The Little Brown Rock Or Seer Stone

[ERayR]

The point is..the rock.  Faith in magic is not good.

 

1) mag·ic

 

noun: magic

1.

the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

"do you believe in magic?"

 

 

2.

informal

wonderful; exciting.

 

Again it all depends on how you see magic and what you see as magic.  If you are only going to see the negative connotations then you are right.

[filovirus]

 

I think someone should petition God to give us a direct book of instructions for all of todays people.  Right now there is one person out of one thousand of the worlds people who are active LDS and most people have never heard of them.  The present system is not working.

Be my guest.

[carbon dioxide]

The point is..the rock.  Faith in magic is not good.

Faith in God is good and God can use whatever means he chooses to accomplish what he needs done.  To an unbeliever, the acts of God are magic because they do not understand them.

[Sanpitch]

Jesus spit in some dirt and put the mud on a man's eyes to heal his blindness, Moses had a staff, Joseph of Egypt had a silver divination cup.

God does weird stuff all the time.

Only atheists, who are shackled to human logic and reason, should have a problem with the idea of a seer stone.

Anyone who believes in God or gods in some fashion should be willing to accept the possibility of "weird".

Are you saying that you are illogical and unreasonable, because you're not shackled to human logic and reason?

Yes some of us do question the logic in the bible, talking snakes talking donkeys and all the animal types on earth floating around for near a year on a cruise ship.  What do the elephants and other big animals eat.  A horse eats about a half ton of hay a month.

[theplains]

I would say that's what the JWs SAY they do. But because they don't believe in living prophets, continuous revelation, and an open canon of scripture, it's gonna be impossible to get the revelatory process Paul espouses to work. 

 

While they don't have or have ever used seer stones, they believe their Governing Body is the

mouthpiece for God on earth. These members are their living prophets.   They have not added

any canon but they had made significant changes to the existing ones. Even their own New World

Translation gets modified from time to time to correct false teachings with new light.  One example

I heard of is that an older version had 'let all the angels worship him' [Christ].  This was changed

to 'make obeisance' [thus altering the meaning].

 

As for an open canon, the LDS Church believes in it even though it has not added anything since

1979.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Sanpitch]

Perhaps sanpitch would have God's plan be more like the Muslim one. They have a book of instructions. They have a prophet. Oh, there are some differences of opinion , and they kill each other over them, just like the Christians did for centuries, but for the most part , they follow their ' plan ' pretty closely. There are about a billion of them worldwide. Now that is success! Convert or die is a good recruitment method. Makes one wonder who is in charge around here.

If you'd like to discuss or argue through ridicule, I'm good at that.  Where do you wish to start, Joseph Smith,  church history, we can go about anywhere you'd like?

[Okrahomer]

1. The present system is to try to get people to read the BofM and pray about it.

2. Many millions all over the world would be a good start.

3. Anyone who is interested in people knowing the claim true gospel.

4. There may be books of instruction available but how many people of the world know about them. And I don't think they are clear and easy to understand.

Ed to add: The JWs have one book, the Bible and they try to teach from it. They have a claimed 7.8 million active members all over the world which is more than the LDS have from what I understand about activities rates. JW seem to be honest in claiming members as the only ones they count are the ones activitly preaching their believes. I do think they are brain washed so I'm not trying to push their agenda. Just the fact that they are more successful.

It's apparent from your answers that you don't believe. Fair enough. We, on the other hand do. We are pleased with the instructions we have received in response to our prayers. We are not overly concerned about what other churches claim or don't with respect to membership numbers; however, it does you no credit to reveal your own prejudice by impugning an entire faith group with accusations of being "brain washed."

So, why are you posting here? What is your goal?

Edited August 8, 2015 by Okrahomer

[bluebell]

Are you saying that you are illogical and unreasonable, because you're not shackled to human logic and reason?

Yes some of us do question the logic in the bible, talking snakes talking donkeys and all the animal types on earth floating around for near a year on a cruise ship. What do the elephants and other big animals eat. A horse eats about a half ton of hay a month.

Nope, I'm just saying that anyone who believes in God has to be open to believing in things that they don't understand.

Because the alternative is a God of the universe who only does stuff that a puny human brain with extremely limited knowledge and experience can conceive of.

And that's not the kind of God we profess to believe in.

[Robert F. Smith]

Let's pull back and take a look at what all the discussion is about, (25 pages worth) on the Seer Stone Thread.

 

The Seer Stone helped translate a record of a group of native people who no longer exist, it tells of their wars and their turning to righteousness and then reverting back to wickedness and then more wars and more righteousness and more wickedness until they are mostly all killed.

 

Of what importance is that to todays people or especially to people in developed nations such as Europe and Japan where church growth is negative in many of those countries.  Why should they care about the claims of a farm boy from America and his claimed translation of the records of a mostly extinct people. 

