Scott Lloyd Posted October 23, 2015 Posted October 23, 2015 Starting this thread for The SkepticChristian, whose "limited' status precludes him from starting his own threads.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Insofar as he is asking "WWJD?" I think so, and he seems to be asking that question a lot -- to the discomfort of many who fear the consequences. 1
Popular Post Kenngo1969 Posted October 24, 2015 Popular Post Posted October 24, 2015 I'm all for alleviating the physical suffering of our fellow beings as much as possible. We should, indeed, reach out to succor one another according to our needs. But Christ also said, "The poor ye have with you always, but me, ye have not always." The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can, should, and does partner with people of good will wherever it can to alleviate such physical suffering. But the Church stands alone in its mission to offer authorized, saving ordinances to the world, and it cannot abdicate that mission. 5
Popular Post 3DOP Posted October 24, 2015 Popular Post Posted October 24, 2015 I'm all for alleviating the physical suffering of our fellow beings as much as possible. We should, indeed, reach out to succor one another according to our needs. But Christ also said, "The poor ye have with you always, but me, ye have not always." The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can, should, and does partner with people of good will wherever it can to alleviate such physical suffering. But the Church stands alone in its mission to offer authorized, saving ordinances to the world, and it cannot abdicate that mission. I would only substitute "the Holy Catholic Church" for "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". Some people are so earthly minded that they can do no heavenly good. We have differences Kenngo. Not insignificant. But God help us to be together in the day of Jesus Christ. Well said. 8
jwhitlock Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 I would only substitute "the Holy Catholic Church" for "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". Some people are so earthly minded that they can do no heavenly good. We have differences Kenngo. Not insignificant. But God help us to be together in the day of Jesus Christ. Well said. It is significant when people of good will in different denominations come together to accomplish things in the spirit of what Christ would do. The increased positive interaction between Catholics and Mormons has been, I think, pleasing to God. 3
Stargazer Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Starting this thread for The SkepticChristian, whose "limited' status precludes him from starting his own threads. He learned his lesson after asking me to do it, and then saw that I took over his thread and bent it to my own evil purposes! 2
Kenngo1969 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 I would only substitute "the Holy Catholic Church" for "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". Some people are so earthly minded that they can do no heavenly good. We have differences Kenngo. Not insignificant. But God help us to be together in the day of Jesus Christ. Well said.If you're not in Heaven, Rory, then I certainly don't want to go! I daresay that what unites us is far, far more significant than what divides us. I wish you well. 2
MiserereNobis Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Can someone clarify what it means to "bring Christianity back"? Right now, people love Pope Francis. But their love of him doesn't mean the Catholic Church is Christ's Church, anymore than the dislike of a Pope (such as Pope Julius II or Pope Alexander VI) means that the Catholic Church isn't Christ's Church. Christ's Church is Christ's Church because it is Christ's Church. (an arguable tautology, ha!) 1
Kenngo1969 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) I want God and His servants to tell me what I need to know, not simply what I want to hear: Sadly enough . . . it is a characteristic of our age that if people want any gods at all, they want them to be gods who do not demand much, comfortable gods, smooth gods who not only don’t rock the boat but don’t even row it, gods who pat us on the head, make us giggle, then tell us to run along and pick marigolds. Talk about man creating God in his own image! Sometimes—and this seems the greatest irony of all—these folks invoke the name of Jesus as one who was this kind of “comfortable” God. Really? He who said not only should we not break commandments, but we should not even think about breaking them. And if we do think about breaking them, we have already broken them in our heart. Does that sound like “comfortable” doctrine, easy on the ear and popular down at the village love-in? And what of those who just want to look at sin or touch it from a distance? Jesus said with a flash, if your eye offends you, pluck it out. If your hand offends you, cut it off. “I came not to [bring] peace, but a sword,” He warned those who thought He spoke only soothing platitudes. No wonder that, sermon after sermon, the local communities “pray[ed] him to depart out of their coasts.” No wonder, miracle after miracle, His power was attributed not to God but to the devil. It is obvious that the bumper sticker question “What would Jesus do?” will not always bring a popular response. -Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, "The