Sanpitch Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) In my National Edition of the Deseret News that came today the front page is of Pope Francis with long articles about him. When I was young that church was the one mentioned in the BofM as the Church of Satan. 1 Nephi 14 9 "And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil. 10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." There must be a simple explanation for the above scripture and who it is referring to other than the Catholic because of the close association between the LDS and the Catholic Church. Anyone one have an answer? Maybe that no longer applies and if so why not? This must have been mauled over before but I don't remember of ever seeing an answer. Edited October 8, 2015 by Sanpitch
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Well in Joseph Smiths multiple versions of the first vision he did mention at least once that God said all other churches were an abomination in His eyes. 2
CA Steve Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Hmm, let me get out my first edition of Mormon Doctrine and see if I can find an answer to this one. 4
filovirus Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) It is all churches that are not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It refers to those churches with some, or all, teachings that are contrary to the Gospel of Christ and blind men with the precepts of men, mingled with scripture. There are still good men and women in those churches who are trying their hardest to do what Christ would have them do, but are missing aspects of the Lord's Gospel. ETA: I can add quotes and references, but due to time constraints right now, can just add a summary. Edited October 8, 2015 by filovirus 1
JAHS Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Hmm, let me get out my first edition of Mormon Doctrine and see if I can find an answer to this one. Here's what uncle Bruce said: "the great and abominable church," or "the church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner." (MD) Address Church leaders respectfully.
CA Steve Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Here's what uncle Bruce said: "the great and abominable church," or "the church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner." (MD)In his first edition, which I am not defending, he provides "two senses in which the title church of the devil and the great and abominable church are used." The one you gave is the first. The second one.... well I'll just quote him. The Roman Catholic Church specifically-singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being 'most abominable above all other churches". I wish he would not beat around the bush so much. 1
Popular Post Calm Posted October 9, 2015 Popular Post Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) Well in Joseph Smiths multiple versions of the first vision he did mention at least once that God said all other churches were an abomination in His eyes.No, he said their creeds were.There is a difference. Edited October 9, 2015 by Calm 5
JAHS Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 In his first edition, which I am not defending, he provides "two senses in which the title church of the devil and the great and abominable church are used." The one you gave is the first. The second one.... well I'll just quote him. I wish he would not beat around the bush so much.I think some earlier members of the Church also assumed it refered to the Catholic Church; Orson Pratt for one.
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 No, he said their creeds were.There is a difference. There's a long tradition in the church that "hireling" preachers were in the employ of Satan. I don't know how that's better than an abomination. 1
Sanpitch Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 No, he said their creeds were.There is a difference.I think in Joseph Smith's story most people would assume "sect" meant churches or faiths. 18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” 1
rewcox Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 When the primitive church fell into apostasy and then the dark ages, it was sad and serious. A lot has changed, most churches have many good things, there are a few doozies though...
rodheadlee Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 In my National Edition of the Deseret News that came today the front page is of Pope Francis with long articles about him. When I was young that church was the one mentioned in the BofM as the Church of Satan. 1 Nephi 14 9 "And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil. 10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." There must be a simple explanation for the above scripture and who it is referring to other than the Catholic because of the close association between the LDS and the Catholic Church. Anyone one have an answer? Maybe that no longer applies and if so why not? This must have been mauled over before but I don't remember of ever seeing an answer.Atheist Secular Humanism. It's not our sister churches. As a convert I look at the other Christian churches as grade school and high school. The Church Of Jesus Christ LDS is authorized University; The things I learned along the way from the other churches led me to the Church of Jesus Christ Latter- day Saints. When He returns they will join with us. 1
Storm Rider Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I think in Joseph Smith's story most people would assume "sect" meant churches or faiths. 18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” In English - he went to pray about what church he should join and was told to join none of them; that they were all wrong. Now here is the important part; it explain what was wrong with them. "...all their creeds were an abomination..." So what were the abominations? Not the churches, but their creeds. This is really easy and should not be causing any comprehension problems. 4
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 In English - he went to pray about what church he should join and was told to join none of them; that they were all wrong. Now here is the important part; it explain what was wrong with them. "...all their creeds were an abomination..." So what were the abominations? Not the churches, but their creeds. This is really easy and should not be causing any comprehension problems. It was just the professors who are corrupt. This could refer to preachers or those who profess faith in the abominable creeds. Either way, Jesus doesn't seem to think too highly of the other churches.
