The Church Of Satan

[Calm]

"I'm not denying the credibility of the evidence"

Which you should be since that much of that evidence is originally from anti-Catholic sources and not credible historians. It is very unfortunate that are many of our early leaders carried that distain and distrust from their previous Protestant upbringings and then passed it down to their children so even today we have members such as yourself repeating lies as if they were truth.

Some Catholics screwed up big time. Understandable why Protestants broke off but then some Protestants repeated the same sort of crimes of oppression. Unfortunately this can happen with any group that gains political power. I think this is one of the reasons the Restoration was delayed until a time and place where communication was much more rapid and less able to be controlled by the established powers so there were more checks and balances in place so that oversight by both members and outsiders could ensure abuses would not take root even if they appeared. That and being able to go to areas that were less settled so there was less competition. I don't think if they had stayed in urban centers, the LDS Church would have been able to grow much at all.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Calm

[3DOP]

Admittedly some of my comments on this topic could be construed to be anti-Catholic but I assure you that its not my intention - I am just trying to discuss the issue that was brought forth about the Church of Satan and the old notion that it was the RCC. Unfortunately this is an uncomfortable topic for Catholics but I trust that you are mature enough to see this as mere discussion. In my opinion the 19th century notion of the RCC as the G&A is based on historical facts and my pointing it out is in line with the topic and it should not make me anti-Catholic anymore than a Catholic talking about our polygamous history should be considered an anti-Mormon. 

 

This is not an uncomfortable topic for Catholics. I reject your beliefs about the history of the Catholic Church as an alleged institution of murder. I know that you are uninformed. It seems like you intend to remain uninformed. I am only engaging you now to point out that no knowledgeable Catholic would be made uncomfortable by outrageous claims. On the contrary, it appears to me that the faith of some non-Catholics has always required a falsification of Catholic history, without which they would be uncomfortable regarding their choice of where to go to church. There is much advantage to many religious and political positions if people can be convinced that the Catholic Church is/was evil.

[jkwilliams]

This is not an uncomfortable topic for Catholics. I reject your beliefs about the history of the Catholic Church as an alleged institution of murder. I know that you are uninformed. It seems like you intend to remain uninformed. I am only engaging you now to point out that no knowledgeable Catholic would be made uncomfortable by outrageous claims. On the contrary, it appears to me that the faith of some non-Catholics has always required a falsification of Catholic history, without which they would be uncomfortable regarding their choice of where to go to church. There is much advantage to many religious and political positions if people can be convinced that the Catholic Church is/was evil.

 

Well said. Can I just say how impressed I am that you are able to stand up for your beliefs at the same time you are conciliatory and forgiving? You set a good example for me. Thanks.

[Bobbieaware]

This thread piqued my curiosity and for the fist time in my life, beyond what I have already read on the subject from LDS writers, I've done some research into the atrocities perpetrated over nearly 2 millennia in the name of God on the European continent. And if what happened there is only 1/10th as horrific as what is presented in the historical accounts I've been reading, then even if we are not talking about THE Great and Abominable Church prophesied by Nephi, then we are at very least talking about A great and abominable church. My heart is sickened by what I've learned and I can't help but think that when compared to the so-called evils allegedly perpetrated by the LDS Church (e,g, polygamy, the priesthood ban and erecting a shopping center), the flack the Church receives for these things seems to be out of all proportion to reason and fairness. And now I suppose I'll be flamed for what I've said here in a carefully measured and cautious manner. And so it goes in a politically correct era when stating that which is true and obvious is considered Immeasurably more destructive, disrespectful and hateful than telling pernicious lies. If things continue to retrograde at the current pace, there will soon be very few who will have the courage (foolhardiness?) to openly declare that the emperor has no clothes.

[Senator]

. And now I suppose I'll be flamed for what I've said here in a carefully measured and cautious manner..

 

Why do you always feel a need to preemptively poison the conversation?

