Is Pope Francis Bringing Christianity Back?

[why me]

Socialism in Europe has been democratic socialism, about which Americans know nearly nothing, and it has actually been quite successful.  However, we do have a mixed economy here in the States, which includes elements of socialism.

Actually, it has social democracy which is nothing more but another form of capitalism. It has been called modern liberalism. It focused on the welfare policies and each european society had its own definition for what it is. What is social democracy? Basically, it rescues workers and others who have been displaced by the capitalist system. Bur that system has disappeared, being replaced by neoliberal market relations. Thus, the increase in poverty, social exclusion and inequality in europe. Something which the pope is attempting to address. But he offers no solutions.

 

Here is an interesting link about the EU:

 

http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/economy/over-fourth-of-lithuanias-population-at-risk-of-poverty.d?id=69300364

 

http://www.inequalitywatch.eu/spip.php?article99〈=en

 

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/People_at_risk_of_poverty_or_social_exclusion

 

 

 

The situation in europe is terrible and with the added pressure of a couple million migrants crossing its border will not help the situation. The pope, speaking about poverty, is an empty shell. He offers no solutions, no ideology to replace the neoliberal world order that stresses profit at the expense of social programs and collective wellbeing.

Edited October 26, 2015 by why me

[TheSkepticChristian]

 So far, in all the verbal vomiting we hear about doing something, nobody has come up with anything that is going to stop the problem.  

 

I am glad you at least do not deny the Global Warming Theory. You earn respect for that. However, we must try our best to do something about it. 

 

That's interesting, because during the last interglacial period it was warmer than that. The North Sea alone was 2 degrees warmer than in the present, and the sea level was 8 meters higher than now. The climate was also more unstable during that interglacial, with sudden shifts that we haven't seen the like of during this interglacial.

 

 North Sea is not global climate.  "As the Earth moved out of ice ages over the past million years, the global temperature rose a total of 4 to 7 degrees Celsius over about 5,000 years. In the past century alone, the temperature has climbed 0.7 degrees Celsius, roughly ten times faster than the average rate of ice-age-recovery warming." - NASA Earth Observatory

 

The global climate was much warmer than today during a geologic period known as the Neoproterozoic between 600 and 800 million years ago.  The Sun was  4% dimmer.  CO2 ended a super ice age known as snowball Earth, and made our planet very warm. That is the power of CO2 + Sun. 

 

Please read 

Earth's Past Climate Reveals Future Global Warming

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earth-s-past-climate-reveals-future-global-warming/

 

 

  What will work to stop the digging? 

 

Fusion. We need more science funding. 

Edited October 26, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[3DOP]

Apparently you did not pick up on the fact that my post was a gentle mockery of TheSkepticChristian who was trying to derail the Elder Oaks separation of church and state thread by incessantly asking the irrelevant question, "Where did Jesus talk about religious freedom?" and by putting up distracting graphics in post after post. I started this thread for him (he can't start threads of his own) as a means of giving him someplace to vent without hijacking or trying to shout down the other thread.

 

Perhaps you can see the irony (some might call it hypocrisy) of his connecting the teachings of Jesus with climate change with no clearer of a tie-in to the Biblical teachings of Jesus than there is a tie-in between religious freedom and the Biblical teachings of Jesus.

 

Incidentally, I can make a case that Jesus Christ talked about principles embodied in the U.S. Constitution -- and referred directly thereto -- in revelations contained in the Doctrine and Covenants. Perhaps TheSkepticChristian does not accept the Doctrine and Covenants revelations as containing the authentic words of Jesus Christ, but his unbelief is not binding on others -- particularly on this board, which is primarily intended to discuss the beliefs of Mormonism.

 

Hey Scott. So you wanted to get rid of global warming on an otherwise interesting thread so you started a thread anticipating that it would become a global warming thread? You are dethpicable! 

 

This wasn't a bad thread either, until it turned into...the weather...again...So boring.

[TheSkepticChristian]

This wasn't a bad thread either, until it turned into...the weather...again...So boring.

 

Your Pope doesn't think it is boring. Your Pope is not only concerned about Global Warming, he is also concerned about pollution. 

