Calm Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) . The Catholic Church has always proclaimed that the Pope is the "substitute" for Christ.CFR Edited October 24, 2015 by Calm 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) No one opposes his efforts to encourage people to take care of the poor. It's his efforts encouraging governments to take from some to give to others that has people concerned. There are Libertarian solutions to fight Global Warming, nuclear plants for example. There is no need to deny such an important moral issue that true Christians need to fight. When a govern takes from one person to give to another, there is no generosity. No charity Pope Francis is the new Brigham Young Brigham Young said, "If you do not pursue a righteous course, we will separate you from the Church. Is that all? No. If necessary we will take your grain from your bin and distribute it among the poor and needy, and they shall be fed and supplied with work, and you shall receive what your grain is worth.” Brigham Young also said, "“There shall be no private ownership of the streams that come out of the canyons, nor the timber that grows on the hills. These belong to the people: all the people.” Pope Francis is not saying the government needs to help the poor, he is saying the people need to help the poor. Moreover when something is done grudgingly there is no blessing. Should we have government laws? It is like saying that we shouldn't have anti-violence laws so we can show our own non-violence. Anyways, I didn't say anything about the government. Pope Francis is talking about stuff that people need to hear. Pope Francis is talking about our world problems, just like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did. More importantly, Pope Francis is teaching us how to help the poor. Edited October 24, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Pope Francis is talking strongly about helping the poor and weak. Many religious leaders talk about gay marriage more. 1
saemo Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Is it possible that Pope Frank is encouraging a minor form of monasticism? Just curious. He's encouraging discipleship. 1
Teancum Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Can someone clarify what it means to "bring Christianity back"? Right now, people love Pope Francis. But their love of him doesn't mean the Catholic Church is Christ's Church, anymore than the dislike of a Pope (such as Pope Julius II or Pope Alexander VI) means that the Catholic Church isn't Christ's Church. Christ's Church is Christ's Church because it is Christ's Church. (an arguable tautology, ha!) Indeed
Teancum Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Global warming? When did Jesus talk about global warming? Don't you believe in continuous revelation? Was global warming or climate change an issue when Jesus lived? Well it is today. 1
Damien the Leper Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 He's encouraging discipleship.Always. But, for me, there's always something a little more profound in the counsel and stewardship of Pope Francis and Patriarch Bartholomew. 1
Teancum Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 The prophet Joseph Smith brought Christianity back when the only true gospel was restored. The Catholic Church has always proclaimed that the Pope is the "substitute" for Christ. CFR please that the Catholic Church has always proclaimed that the Pope is the "substitute" for Christ. And is it not the LDS Church that teaches to really know the true Jesus one must accept JS as a prophet? Didn't Brigham Young teach Joseph Smith would judge this dispensation and we would have to pass by him to get into the celestial kingdom? How is this different from what you think the Catholic Church teaches about their Pope?
3DOP Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) CFR Tony is probably referencing the fact that we often refer to the pope as "vicar of Christ". Substitute is not the best synonym because that can imply that there is an equivalency between the two that is obviously not present. Think of the substitute teacher. We prefer the term vicar because we believe that the pope receives authority from Christ vicariously. An internet definition helps here: Vicariously is the adverb form of the word vicarious, which also involves experiencing something through another person. The Latin influence is the word vicarius, which means “substitute.” If you experience something vicariously, in a sense you’re a substitute who’s getting something secondhand. ---http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/vicariously The universal pastor receives gifts and authority second hand from Christ. Think of the substitute teacher again. We are in a good class and wish we had our teacher with us, but for good reasons our teacher cannot be present, so he sends someone with a special message to more effectively represent him personally, and also with the authority to discipline the class just as our regular teacher would if he were there. "Hmmm," we say to ourselves, "maybe we should pay respectful attention?" This does not mean that every pope is automatically faithful to represent Jesus Christ. That is why Miserere Nobis fall under no kind of censure from knowledgable Catholics for mentioning a couple of bad popes in history. Shoot. In Dante's classic, the Divine Comedy, he shows us at least one pope appearing with the cast of the damned in his first volume, The Inferno. (This is not to say that the Church agrees that this pope is in Hell. Dante is literature, not history. Speculation is permissible. It just means that Catholics should know that popes and bishops can go to Hell, and especially those who could lead souls astray.) As Christ's vicar, woe be to him if he should confuse and mislead "the class" with novelties or outright contradictions of previous vicars. If the faithful can perceive this to be the case, as rarely happens, there is no license to vilify the man, but neither are they obliged to follow him. Rory Edited October 24, 2015 by 3DOP 4
why me Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Tony is probably referencing the fact that we often refer to the pope as "vicar of Christ". Substitute is not the best synonym because that can imply that there is an equivalency between the two that is obviously not present. Think of the substitute teacher. We prefer the term vicar because we believe that the pope receives authority from Christ vicariously. RoryI think that tony was referring to confession and how the priest acts as a subsitute for christ when he hears confessions. I think that he confused this with what he said. It does happen sometimes.