[mfbukowski]

You need to read more about the history of the RCC, I suggest reading note 2 and 3 of chapter 3 of the Great Apostasy; or better yet: read the whole book. When the Saviour spoke to his disciples in Matt 24 about the events that will precede his second coming: he referred to events that they would experience in their life time and events that will occur in ours - a prophecy has many faces and may be fulfilled in many ways. This great and abominable church (founded by the devil) which killed the apostles (I speculate) was probably a secret combination started by the Jews who hated Christianity mixed with the Romans who also hated Christianity thus leading to the persecution of the saints and the destruction of the early church which continued until the formation of the Church of Rome which continued its abominable practices. Either way you look at it, the church of Constantine was not a force for good in the world at that time and through it and by it were thousands of innocent people sent to the spirit world. Later on it moved to all the world (as when Paul said that the gospel of the kingdom was preached in all the world) and sat upon many waters and entire civilizations were wiped out by it (Cortez, etc). The RCC is a much different church today but its history is inescapable and you can't start a topic about the Church of Satan and not expect that there will be some reference to the RCC and then get offended when such reference is made. Its like starting a topic about polygamy and not expect someone to comment about Brigham Young and Joseph Smith and their many wives or start a topic about skin colour and expect no mention of the priesthood ban and slavery. 

You know not with whom you contend.

 

Best wishes.  Better yet, take notes and do your research.

[mfbukowski]

Why do you always feel a need to preemptively poison the conversation?

Uh oh.

 

Sounds like a personal attack to me. 

[3DOP]

This thread piqued my curiosity and for the fist time in my life, beyond what I have already read on the subject from LDS writers, I've done some research into the atrocities perpetrated over nearly 2 millennia in the name of God on the European continent. And if what happened there is only 1/10th as horrific as what is presented in the historical accounts I've been reading, then even if we are not talking about THE Great and Abominable Church prophesied by Nephi, then we are at very least talking about A great and abominable church. My heart is sickened by what I've learned and I can't help but think that when compared to the so-called evils allegedly perpetrated by the LDS Church (e,g, polygamy, the priesthood ban and erecting a shopping center), the flack the Church receives for these things seems to be out of all proportion to reason and fairness. And now I suppose I'll be flamed for what I've said here in a carefully measured and cautious manner. And so it goes in a politically correct era when stating that which is true and obvious is considered Immeasurably more destructive, disrespectful and hateful than telling pernicious lies. If things continue to retrograde at the current pace, there will soon be very few who will have the courage (foolhardiness?) to openly declare that the emperor has no clothes.

 

Dear Bobbie, you and your husband are two of my favorite posters. I admire your zeal for truth, and for the record, the people who would be the best potential Catholics can be those who see how it is difficult to be neutral about Rome. If it isn't "Holy Mother Church", it seems reasonable to me to take your position. The question is about whether a balanced look at the historical record will support the position that Rome is the Unholy Church of Satan, or whether it exonerates the Roman Catholic Church.  

 

By your own admission, you have had only five days to study 2,000 years of history. I have dedicated a large proportion of my life to this question. I started out by reading the Two Babylons by Alexander Hyslop in the early 80's, maybe even late 70's. I was a non-Catholic, a Baptist minister by 1985 who believed as you do and preached that Rome was the Whore of Babylon. I eventually became convinced I had to look at both sides. Ten years later, I was received into the Catholic Church. Nothing you can show me about what people have said about my Holy Mother Church will surprise me. Maybe you are making a rash judgment? Were two and a half of the five days spent studying one side and two and a half the other side? Have you read the Catholic replies to the allegations? I would be willing to try to guide you to sources that will show that what you have accepted as probable has probably been distorted, inflated, and fabricated.

 

Sincere Regards,

 

Rory 

[mfbukowski]

"I'm not denying the credibility of the evidence"

Which you should be since that much of that evidence is originally from anti-Catholic sources and not credible historians. It is very unfortunate that are many of our early leaders carried that distain and distrust from their previous Protestant upbringings and then passed it down to their children so even today we have members such as yourself repeating lies as if they were truth.

Some Catholics screwed up big time. Understandable why Protestants broke off but then some Protestants repeated the same sort of crimes of oppression. Unfortunately this can happen with any group that gains political power. I think this is one of the reasons the Restoration was delayed until a time and place where communication was much more rapid and less able to be controlled by the established powers so there were more checks and balances in place so that oversight by both members and outsiders could ensure abuses would not take root even if they appeared. That and being able to go to areas that were less settled so there was less competition. I don't think if they had stayed in urban centers, the LDS Church would have been able to grow much at all.