Cost--and Blessings--of Discipleship," General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, April 2014, available here and last accessed October 23, 2015: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/the-cost-and-blessings-of-discipleship?lang=eng Edited October 24, 2015 by Kenngo1969 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) I want God and His servants to tell me what I need to know, not simply what I want to hear: and that is what Pope Francis is doing. Many Americans don't like that stuff he is saying. I also like the fact that he saying that climate change is the greatest threat to the poor and weak. It is a moral issue and should be a bipartisan issue. PS Many here are extremely tired of that topic, but Christianity should be compassion. Edited October 24, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
Kenngo1969 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 It is significant when people of good will in different denominations come together to accomplish things in the spirit of what Christ would do. The increased positive interaction between Catholics and Mormons has been, I think, pleasing to God.I do, too. I've said in other places here that one benefit of the increased antipathy toward religion is that people who now are hesitant to stand with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will quickly conclude (speaking metaphorically and not literally) that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," and "We must all hang together, lest we all hang separately." 1
Kenngo1969 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) and that is what Pope Francis is doing. Many Americans don't like that stuff he is saying. I also like the fact that he saying that climate change is the greatest threat to the poor and weak. It is a moral issue and should be a bipartisan issue. Far be it from me to disagree with someone as venerable as Pope Francis, but I should think that the biggest threat to the poor and the weak is their poverty and weakness. If we need to fix global warming, by all means, let's do that, but I think we also need to be cognizant of the fact that it is unfair to yoke third-world nations and their inhabitants with primary responsibility of combating global warming when they lack the tools to do that because of a lack of basic economic infrastructure. As serious a threat as global warming might be, it's difficult for me to argue that someone in the third world should care about it when he lacks even the basic economic wherewithal to put clothes on his back, food on his table, and a roof over his head. Those primary needs must be met before anyone can seriously argue that such countries, their inhabitants, and their governments should (or can) do anything about global warming. My $0.02. Your mileage likely varies. Vive la difference! Edited October 24, 2015 by Kenngo1969 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 24, 2015 Author Posted October 24, 2015 and that is what Pope Francis is doing. Many Americans don't like that stuff he is saying. I also like the fact that he saying that climate change is the greatest threat to the poor and weak. It is a moral issue and should be a bipartisan issue. PS Many here are extremely tired of that topic, but Christianity should be compassion.Global warming? When did Jesus talk about global warming?
MiserereNobis Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Global warming? When did Jesus talk about global warming Oh, dear. So you only live by the words of Jesus that He uttered 2000 years ago? No continuing revelation? No application of His words to our current day by someone in authority? By chance, you're not an evangelical, are you? 4
volgadon Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 For me, personally, Pope Francis cannot hold a candle to John Paul II. He seems to have had a genuinely simple touch as opposed to Francis's populism. Now, I don't mean populism disparagingly, nor am I implying insicerity, it is just a describer for a type of approach 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Global warming? When did Jesus talk about global warming? Psalms 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.Mormon 8:39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?D&C 59:20 And it pleaseth God that hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion There is a lot of evidence that Global Warming will make the poor suffer. We are causing Global Warming. When did Jesus talk about the politics of religious freedom? 1
volgadon Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Pope Francis, though, seems to have a romanticized view of poverty that borders on considering it a wonderful thing. 2
MiserereNobis Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Pope Francis, though, seems to have a romanticized view of poverty that borders on considering it a wonderful thing. They say the meek shall inheritYou know the Book doesn't lieIt's not a question of meritOr demand and supply (the Gospel plus Catholicism plus Oz ) 4
hagoth7 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Global warming? When did Jesus talk about global warming?Well, I vaguely recall a passage about ice flowing... And I also vaguely recall at least one other passage about the earth being renewed to a garden state. Are such things associated with global cooling?
