let someone "preside""

 

Marriage is voluntary and in the LDS church, the man presides.

 

Those are the rules up front, everyone knows them.  If that is not the agreement between the parties they should not get sealed, thereby effectively agreeing with the Proclamation.

 

Now you are limiting the choices of consenting adults on how to live their lives??

 

Dude, the "rules" are commonly misunderstood and regularly ignored. Pretty much the same thing as with contraceptive in the 60s and 70s. Ask any gospel doctrine class about who presides in their homes and the majority will say something like "we both do." If it's a ward with mostly young couples the percentage will be over 90%. If you point out the hierarchy in the temple ceremonies, many endowed members will say "gee, I never really noticed that" (even though they've been through a session many times) and many of those who do notice (like myself) will readily admit that the hierarchy plays no meaningful role in their marriage. In other words, I've never "presided" in the sense of making a significant decision contrary to my wife's wishes. And most all of the LDS couples in my age group and younger (I'm almost 40) would say the same. For all practical purposes, the days when men presided over their wives at home is quickly dying. Good riddens.

 

ETA: The way my marriage works does not violate the proclamation, at least in my interpretation. I still still preside in the family, just as the proclamation directs. But so does my wife. The proclamation does not exclude women from presiding any more than it excludes them from protecting the family or men from nurturing children.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Buckeye

[HappyJackWagon]

Dude, the "rules" are commonly misunderstood and regularly ignored. Pretty much the same thing as with contraceptive in the 60s and 70s. Ask any gospel doctrine class who presides in their homes and the majority will same something like "we both do." If it's a ward with mostly young couples the percentage will over 90%. If you point out the hierarchy in the temple, many endowed members will say "gee, I never really noticed that" (even though they've been through a session many times) and many of those who do notice (like myself) will readily admit that the hierarchy plays no meaningful role in their marriage. In other words, I've never "presided" in the sense of making a significant decision contrary to my wife's wishes. And most all of the LDS couples in my age group and younger (I'm almost 40) would say the same. For all practical purposes, the days when men presided over their wives at home is quickly dying. Good riddens.

 

ETA: The way my marriage works does not violate the proclamation, at least in my interpretation. I still still preside in the family, just as the proclamation directs. But so does my wife. The proclamation does not exclude women from presiding any more than it excludes them from protecting the family or men from nurturing children.

Right!

 

The "men preside" and "women nurture" is a remnant of a 19th-mid 20th century culture. Strict gender roles are are becoming much more flexible and that's a good thing.

 

ETA- My 2000th post !!!

Edited October 26, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[CA Steve]

If presiding means both share equally in decision making why call it presiding? I mean if it really is an equally based relationship we should be able to say the women presides also should we not? We don't, it isn't.

Edited October 26, 2015 by CA Steve

[Buckeye]

If presiding means both share equally in decision making why call it presiding? I mean if it really is an equally based relationship we should be able to say the women presides also should we not? We don't, it isn't.

 

Presiding means to give direction, to lead. My wife and I collectively preside over our children. Neither of us presides over the other. 

 

Unfortunately, because so many members can't draw the line correctly, these days we hear very little about the importance of presiding (at least in my ward). Most teachers just avoid the subject rather than enter a minefield. I try to fix that with every chance I have (I have sons and serve in the YM). I teach my YM what presiding is and that presiding is absolutely their responsibility. They need to lead and direct their families, not sit around like bums (which can happen). But I also teach them that their wives can preside alongside them and give them my example of how a good marriage does just that (noting also that marriages in the past where men presided over their wives could also be very good).