Much of what I saw in Eastern Europe was based on "Christians" fighting "Christians".  Reformation and Counter-Reformation, Thirty Years War, Hapsburgs and Hussites.

 

That was one of the reasons I was seeking a discussion about the justification for religious violence, if any,  on the other thread, but that went south

 

Not pretty.   There is plenty of blame to go around on all sides.   The church of the devil is alive and well but it isn't in one central institution- it's clearly everywhere.

Edited October 14, 2015 by mfbukowski

[VideoGameJunkie]

Sometimes it seems that God is so loving and overly powerful for all the children who have ever lived on earth, that you have to ask if God really needs religion. When God's appeared to people, He appeared in mother nature, not in temples. He walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and appeared before Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove. Both places were mother nature. It's never been reported that God appeared to His church members in temples. Unless the prophets are hiding revelations from us.

[3DOP]

Sometimes it seems that God is so loving and overly powerful for all the children who have ever lived on earth, that you have to ask if God really needs religion. When God's appeared to people, He appeared in mother nature, not in temples. He walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and appeared before Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove. Both places were mother nature. It's never been reported that God appeared to His church members in temples. Unless the prophets are hiding revelations from us.

 

If the Gospel is true, if we are supposed to go, baptize and teach all things whatsoever Christ taught the Apostles, then yes. We need religion. Christ taught a community form of worship with sacraments and ordinances, and disciplines that cannot be observed individually, and are most suitably observed indoors together with other fellow believers. There are multiplied examples of miraculous claims associated with Catholic worship in Catholic churches. We could be accused of exaggerating God's presence before you could say God doesn't manifest Himself to His people in our churches.

 

As for your tradition, I guess I thought people did sometimes claim to see Jesus...in church settings. But even if you don't make that claim, unless you will baptize yourself, and ordain yourself, you need organized religion to be a follower of Jesus Christ according to the way He taught in the Gospels. 

Edited October 14, 2015 by 3DOP

[VideoGameJunkie]

Oh I'm sure people see Jesus a lot. I was talking about when God appeared.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Apostle Paul in Acts Chapter 17: The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything.

[Nemesis]

To the few posters that have turned this thread into Catholic bashing. We don't allow that. Continuing to do so will result in your banning.

Nemesis

[3DOP]

To the few posters that have turned this thread into Catholic bashing. We don't allow that. Continuing to do so will result in your banning.

Nemesis

 

Hi Nemesis,

 

I would regret not having an opportunity to clear up some misconceptions for people of good will who have heard the cries of the enemy who hates my church. There is truly a lot of real persuasive and effective propaganda out there for those who have done a little digging (in one spot) from those who claim the Catholic Church is evil. I don't see anybody here as having been "anti-Catholic" yet. I think "the few posters" you reference have only said what many if not most non-Catholics have been unfortunately led to believe about Catholic history. I would be shocked if many Mormons here know how to defend the Catholic Church against the historical allegations that have been made by the detractors of my faith. Shoot. Most modern Catholics have been led to think our history is indefensible. <sigh>

 

Of course I fully consent to your judgment on the matter, but for what it is worth, I would urge that perhaps "the few posters" be allowed just a little more freedom to express themselves before we decide that what they are saying are expressions of a malicious, anti-Catholic heart. God knows, but I tend to think that all of them truly mean well. Thanks for your consideration.

 

3DOP 

Edited October 15, 2015 by 3DOP

[Calm]

Did I say it was OK? .

You said he can't be faulted. What does that mean if not excusing the behaviour as okay?

[thesometimesaint]

The only thing I have said against the Catholic church is that I don't believe some of its Truth Claims. If I did I'd be Catholic.