why me Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) He's encouraging discipleship.Maybe. However, if he were encouraging discipleship he would be more focused on catholic dogma. One cannot be a disciple if one just helps the poor and yet, practices birth control, continues to live an unchaste life, lives with someone out of wedlock, etc. The pope is very populistic in his speeches. He says all the right words and brings charisma to his visits. But I cant say that catholics are more holy now with this pope. I think that very few catholics who weren't living catholic teaching before pope francis are now beginning to do so. In this article in the NYT, it seems that the pope is not leading the church at all. Rather, it is the bishops and cardinals. It seems that the pope is sidelined. However, the pope is out there with secular issues such a climate change etc. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/world/europe/voice-is-sought-at-the-vatican-on-remarriage.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0 Edited October 24, 2015 by why me
Robert F. Smith Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Can someone clarify what it means to "bring Christianity back"? Right now, people love Pope Francis. But their love of him doesn't mean the Catholic Church is Christ's Church, anymore than the dislike of a Pope (such as Pope Julius II or Pope Alexander VI) means that the Catholic Church isn't Christ's Church. Christ's Church is Christ's Church because it is Christ's Church. (an arguable tautology, ha!)I think what people may have in mind is best captured in the recent essay at Sojourners, by Lisa Sharon Harper, who is an Evangelical. https://sojo.net/articles/popeindc-evangelical-s-zacchaeus-moment . Some people think that what St Francis of Assisi, and Mother Teresa, and Sojourners have been committed to is more in line with the wishes of Jesus Christ, than what we see taking place in great institutional religion -- necessary as it may be. Often, the rules and administrative functions become ends in themselves, something Jesus was critical of.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Maybe. However, if he were encouraging discipleship he would be more focused on catholic dogma. One cannot be a disciple if one just helps the poor and yet, practices birth control, continues to live an unchaste life, lives with someone out of wedlock, etc. The pope is very populistic in his speeches. He says all the right words and brings charisma to his visits. But I cant say that catholics are more holy now with this pope. I think that very few catholics who weren't living catholic teaching before pope francis are now beginning to do so. In this article in the NYT, it seems that the pope is not leading the church at all. Rather, it is the bishops and cardinals. It seems that the pope is sidelined. However, the pope is out there with secular issues such a climate change etc. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/world/europe/voice-is-sought-at-the-vatican-on-remarriage.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0Your reading of this Pope is at complete variance with reality, and there are Catholics who have stated publicly their return to the faith because of him. This is a man whose extraordinary concern for the poor in Argentina (where he was an archbishop) is regularly noted. That may be secular to you, but it is the work of Christ. ETA: Pope Francis is dedicated to decentralization of his Church -- he wants his bishops and cardinals to run things locally. Is that a bad thing in your view? Edited October 24, 2015 by Robert F. Smith 1
Avatar4321 Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 I am so very thankful to God that the Gospel is not Libertarian in any possible way and does not model the Kingdom after philosophies and ideologies similar to Murray Rothbard, Karl Hess or Ayn Rand. That would be like trying to shove the Celestial Kingdom into the same breathing space as Outer Darkness. No thanks!Funny, I didn't mention libertarians at all.I am talking about the principles clearly spelled out in the scriptures such as D&C 121. The fact that the Lord expects us to come to Him voluntarily with a broken heart and a contrite Spirit. Mormon teaching his son that a gift given grudging is like giving no gift at all.How then can we expect to gain the blessings of given of instead of freely giving others take from us? 2
Avatar4321 Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 Pope Francis is talking strongly about helping the poor and weak. Many religious leaders talk about gay marriage more.Perhaps instead of talking about it we do something instead? 1
Avatar4321 Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 Don't you believe in continuous revelation? Was global warming or climate change an issue when Jesus lived? Well it is today.No. It really isn't. 1
Tony Frank Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 CFR The Catholic Church proclaims that the Pope is the "Vicar of Christ." It is actually a title given to the Pope. The word "vicar" comes from the Latin word vicarius, meaning "a substitute, deputy, proxy."
Avatar4321 Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 You do realize we ordain men to act as a proxy for Christ don't you? What do you think the priesthood is? By whose authority do you think we act? 4
Robert F. Smith Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 The Catholic Church proclaims that the Pope is the "Vicar of Christ." It is actually a title given to the Pope. The word "vicar" comes from the Latin word vicarius, meaning "a substitute, deputy, proxy."In German Der Stellvertreter.
Tony Frank Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 Don't you believe in continuous revelation? Was global warming or climate change an issue when Jesus lived? Well it is today. The Catholic Church maintains that there will be no prophecy or revelation beyond what is contained in the Bible.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 You do realize we ordain men to act as a proxy for Christ don't you? What do you think the priesthood is? By whose authority do you think we act?The Pope, as Vicar of Christ on Earth, acts on his behalf and possesses the Keys of the Kingdom of God on Earth. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 The Catholic Church maintains that there will be no prophecy or revelation beyond what is contained in the Bible.Why then does the Catholic Church tout continued revelation, both to Pope and laity? 1
3DOP Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 The Catholic Church maintains that there will be no prophecy or revelation beyond what is contained in the Bible.This is inaccurate. As you appear to understand it, your comment about substitution is also inaccurate. 4
3DOP Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 I am so very thankful to God that the Gospel is not Libertarian in any possible way and does not model the Kingdom after philosophies and ideologies similar to Murray Rothbard, Karl Hess or Ayn Rand. That would be like trying to shove the Celestial Kingdom into the same breathing space as Outer Darkness. No thanks!Ah...yes. There seems little likelihood that Pope Francis would be mistaken as a disciple of any of those. What about a different, more famous Karl? How do you think Marxism lines up with the Gospel?
Storm Rider Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 Pope Francis is, in some ways, a breath of fresh air. He seems to be willing to talk about love and acceptance without constraints. This is a good message, but incomplete. He seems to have forgot the deeper discussions of holiness, righteousness, and abandoning sin. These two messages go together; they are both eternal principles. Many of us need to hear and implement what Pope Francis presents to the world; however, he leaves too many things to vague innuendo, which leaves me uncomfortable. I knew where Pope Benedict stood, I knew where Pope John Paul II stood. I don't know where Pope Francis stands on a great number of issues.
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