why me Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Starting this thread for The SkepticChristian, whose "limited' status precludes him from starting his own threads.Pope Francis is one of the first media smart popes. His message is geared for the working and middle classes. But is it christlike or is it just plain ol' populism? One reason for asking this question is quite simple: the catholic church has not changed much in its policies. But he is speaking out for issues that are rather popular at the moment to discuss. The catholic church still has billions of dollars in assets. Certainly not a poor church. And no matter where he decides to sleep, he still has a woderful palace to walk around in. I don't think that the exlds would let the lds church get away with such 'populism'. The problem with this pope is quite simple: it is all based on him, and his message and charisma. It is not so much based on christ and his message. And so, when he is no longer pope, what will happen then? Most likely the catholic church will need a new focal point, another charimatic pope from the third world who sticks to the current populism or some other sort of focul point that doesn't bleed members. Certainly, the days of pope benedict type popes are over. But are they? Of course, speaking about materialism, poverty and climate change are important. But are catholics who wandered now towing the line: no birth control, not living unmarried together, practicing chasity, attending mass every sunday and following the doctrines of the church etc? Now that is the question as to whether the pope is bringing catholics closer to christ or bringing christianity back. In these days of secularism, a cotton-candy pope would be popular. But once the catholic church puts its doctrine on center stage again, the catholic church will lose its popularity with the secular media and those that came back into the church will probably leave again. . Edited October 24, 2015 by why me
Avatar4321 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Psalms 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.Mormon 8:39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?D&C 59:20 And it pleaseth God that hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion There is a lot of evidence that Global Warming will make the poor suffer. We are causing Global Warming. When did Jesus talk about the politics of religious freedom?Which is why it hasn't gotten warmer in recent history.No one opposes his efforts to encourage people to take care of the poor. It's his efforts encouraging governments to take from some to give to others that has people concerned.When a person gives of himself, that's charity. Both He and the receiver of the gift are blessed by the Lord. Both can be uplifted and edified.When a govern takes from one person to give to another, there is no generosity. No charity. No recognition of a gift because there is no gift. There is only robbery, which is the very definition of taking from one to give to another. We are warned quite extensively against robbery in the Book of Mormon and anyone can see that encouraging politicians to rob their citizens can be a very bad thing. It burdens the people and those who are supposed to benefit from it the most usually don't benefit at all. Instead the politicians have their friends and family benefit.Moreover when something is done grudgingly there is no blessing. 2
saemo Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Pope Francis, though, seems to have a romanticized view of poverty that borders on considering it a wonderful thing.rThere are people who live in poverty, which is what Pope Francis teaches should not be ignored, and like Jesus said, paraphrasing...if you have two of something give away one of that something to someone who needs it. That type of poverty, is voluntarily aligning oneself to the poor, which is indeed, a wonderful thing. And not in a Romantic way, but in a Spiritual way. Edited October 24, 2015 by saemo 1
Damien the Leper Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Which is why it hasn't gotten warmer in recent history.No one opposes his efforts to encourage people to take care of the poor. It's his efforts encouraging governments to take from some to give to others that has people concerned.When a person gives of himself, that's charity. Both He and the receiver of the gift are blessed by the Lord. Both can be uplifted and edified.When a govern takes from one person to give to another, there is no generosity. No charity. No recognition of a gift because there is no gift. There is only robbery, which is the very definition of taking from one to give to another. We are warned quite extensively against robbery in the Book of Mormon and anyone can see that encouraging politicians to rob their citizens can be a very bad thing. It burdens the people and those who are supposed to benefit from it the most usually don't benefit at all. Instead the politicians have their friends and family benefit.Moreover when something is done grudgingly there is no blessing.I am so very thankful to God that the Gospel is not Libertarian in any possible way and does not model the Kingdom after philosophies and ideologies similar to Murray Rothbard, Karl Hess or Ayn Rand. That would be like trying to shove the Celestial Kingdom into the same breathing space as Outer Darkness. No thanks! Edited October 24, 2015 by Valentinus 1
Tony Frank Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 The prophet Joseph Smith brought Christianity back when the only true gospel was restored. The Catholic Church has always proclaimed that the Pope is the "substitute" for Christ.
Damien the Leper Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 The prophet Joseph Smith brought Christianity back when the only true gospel was restored. The Catholic Church has always proclaimed that the Pope is the "substitute" for Christ.That's a truth claim and not a fact. IOW, the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Just for the sake of clarity.
Recommended Posts