It is a fact that pollution kills thousands of people every year in the USA alone. Sulfur dioxide (SO2) is one of a group of highly reactive gasses known as “oxides of sulfur.” The largest sources of SO2 emissions are from fossil fuel combustion at power plants (73%) and other industrial facilities (20%). Nitrogen oxides pollution causes ground level ozone, or smog, which can burn lung tissue, exacerbate asthma, and make people more susceptible to chronic respiratory diseases. A typical uncontrolled coal plant emits 10,300 tons of NOx per year.

 

So boring, but where is the Christianity? 

 

TheSkepticChristian does not accept the Doctrine and Covenants revelations as containing the authentic words of Jesus Christ,

 

LOL the D&C doesn't talk about the politics of religious freedom and gay marriage. The D&C does talk about helping the poor.    

Edited October 26, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Storm Rider]

Still sounds like a square peg being forced into a round hole.  

[Tony Frank]

In the Latin West, the attitude of the scholastics to prophecy was complex, but for the famed doctor of the Roman Catholic Church, Thomas Aquinas, revelation still stood at the basis of God's relationship to man.

"Thomas Aquinas expresses in his De ente et essentia the relationship between the Creator and the fallen creature. According to the idea of the analogia entis, an analogy will always exist between God and man. This analogy is based in man’s being created in God’s image, which is expressed primarily in man’s reason, the direct place of encounter between him and God. For Thomas and the entire Scholastic tradition, reason is seen as the umbilical cord between God and man, and yet reason in itself will never suffice to fully understand and know God. Even if the analogia entis teaching expresses that there is and remains an analogy between God and man, it is far more important to acknowledge in this analogy a greater difference: while man and God can meet, this meeting can occur only on the condition that God never can be completely or fully comprehended.

This continued analogy guarantees the possibility that God can lift the veil that lies between himself and man and communicate himself to man. Although before the Fall there was continued openness, after it revelation was required whereby man might commune with God. And if the continued analogy makes continued revelation possible, God’s love makes it necessary. During the entire history of Israel, the prophets are the champions of continued openness and communication between God and man, his instruments through which he seeks to reestablish the broken unity. It is this revealing activity of God’s love that is continued in the vocation of the Christian prophets, whereby Christian prophecy may be seen as the most immediate expression of God’s revealing activity. It is immediate because not only is it a sign of God’s general revealing activity, but it is, in itself, a type of experienced revelation."[9]

Here, too, man experiences direct communication from God, and this experience is to culminate in man's ultimate goal- union with God.

"Prophecy is revealing in its mode, inasmuch the prophet considers his or her experience a form of direct communication from God through which God reveals his truths. Second, Prophecy is revealing in its scope, inasmuch as God through the prophet seeks to attain the goal of his activity, namely, to lead man back to his original union with God."[10]

[9]Niels Christian Hvidt, Christian Prophecy: the Post Biblical Tradition, p. 124

[10]Ibid., p. 125.

http://calba-savua.blogspot.com/2013/09/celebrations-of-learned-men-nibley.html?m=1

 

Nothing in your post contradicts my statement that the Catholic Church maintains that there will be no prophecy or revelation beyond what is contained in the Bible. Your post contains the words of a wise and learned man, but it says nothing about any prophets or revelation coming forth since the Roman Emperor Constantine called together the Nicene Council to put an end to escalating controversies among the church leaders, which was contributing to the decline of the Roman Empire. The author claims that there were "Christian prophets" and "Christian prophecy," but he makes no statements about who they were or about any prophecies that came forth.

[phaedrus ut]

I respect Pope Francis much like I respect the Dalai Lama.  I made not adhere to their religious beliefs but I respect their moral conscience and I find myself in agreement with many of their opinions.  I consider Pope Francis to be behaving in a much more Christian manner than his predecessors and peers among other Christian churches and I believe his ethics to be very Christian. 

 

Phaedrus

[Russell C McGregor]

and that is what Pope Francis is doing. Many Americans don't like that stuff he is saying. 

I also like the fact that he saying that climate change is the greatest threat to the poor and weak. 

It is a moral issue and should be a bipartisan issue. 

 

PS Many here are extremely tired of that topic, but Christianity should be compassion. 

Then please have some compassion upon those who've grown tired of your one-note symphony about "climate change."

 

 

 

[TheSkepticChristian]

Then please have some compassion upon those who've grown tired of your one-note symphony about "climate change."