 

I think someone should petition God to give us a direct book of instructions for all of todays people.  Right now there is one person out of one thousand of the worlds people who are active LDS and most people have never heard of them.  The present system is not working.

 

I'm ready for criticism or banning now.

You might also want to take a look at the comments at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65842-why-use-a-seer-stone/ .

[Calm]

http://blog.fairmormon.org/2015/08/07/joseph-smith-and-magic/

The whole blog is worth it, for a taste:

"Another important point to consider is the American frontier at the time was steeped in a religious and biblical culture–––much more so then we are today–––and many (though not all) would have certainly viewed these practices as falling under biblical approval. The Bible certainly lends credit to God use of physical objects in miraculous ways. Consider Jacob’s use of peeled poplar and hazel sticks to produced striped and spotted stock, Moses’ and Aaron’s rods, the Urim and Thummim, and consecrated oil to heal the sick as examples. It is critical to note, however, that the Bible absolutely condemns magic and sorcery. This is important: all who believe in the Bible (or virtually any other book of scripture for that matter) most certainly believe in supernatural, unexplainable miracles, but point to God as the source, not magic. Most of these practitioners–––be it “dowsers” or “seers”–––were practicing Christians, and as such they would have believed that they were given their gifts from God, not that they had some inherent magical power."

Edited August 8, 2015 by calmoriah

[Sanpitch]

It's apparent from your answers that you don't believe. Fair enough. We, on the other hand do. We are pleased with the instructions we have received in response to our prayers. We are not overly concerned about what other churches claim or don't with respect to membership numbers; however, it does you no credit to reveal your own prejudice by impugning an entire faith group with accusations of being "brain washed."

So, why are you posting here? What is your goal?

I didn't like the term "brain washed", that was directed to JWs but I needed a word to make it clear I'm not pushing their agenda.  So why am I here?  Because I'm surrounded by LDS family and JW family and I think it's interesting to discuss the beliefs and how they are doing world wide. 

 

Ed:  I also have multiple LDS nephews and nieces in far away places that state they have a hard time to get people to listen to them, especially Europe and that would include Japan.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Sanpitch

[Bobbieaware]

While they don't have or have ever used seer stones, they believe their Governing Body is the

mouthpiece for God on earth. These members are their living prophets. They have not added

any canon but they had made significant changes to the existing ones. Even their own New World

Translation gets modified from time to time to correct false teachings with new light. One example

I heard of is that an older version had 'let all the angels worship him' [Christ]. This was changed

to 'make obeisance' [thus altering the meaning].

As for an open canon, the LDS Church believes in it even though it has not added anything since

1979.

Regards,

Jim

You are mistaken (there you go again) it was 1981 when Joseph F. Smith's vision of on the salvation of the dead was added to the LDS canon of scripture. That means President Smith's vision "waited in the wings," as it were, since 1918 (that's 63 Years) until it was finally added to the canon. Meanwhile, I wonder if you already realize there are mamy hundreds of examples of inspired writings and addresses from our apostles and prophets that are classified as uncanonized scripture (you know, like how the books and epistles of the eventual New Testament existed for quite some time before they were gathered in one and canonized).

As far as prophets are concerned: does the church of which you speak have a quorum of twelve apostles who receive revelation to lead the church after the pattern of the New Testament Church of Christ? If not, what scriptural references does the church use to justify a break with the New Testament pattern of organized Church leadership established by Christ and declared essential and inviolate by the Apostle Paul?

Edited August 9, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Avatar4321]

Guidance from the Holy Spirit in my mind is not scripture.  Guidance is usually for the individual and almost all Christian faiths appeal to the Holy Spirit for guidance.  This is not a sacred benefit of the LDS.

But by very definition The Holy Spirit speaks the Word of God because He is God. The Word.of God is scripture

[Sanpitch]

 

As far as prophets are concerned: does the church of which you speak have a quorum of twelve apostles who receive revelation to lead the church after the pattern of the New Testament Church of Christ? If not, what scriptural references does the church use to justify a break with the New Testament pattern of organized Church leadership established by Christ and declared essential and inviolate by the Apostle Paul.

Until I can get some info from my fanatical JW wife, can you post some references to Apostle Paul's statement  of the necessity of the organized Church leadership.  I don't think other Christian Church follow that pattern but I don't know. 

[Avatar4321]

Jesus spit in some dirt and put the mud on a man's eyes to heal his blindness, Moses had a staff, Joseph of Egypt had a silver divination cup.

God does weird stuff all the time.

Only atheists, who are shackled to human logic and reason, should have a problem with the idea of a seer stone.

Anyone who believes in God or gods in some fashion should be willing to accept the possibility of "weird".