Sanpitch Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 In English - he went to pray about what church he should join and was told to join none of them; that they were all wrong. Now here is the important part; it explain what was wrong with them. "...all their creeds were an abomination..." So what were the abominations? Not the churches, but their creeds. This is really easy and should not be causing any comprehension problems. So what has changed between then and now in their creeds, I don't see a change but I'm not familiar with other churches?
Storm Rider Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 There have been those who supported the idea that the Catholic Church was the "great and abominable church". This is a leftover from the Protestant Reformation era that wanted to make the Catholic Church the evil empire. However, it was never the doctrine of the Church. If you read the scripture about the two churches the only thing that made sense to me was: 1) the church of the Lamb - this church is lead by Church of Jesus Christ and is joined and supported by all those who seek after Christ and the principles of Jesus' gospel. 2) The other church consists of those groups and/or individuals that promote iniquity and fight against God. It has been how I have interpreted that verse and it continues to work for me. 3
Storm Rider Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 So what has changed between then and now in their creeds, I don't see a change but I'm not familiar with other churches? Nothing has changed in their creeds; they have remained the same. Creeds remain an abomination to the Lord. Why are creeds such an abomination to God? Something to think about, but it centers on free agency.
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 There have been those who supported the idea that the Catholic Church was the "great and abominable church". This is a leftover from the Protestant Reformation era that wanted to make the Catholic Church the evil empire. However, it was never the doctrine of the Church. If you read the scripture about the two churches the only thing that made sense to me was: 1) the church of the Lamb - this church is lead by Church of Jesus Christ and is joined and supported by all those who seek after Christ and the principles of Jesus' gospel. 2) The other church consists of those groups and/or individuals that promote iniquity and fight against God. It has been how I have interpreted that verse and it continues to work for me. That's how I always interpreted it, as well. Like I said, however, those verses have been traditionally associated with orthodox Christianity and Catholicism in particular. I'm glad that has faded.
HappyJackWagon Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Us versus Them is always a powerful cohesive. The problem is it turns the rest of the world and the rest of Christianity into an enemy which is, at best, counterproductive. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Us versus Them is always a powerful cohesive. The problem is it turns the rest of the world and the rest of Christianity into an enemy which is, at best, counterproductive. Mainstream Christianity is the great and abominable church, especially Evangelical Christianity.
KevinG Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I think we err in trying to identify a particular denomination. In fact most Christian denominations are more with us than against us, even if they don't realize it. I have long seen the church of Satan as any effort that is in opposition to bringing the children of men unto Christ. Even those who try to identify themselves as Satanists are probably falling short of the kind of organized opposition the adversary is capable of mustering without having to organize a priesthood and build buildings. 3
Derl Sanderson Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 1. Should read this essay.http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1397&index=6 2. Should check out the other good information on the FAIR website under "great and abominable church" 3. Should realize that the first edition of Mormon Doctrine was pretty much a disaster. Elder McConkie was always an impetuous type, but for all the good he did, in this case his presumptuousness was an embarassment to church leaders and his book was shot full of errors identified by Elders Stapley and Peterson (see David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Robert Wright and Gregory Prince). 4
CA Steve Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 3. Should realize that the first edition of Mormon Doctrine was pretty much a disaster. Elder McConkie was always an impetuous type, but for all the good he did, in this case his presumptuousness was an embarassment to church leaders and his book was shot full of errors identified by Elders Stapley and Peterson (see David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Robert Wright and Gregory Prince). Shot full of errors when viewed by our current lens, or shot full of errors as viewed by those at the time BRM wrote it, or shot full of errors as viewed by the church founders? It seems to me that had he published the book even 20 years earlier many of those "errors" would have been accepted as correct views. If we can argue to defend past policies (old doctrine) as merely the result of the times and culture, certainly much of what BRM wrote could be seen in the same light. I wonder how many of our strongly held beliefs today will be seen as shot full of errors by later generations? 1
Derl Sanderson Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 At the time he wrote it (the first edition). But you pose a good question, Steve, and I don't have the Wright/Prince book in front of me and it's been awhile since I read it. I want to be able to give the correct context of the episode, so let me put you off awhile until I get home (danged job!) and can pull the book off my shelf.
rewcox Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I think we err in trying to identify a particular denomination. In fact most Christian denominations are more with us than against us, even if they don't realize it. I have long seen the church of Satan as any effort that is in opposition to bringing the children of men unto Christ. Even those who try to identify themselves as Satanists are probably falling short of the kind of organized opposition the adversary is capable of mustering without having to organize a priesthood and build buildings.Good point.
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