[Maedros]

Coming back to the topic: Church of Satan, this church is the world or worldliness: Babylon the Great which started in the first century of the early Christian Church and continues to this very day; it includes all churches and ideologies that are not those of the (true) Church of the Lamb of God here are some excerpts from LDS leaders regarding this Church of Satan:

 

1 Nephi 14:10-11:
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

 

"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common orgin. They belong to Babylon." (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p.324)

 

"I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian Churches), for they were all wrong...that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

 

"Evil spirits control much of the so-called religious worship in the world; for instance, the great creeds of Christendom were formulated so as to conform to their whispered promptings." (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.246)

 

"It was the apostate Catholics that first originated the idea and by them the fatal delusion has been handed down from generation to generation; and all the children that she has brought forth, or that have left her communion, have, more or less, imbibed the same great features of the apostasy. Well might the Revelator John, speaking by the spirit of prophecy, call her "the Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth!" It is her true name, for all the "harlots" which she has brought forth have walked in the footsteps of their "Mother" in declaring against new revelation, and in pretending that ancient revelation is a sufficient rule of faith. It is to be expected that as is the Mother, so will be her Harlot daughters. ...In the meantime, another harlot daughter of the Catholics--the Lutherans..." - Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.40

 

"Both Catholics and Protestants [Evangelicals and any other religion or anti-religion] are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon! - The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255

 

Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great"—"The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned—the great—the mighty—the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109

Edited October 15, 2015 by Maedros

[Bobbieaware]

You said he can't be faulted. What does that mean if not excusing the behaviour as okay?

I was pointing out that it was not necessarily OK from OUR vantage point, not from McConkie's. Let's face it, since the terrifying to contemplate days of the Inquisition and the genocidal anti-Protestant wars, the RC church has gone through a major sort of reformation of its own -- a reformation that has served to render it a far less frightening organization. Elder McConkie grew up in a time before many of the moderating currents within the RC church were codified into official church law. And I believe the Inquisition wasn't even officially condemned by a Pope until John Paul II did so in 1982. It's easier to cut the RC church some slack from our vantage point than it was for McConkie in 1959.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[rodheadlee]

Nicely said.

 

(but still, ya'll should get a legit Catholic baptism! )

Is that like having dual passports?

[Tsuzuki]

Is that like having dual passports?

Yes. At least, that was my approach when I got my legit Catholic baptism and confirmation.

[Tacenda]

Hi Nemesis,

I would regret not having an opportunity to clear up some misconceptions for people of good will who have heard the cries of the enemy who hates my church. There is truly a lot of real persuasive and effective propaganda out there for those who have done a little digging (in one spot) from those who claim the Catholic Church is evil. I don't see anybody here as having been "anti-Catholic" yet. I think "the few posters" you reference have only said what many if not most non-Catholics have been unfortunately led to believe about Catholic history. I would be shocked if many Mormons here know how to defend the Catholic Church against the historical allegations that have been made by the detractors of my faith. Shoot. Most modern Catholics have been led to think our history is indefensible. <sigh>

Of course I fully consent to your judgment on the matter, but for what it is worth, I would urge that perhaps "the few posters" be allowed just a little more freedom to express themselves before we decide that what they are saying are expressions of a malicious, anti-Catholic heart. God knows, but I tend to think that all of them truly mean well. Thanks for your consideration.

3DOP

I was at the movies the other day where they showed a preview of a movie coming out about the sex abuse by Catholic Priests and the Catholic church covering them up. As I sat there I thought...the LDS church could be next...with a few of our lawsuits coming to light on the big screen. Both our churches are similar where there's so much money and each church claims they have authority from God, used by men, so alot harm can be done but neither make the churches untrue.

Here's an article I believe is where they discuss this movie soon to be out.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/movie-on-catholic-abuse-scandal-feared-to-be-exploitative/

ETA: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865597665/Recent-Utah-sex-abuse-cases-involving-teachers-leaders.html?pg=all

Edited October 15, 2015 by Tacenda

[3DOP]

I was pointing out that it was not necessarily OK from OUR vantage point, not from McConkie's. Let's face it, since the terrifying to contemplate days of the Inquisition and the genocidal anti-Protestant wars, the RC church has gone through a major sort of reformation of its own -- a reformation that has served to render it a far less frightening organization. Elder McConkie grew up in a time before many of the moderating currents within the RC church were codified into official church law. And I believe the Inquisition wasn't even officially condemned by a Pope until John Paul II did so in 1982. It's easier to cut the RC church some slack from our vantage point than it was for McConkie in 1959.

Hi Bobbie.