I disagree. Atheists aren't shackled to logic of reason. If they were they would be agnostic

[Okrahomer]

I didn't like the term "brain washed", that was directed to JWs but I needed a word to make it clear I'm not pushing their agenda.  So why am I here?  Because I'm surrounded by LDS family and JW family and I think it's interesting to discuss the beliefs and how they are doing world wide. 

 

Ed:  I also have multiple LDS nephews and nieces in far away places that state they have a hard time to get people to listen to them, especially Europe and that would include Japan.

OK. It would aid discussion, if we understood what you yourself believe. Could you give us a brief summary? Do you believe in God? Do you believe in the Bible? Do you belong to or follow a particular religion or philosophy?

(Apologies if you've already done this. If you have, could you point me to the thread, so I can read through it?)

[Sanpitch]

I disagree. Atheists aren't shackled to logic of reason. If they were they would be agnostic

Would you explain that, I'm curious.

[Sanpitch]

OK. It would aid discussion, if we understood what you yourself believe. Could you give us a brief summary? Do you believe in God? Do you believe in the Bible? Do you belong to or follow a particular religion or philosophy?

(Apologies if you've already done this. If you have, could you point me to the thread, so I can read through it?)

 

I'm open for anything reasonable.  I don't know of a God, I've never seen or heard form him.  And the bible sounds to me like a bunch of myths and impossible stories.  Also the stories of killing the enemies of the favored people and stoning to death someone who gathers wood on Sunday or a she bear who kills several youths for making fun of a bald headed person just do not make sense.  However I don't want to get bogged down in long discussions here, I've mostly said what I have to say.

[strappinglad]

If we are to judge success by numbers of adherents ,Christianity comes in at number one with 2.2 billion. Muslims are second with about 1.6 billion. Now if we were to break up into sects the Roman Catholics lead the Christians and the Sunnis lead the Muslims. Of course there are quite a few non- affiliated/agnostics/atheists at around 11 % of the world's population.

I find it interesting that the population of Jews in the world is about the same as that of the LDS. The Jews have had a disproportionate influence on world events, in my opinion. I wonder why. Although our (LDS) numbers are also few , we could also be influential in other ways.

We are to be considered as ' leaven ' ie. yeast in our influence. It should be noted that yeast occupies about 1 % by volume of a bread recipe . 1 % of 7 billion is 70 million so yes, the LDS have a ways to go .Best we get a move on !!!

Edited August 9, 2015 by strappinglad

[Sanpitch]

If we are to judge success by numbers of adherents ,Christianity comes in at number one with 2.2 billion. Muslims are second with about 1.6 billion. Now if we were to break up into sects the Roman Catholics lead the Christians and the Sunnis lead the Muslims. Of course there are quite a few non- affiliated/agnostics/atheists at around 11 % of the world's population.

I find it interesting that the population of Jews in the world is about the same as that of the LDS. The Jews have had a disproportionate influence on world events, in my opinion. I wonder why. Although our (LDS) numbers are also few , we could also be influential in other ways.

We are to be considered as ' leaven ' ie. yeast in our influence.

That's interesting however the whole point of LDS is for them to spread all over the world and it seems they are not growing that fast.

[Scott Lloyd]

That's interesting however the whole point of LDS is for them to spread all over the world and it seems they are not growing that fast.

The scriptures make clear (Nephi's vision) that the church of the Lamb of God would be over all the earth, but that its numbers would be few by reason of the devil's influence (pretty much sounds like how things are today). The Church will prepare for the Second Coming of Christ. <That's> when the stone cut out of the mountain without hands will fill the earth. Meanwhile, the gospel will be preached in all the earth.

Seems like the unbelievers, not the believers, are the ones fixated on numerical dominance or lack thereof.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Teancum]

Do you know for sure they haven't?

Do you know they have?

[Teancum]

It's a rock. God adds the magic when you are ready to receive it.

Do any old rock will do?

I guess I just need to find one with an on and off switch.

[Teancum]

I would say that's what the JWs SAY they do. But because they don't believe in living prophets, continuous revelation, and an open canon of scripture, it's gonna be impossible to get the revelatory process Paul espouses to work. You see, in order to receive authentic revelation from God the recipients of that revelation must be prophets in their own right. And if one believes there are no longer living prophets, the revelatory process simply can't work. You can"t have it both ways: One either believes in living prophets and continuous revelation, or he believes there are no longer living prophets and ends up with a system of religious belief that is an amalgam of the teachings of men mingled with scripture.

So because they don't believe in living prophets the Holy Ghost can't speak to the JW believer directly?

Most Christians believe God communicates directly to the believer via the Holy Ghost.

[Teancum]

I don't know.  What I do know is people tend to react to things from their POV.

Exactly.