 

It is like saying

 

Then please have some compassion upon those who've grown tired of your one-note symphony about "climate change." poverty, world hunger, pollution.  

 

Where is the Christianity?  Pope Francis is bringing Christianity back. 

 

 

 I consider Pope Francis to be behaving in a much more Christian manner than his predecessors and peers among other Christian churches and I believe his ethics to be very Christian. 

 

Thumbs up phaedrus ut

Edited October 26, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[3DOP]

Nothing in your post contradicts my statement that the Catholic Church maintains that there will be no prophecy or revelation beyond what is contained in the Bible. Your post contains the words of a wise and learned man, but it says nothing about any prophets or revelation coming forth since the Roman Emperor Constantine called together the Nicene Council to put an end to escalating controversies among the church leaders, which was contributing to the decline of the Roman Empire. The author claims that there were "Christian prophets" and "Christian prophecy," but he makes no statements about who they were or about any prophecies that came forth.

 

Do you require us to bury you in prophecies? I wasn't bluffing when I said that Catholic prophecy would easily outweigh the Standard works by 50 or 60 lbs. Probably closer to a ton. You say one thing and then I go to my bookshelf and pick up Catholic books that say the opposite. Why should I believe what you say about my church when you won't even listen to such an authority as St. Thomas Aquinas, referring to him as "the author"? Who do you think you are to claim to know more than St. Thomas about his own church? Who is he to you? Just some dumb guy who doesn't understand his own faith?

 

Tony, you have to let go of your private and demonstrably false interpretations of Catholic documents if you have any desire to understand what the Catholic Church teaches and believes. We have discussed what we call private and public revelation and you don't seem to have given it any consideration. In case it wasn't clearly explained I present it to you again. I am hoping that it was lack of clarity, rather than obstinacy that causes you to misunderstand what the Church means in the Catechism that you quoted.

 

From Prophecy For Today, by Edward Connor, originally published in 1956, republished 2101 by TAN Books, pages 2 and 3. This is from a chapter under the subheading, Private Prophecy:

 

"In the centuries since the canon of the Sacred Scripture was determined, many saints and mystics have claimed the gift of prophecy." 

 

 

The author goes on to note the main distinction between private and public revelation:

 

"No matter how great the saint, we have no guarantee that every word found in his or her writings is infallible, especially when it comes to prophecy."

 

 

It would really be rich if you want to complain about how the heavens are closed for us because we receive prophesies that lack the mark of infallibility which is unique to Sacred Scripture. But that is essentially what you are doing Tony. You who don't have one word of Scripture baring the mark of infallibility! I have been in arguments with LDS who criticise us because we believe in the infallibility of Scripture. Now you turn around and criticise us because we have prophecy that is fallible...just like your Scripture. And you have the impudence to say our heavens are closed? 

 

The author continues to instruct us using the words of Pope Benedict XIV to show that the gift of prophecy is extended to many more than just saints and mystics according to the Catholic faith:

"The recipients of prophecy may be angels, devils, men, women, children, heathens, or gentiles; nor is it necessary that a man should be gifted with any particular disposition in order to receive the light of prophecy provided his intellect and senses be adapted for making manifest the things which God reveals to him.

 

(source given is called Heroic Virtue III, 144:150)

 

You seem very confident in yourself. I assure you it is unfounded. You haven't listened to LDS who know you are wrong. You haven't listened to Catholics who know you are wrong. You are new here. Maybe you think volgadon is Catholic and Calm is Catholic? No. They are LDS all the way, but they don't sense any need to misrepresent my faith. I think you have leaned too heavily on an old LDS apologetic that  just doesn't hold up to the evidence. It seems like you think LDS gain if Catholics should inexplicably deny volumes of private revelation made by seers and prophets over the centuries. Otherwise, it seems like you would be glad to know that like you, we believe God continues in all times and all centuries to speak to his people as He promised for this age, "...your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams."

 

3DOP

Edited October 26, 2015 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

Then please have some compassion upon those who've grown tired of your one-note symphony about "climate change."

 

Yeah...actually Mr. Lloyd started this thread to get him out of a different one. It so happened that a bunch of other stuff, having to do with religion came up before we were led back to the subject of the weather. Myself, I am just trying to wrap up what is in effect two threads in one. One about religion and the other about the weather.  