 

Which Inquisition and at what time? You do realize that like the Crusades, the Inquisitions had various forms and purposes, with various geographical and chronological manifestations? The one with which I am most familiar has detailed documentation of all Inquisitorial activity. This is because the officers of that Inquisition had clear consciences and expected posterity to praise rather than condemn what they did. They were right about how posterity would judge them if they had the facts. But the inquisitors I have in mind are seldom considered for what they did or said or what their motives were. Reading their side of the story, one realizes that unless we would be guilty of rash judgment, something the inquisitors were careful to avoid, we should balance our studies by considering the evidence from both sides.

 

If you want to talk about one of the Inquisitions with which you are familiar, let me know. It is possible that I can address your concerns from books on my shelf that I have already read. You don't have to be Catholic to believe that the "Black Legend", as the myth has come to be called by historians, has little to do with historical realities. Some of the best books are written by fair-minded non-Catholics and published by prestigious universities. The "Black Legend" which you have been learning about in the last six days is part of a 500 year propaganda campaign kept alive now mostly by Evangelicals who think they gain religious mileage if they can convince good people like you that the Catholic Church was a monster. Most of our political views in the West about relations of church and state were originally shaped from the faulty assumption that the "Black Legend" was real. If medieval Christianity is ever permitted to be presented to modern society apart from the Black Legend, it would eventually raise valid questions about our own institutions instead of ignorant assumptions about times and circumstances we don't bother to understand.

 

Bobbie, there is a good reason why no pope would condemn "the Inquisition" until 1982. It would be like condemning "the police". Which police? When, the police? Everywhere and always? It would be unintelligible. The pope couldn't just lump all Inquisitions into one. He would have to be more specific, and if John Paul said that everything about every Inquisition should be condemned, he knows better now that he is dead.

 

Rory

Edited October 15, 2015 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

I was at the movies the other day where they showed a preview of a movie coming out about the sex abuse by Catholic Priests and the Catholic church covering them up. As I sat there I thought...the LDS church could be next...with a few of our lawsuits coming to light on the big screen. Both our churches are similar where there's so much money and each church claims they have authority from God, used by men, so of alot harm can be done but neither make the churches untrue.

Here's an article I believe is where they discuss this movie soon to be out.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/movie-on-catholic-abuse-scandal-feared-to-be-exploitative/

 

ETA:  http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865597665/Recent-Utah-sex-abuse-cases-involving-teachers-leaders.html?pg=all

Hi Tacenda,

 

I am not familiar with any good refutations of the sex abuse scandal or the cover up by bishops and very high ranking prelates who were never disciplined in this life...at least not by the church. Unfortunately, I have to concede that I believe it, although I would entertain any attempt at refutation. The silence from the Catholic side seems to me to be an admission of guilt. I am afraid it must be true.

 

3DOP 

[Robert F. Smith]

Hi Tacenda,

 

I am not familiar with any good refutations of the sex abuse scandal or the cover up by bishops and very high ranking prelates who were never disciplined in this life...at least not by the church. Unfortunately, I have to concede that I believe it, although I would entertain any attempt at refutation. The silence from the Catholic side seems to me to be an admission of guilt. I am afraid it must be true.

 

3DOP 

Hi Rory,

The LDS Church and other churches have been affected by the same molestation problem which has affected the Roman Catholic Church, even though the size of the RC Church has meant that it is far more well-known due to many more instances being reported publicly.  Then too, the extent of the problem has been described by the RC National Review Board appointed by the U. S. Catholic Bishops as the bishops' fault for allowing the “smoke of Satan” to enter the Church, and for allowing some seminaries to be taken over by “a homoerotic culture,” which led to a tidal wave of child molestation (fully 10% of priests graduating from seminary in 1970 were subsequently accused of molestation).

 

The most insightful criticisms were levelled by loyal RC priests and canon lawyers, e.g., Thomas Doyle, Richard Sipe, and Patrick Wall, Outline of a Canonical History of Clerical Sexual Abuse (Precept Press, 2004), which covers 1,700 years of abuse by priests, and was based on Vatican records.   Thomas Doyle (canon lawyer and Dominican priest) attributed the failures to “medieval and monarchial” governance of the Church (National Catholic Reporter online at http://www.ncrnews.org/abuse 2005), and members of the LDS hierarchy and its legal staff should by now have learned a great deal from the pain suffered within Roman Catholicism.