The Little Brown Rock Or Seer Stone

[Sanpitch]

It sounds like you are saying that on the one hand, I am a believer only because I've been brainwashed; while on the other hand, you DON'T believe...only because...you've been brainwashed? And there is no choice in the matter?

It's a minor point but most people who grow up with very faithful LDS parents or JW or Catholic parents become what their parents are.  Some exceptions but generally.  If the young person is force fed a diet of their parents faith that is where the, what I call brainwashing, come in.  The parents don't tell the young, "we found our faith, now you go find your own."  And if the young accept that faith they can't decide to become something else until there are different facts or a different viewpoint presented.  But if they believe why search for anything else?

 

I was a little rebellious and never really accepted what I was taught, then at about 18 yrs old I read of the polygamy among my ancestors with a bad ending.  A husband was called on a mission to England when he was about 57 yrs old by B. Young.  On his return he brought a nice 18 yr old English maiden to be his second wife.  First wife threw a pan of clobbered milk on them and slammed the door.  That was the end of first wife's relationship with her husband.  Husband and new wife to be went to the St. George Temple and were married.  I see no reason hide names, that was James Mellor who came with Mary Ann and family including about seven small kids, in the Martin Handcart Company and nearly froze and starved to death.  That started me on a turning point against the church.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Sanpitch

[Avatar4321]

I think between the JW side of the family and the LDS side and other sources I've probably heard or learned as much as most LDS or JW.  I was at BYU for a year and a half many, many years ago and took the BofM class under Anderson.  My dad was bishop for eight years when I was young and all his kids are very LDS except myself.

 

I think for some of us it just doesn't ring logical or sensible and the method of reading the BofM and praying is not a method of finding truth  for us.  I don't think anyone decides what they will believe and they can chose which path to take.  When the facts have settled in their mind the brain decides and it doesn't change without a new view or new facts.

 

It's very interesting to me to see the strong testimony of the LDS that have no question they are or can be in error in any way in their beliefs.  I also see JWs, that if there is any difference to the LDS, they are even stronger in their faith.  I have known JWs who have died because they don't believe in blood transfusion and refuse it.  One was a young mother with two small kids who bled to death in child birth and still refused any blood added to her system.  I'm still sad about that.  We often took the surviving kids on vacation with us and our granddaughter married into that family.  We could discuss the strong faith of the Muslim but I'll leave that out for now.  But a strong faith is no indication that the truth is there also.

 

So that is where I am for now.

 

Ed  Early I mentioned the JWs are brainwashed, I don't actually think that is a dirty word.  We are all brainwashed to some extent by our surroundings, our communications with others and what we read.  And that includes myself.

What is illogical about going to God, the source of all truth, to learn the truth? I don't understand how that can be anything but logical. Are you just going to figure out the truth by ignoring the very source of truth?

[Avatar4321]

Well..if we go by definition, we don't need the Holy Ghost or a Prophet.  I believe in magic..but I don't connect it with revelation. Such magic if there is...should be for everyone,

I don't see how revelation is magic any more than talking with my wife is. Nor do I see how revelation isn't for everyone. You are entitled to revelation as much as I am or anyone else here. All you need to do is seek it out

[Sanpitch]

What is illogical about going to God, the source of all truth, to learn the truth? I don't understand how that can be anything but logical. Are you just going to figure out the truth by ignoring the very source of truth?

I think first you have to know there is a God or at least see evidence that there is one.  I don't see any evidence.  I know, who created everything?  Who created God?

[rodheadlee]

I think first you have to know there is a God or at least see evidence that there is one.  I don't see any evidence.  I know, who created everything?  Who created God?

His Father and Mother.

[Sanpitch]

His Father and Mother.

Good answer but where do they live and who are their ancestors?

[Avatar4321]

I think first you have to know there is a God or at least see evidence that there is one.  I don't see any evidence.  I know, who created everything?  Who created God?

I didn't know there was a God before I asked Him. I simply concluded that if there was an all powerful Creator of the universe and He wanted me to know Him, he had the power to make Himself known.

And then I tried to live what the scriptures taught. I didn't have lots of faith, but I exercised what I had based on logical safe conclusions.

When the Lord revealed His love, glory, and power to me by the Spirit I knew for myself. But it was after I experimented on the Word and exercised faith. It was when I humbled myself and sought Him sincerely.

We will not receive a witness until after the trial of our faith.

As for evidence, there is evidence all around. All creation is evidence of a Creator. The scriptures are eye witness evidence of the Lord. My life is evidence of God because of the mighty change He has wrought on me. The evidence is there

You might not find it credible but that doesn't mean it isn't evidence.

I encourage you to seek out the Lord in fasting and prayer. Study the scriptures and experiment on the Word by applying those teachings in your life. Be humble and wait in the Lord and you will receive your own witness.

Are both your parents members?