[TheSkepticChristian]

Forget about global warming, what about pollution?  "True disciples, for instance, would be consistent environmentalists... preserving a rain forest; caring about preserving the nurturing capacity of a family as well as providing a healthy supply of air and water; caring for both the prevention and the treatment of the miseries caused by the disease" - Elder Maxwell 

 

Power plants are the largest source for several toxic air pollutants. Mercury emitted from these plants and other sources settles into water bodies where it subsequently accumulates in fish. Sulfur dioxide (SO2) is one of a group of highly reactive gasses known as “oxides of sulfur.” The largest sources of SO2 emissions are from fossil fuel combustion at power plants (73%) and other industrial facilities (20%). Nitrogen oxides pollution causes ground level ozone, or smog, which can burn lung tissue, exacerbate asthma, and make people more susceptible to chronic respiratory diseases. A typical uncontrolled coal plant emits 10,300 tons of NOx per year.

[Robert F. Smith]

..................................................................  

The situation in europe is terrible and with the added pressure of a couple million migrants crossing its border will not help the situation. The pope, speaking about poverty, is an empty shell. He offers no solutions, no ideology to replace the neoliberal world order that stresses profit at the expense of social programs and collective wellbeing.

Pope Francis offers no ideology because (like Mother Teresa) he is not an ideologue.  He has compassion, sets a good example, and has been working with the poor for many years in Argentina -- you may want to examine how he dealt with them there as archbishop.  He seems to be asking, WWJD?

[why me]

Pope Francis offers no ideology because (like Mother Teresa) he is not an ideologue.  He has compassion, sets a good example, and has been working with the poor for many years in Argentina -- you may want to examine how he dealt with them there as archbishop.  He seems to be asking, WWJD?

He lives in the vatican surrounded by wealth. Not such a great example. True, he is media smart and rides in a small fiat when he was in the US but he is surrounded by great wealth. And what is compassion? Speaking about the poor is not compassionate. Compassion is an active word. The word requires concrete action. His work with the poor did not lessen poverty but it did relieve some poverty by offering some comfort.The catholic church has spent much time working with the poor through catholic charities. They have existed in the US for a couple of centuries. Not much change in poverty at all because of a charity.

 

Mother Theresa was interesting. She did much for the poor in india and also spoke much about the poor in her travels. But it did not lessen poverty in india or in the world. What would jesus do? We have no idea what jesus would have done. We have such a small account of his life that we have no idea what he would do. And what we do know was written decades later by authors who wanted to increase the faith of his followers. And the world has certainly changed since jesus lived.

 

To eliminate poverty one must confront what causes poverty in the first place and create a system that puts people before profit. One that puts the social before capital. I believe that the pope knows this but says very little, if anything, about it.

 

Most charities are a capitalist's best friend. The charity does the work that the capitatist has created, especially when it comes to poverty. Without charities doing the work that the capitaliist has created, the capitalist system would have fallen years ago.

 

In order to confront the excesses of the capitalist system we all need to ask: what is to be done? The pope is doing his bit by bringing up the topics for discussion. But words are cheap and doing charity work is not the answer.

Edited October 27, 2015 by why me

[Scott Lloyd]

Hey Scott. So you wanted to get rid of global warming on an otherwise interesting thread so you started a thread anticipating that it would become a global warming thread? You are dethpicable! 

 

This wasn't a bad thread either, until it turned into...the weather...again...So boring.

Not quite correct.

 

He brought up global warming on this thread. On the other one, he kept trying to shut down discussion by incessantly asking where Jesus talked about religious freedom. In a somewhat mischievous vein, I asked him a parallel question here about global warming.

 

But you're right in that I started this thread to give him a playground to amuse himself in, hoping it would draw his attention away from our other thread. (It didn't work, by the way.)

 

But I'm glad you've found this thread useful in some respects at least.

[TheSkepticChristian]

But you're right in that I started this thread to give him a playground to amuse himself in, hoping it would draw his attention away from our other thread. (It didn't work, by the way.)

 

on the other thread I am now asking you about religious freedom, but you keep changing the subject

 

I respect Pope Francis much like I respect the Dalai Lama

 

. Me too. Pope Francis is not the only one warning us about Global Warming, Elder Oaks too. Elder Oaks prophesied that sea level rise on seacoast cities "will bring ocean tides to their doorsteps or over the thresholds"

 

Edited October 28, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Robert F. Smith]

He lives in the vatican surrounded by wealth. Not such a great example. True, he is media smart and rides in a small fiat when he was in the US but he is surrounded by great wealth. And what is compassion? Speaking about the poor is not compassionate. Compassion is an active word. The word requires concrete action. His work with the poor did not lessen poverty but it did relieve some poverty by offering some comfort.The catholic church has spent much time working with the poor through catholic charities. They have existed in the US for a couple of centuries. Not much change in poverty at all because of a charity.

 

Mother Theresa was interesting. She did much for the poor in india and also spoke much about the poor in her travels. But it did not lessen poverty in india or in the world. What would jesus do? We have no idea what jesus would have done. We have such a small account of his life that we have no idea what he would do. And what we do know was written decades later by authors who wanted to increase the faith of his followers. And the world has certainly changed since jesus lived.

 

To eliminate poverty one must confront what causes poverty in the first place and create a system that puts people before profit. One that puts the social before capital. I believe that the pope knows this but says very little, if anything, about it.

 

Most charities are a capitalist's best friend. The charity does the work that the capitatist has created, especially when it comes to poverty. Without charities doing the work that the capitaliist has created, the capitalist system would have fallen years ago.

 

In order to confront the excesses of the capitalist system we all need to ask: what is to be done? The pope is doing his bit by bringing up the topics for discussion. But words are cheap and doing charity work is not the answer.

Nonsense.  You clearly know next to nothing about the current Pope and what he has done, in and out of the Vatican.  He is an activist Pope, just as he was an activist Archbishop.  He didn't just talk the talk, he walked the walk in helping people and setting a strong personal example.  I can see that you are an ideologue, rather than a man of compassion.

 

Jesus was a man of compassion.  We know what Jesus would do, because of what he actually did during his ministry.  If Mother Teresa and Archbishop Bergoglio took your view to heart, they would never have made any effort to minister to the poor.  Thankfully, they believed in following Jesus Christ.

[why me]

Nonsense.  You clearly know next to nothing about the current Pope and what he has done, in and out of the Vatican.  He is an activist Pope, just as he was an activist Archbishop.  He didn't just talk the talk, he walked the walk in helping people and setting a strong personal example.  I can see that you are an ideologue, rather than a man of compassion.

 

So, what I previously wrote  is nonsense and I know nothing about the pope. And yet, you addressed nothing what I previously said. Just a personal attack by calling me an ideologue and not a man of compassion. Thank you for your judgement a sure sign of a man of compassion.

 

Jesus was a man of compassion.  We know what Jesus would do, because of what he actually did during his ministry.  If Mother Teresa and Archbishop Bergoglio took your view to heart, they would never have made any effort to minister to the poor.  Thankfully, they believed in following Jesus Christ.

 

What did jesus do? He did miracles and taught well. But when he was murdered, the poor were still poor and the jews were still being persecuted and they were occupied. Not much changed at all for the people living there. Mother Theresa created the Missionaries of Charity. And these sisters help the poor but do nothing to help the poor get out of poverty. I know this because I have been a volunteer for years for them.  To get people out of poverty one needs to give the poor and the dispossed and the marginalized the skills to see life politically and ideologically. A good read for teachers is Paolo Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed, a classic book for educators.

 

But this is not being an ideologue at all. When people vote they do ideology since they vote for an ideology. There are now more poor in the US than there was 8 years ago. Why? All the compassion in the world will not help those people get out of poverty. And what created the financial crisis of 2007/8? An ideology which created more poor.

 

I do believe that pope francis knows this but can not do anything about it but talk around the problem. Maybe he needs to embrace liberation theology more vocally which would make caltholic theology more liberatory for people living in poverty and give christianity more political clout. But if he does maybe he would then be called an ideolgoue by people who claim to be compassionate.

My response is in dark black. This is an interesting discussion that was on PBS:

 

 

Henry has been a great educator and he has written many books. I think that he is spot on with his words. And I believe that the pope would agree with him but can not speak these words publically.

Edited October 28, 2015 by why me