[Sanpitch]

 I encourage you to seek out the Lord in fasting and prayer. Study the scriptures and experiment on the Word by applying those teachings in your life. Be humble and wait in the Lord and you will receive your own witness.

Are both your parents members?

 

 

They were when they died.

 

 

[Sanpitch]

 

 I encourage you to seek out the Lord in fasting and prayer. Study the scriptures and experiment on the Word by applying those teachings in your life. Be humble and wait in the Lord and you will receive your own witness.

Are both your parents members?

 

 

They were when they died.

 

Ed:  I don't know what they're doing now.  Wife and I are both orphans.

 

[Okrahomer]

It's a minor point but most people who grow up with very faithful LDS parents or JW or Catholic parents become what their parents are.  Some exceptions but generally.  If the young person is force fed a diet of their parents faith that is where the, what I call brainwashing, come in.  The parents don't tell the young, "we found our faith, now you go find your own."  And if the young accept that faith they can't decide to become something else until there are different facts or a different viewpoint presented.  But if they believe why search for anything else?

 

I was a little rebellious and never really accepted what I was taught, then at about 18 yrs old I read of the polygamy among my ancestors with a bad ending.  A husband was called on a mission to England when he was about 57 yrs old by B. Young.  On his return he brought a nice 18 yr old English maiden to be his second wife.  First wife threw a pan of clobbered milk on them and slammed the door.  That was the end of first wife's relationship with her husband.  Husband and new wife to be went to the St. George Temple and were married.  I see no reason hide names, that was James Mellor who came with Mary Ann and family including about seven small kids, in the Martin Handcart Company and nearly froze and starved to death.  That started me on a turning point against the church.

 

Thanks for the clarification.  It helps understand where you are coming from.  I also have polygamy in my ancestry--on my mothers' side.  Since my folks were very much interested and involved in genealogy, polygamy was a fact of our family history; and thus LDS Church history.  Having polygamous ancestors is part and parcel of who I am, and it has been pretty much from the beginning of my earliest memories.  It was not a taboo topic in our home, and I was never ashamed of it.

 

What I find more interesting though is why you feel everyone has been "brainwashed."  I agree that we are all influenced by our parents; but what puzzles me is the idea that you expressed earlier, that we have no "choice" whether to believe or not to believe.  That's what's not quite computing with me.  If that is true, why are you not LDS then?  It sure seems you exercised some kind of "choice" at some point?

[Guest]

Let's pull back and take a look at what all the discussion is about, (25 pages worth) on the Seer Stone Thread.

 

The Seer Stone helped translate a record of a group of native people who no longer exist, it tells of their wars and their turning to righteousness and then reverting back to wickedness and then more wars and more righteousness and more wickedness until they are mostly all killed.

 

Of what importance is that to todays people or especially to people in developed nations such as Europe and Japan where church growth is negative in many of those countries.  Why should they care about the claims of a farm boy from America and his claimed translation of the records of a mostly extinct people. 

 

I think someone should petition God to give us a direct book of instructions for all of todays people.  Right now there is one person out of one thousand of the worlds people who are active LDS and most people have never heard of them.  The present system is not working.

 

I'm ready for criticism or banning now.

We have such a book. The Book of Mormon is one of the most contemporary books on earth. One only need read it over and over again...especially those who have been members for decades. Each time we reread it, it becomes more r eleven to the problems and issues of today, be it in politics, social upheaval and spiritual direction. Indeed criticism will come as it always does, as it would with any new book or pamphlet, just as it always has. We have so many critics within and without our faith that a sign pointing the was to the bathroom would be met with vicious replies. Such is the state of any organization which makes the claim of having the truth, and we're it not published would come the outcry of suppression of facts. What causes me worry and caution is how many have given up or lost their testimonies, who will find that had they only kept faith, that all will be revealed and how many years were lost when the truth is revealed in it's entirety. Also the joy of the reward who remained faithful to the end.

[Sanpitch]

Thanks for the clarification.  It helps understand where you are coming from.  I also have polygamy in my ancestry--on my mothers' side.  Since my folks were very much interested and involved in genealogy, polygamy was a fact of our family history; and thus LDS Church history.  Having polygamous ancestors is part and parcel of who I am, and it has been pretty much from the beginning of my earliest memories.  It was not a taboo topic in our home, and I was never ashamed of it.

 

What I find more interesting though is why you feel everyone has been "brainwashed."  I agree that we are all influenced by our parents; but what puzzles me is the idea that you expressed earlier, that we have no "choice" whether to believe or not to believe.  That's what's not quite computing with me.  If that is true, why are you not LDS then?  It sure seems you exercised some kind of "choice" at some point?

That's just my own little thoughts on choice.  "Why are you not LDS then?"  Because the evidence points away from that choice and what I'm trying to say is that I cannot choose to believe LDS if the evidence that I have does not support that choice.  If the evidence you have supports LDS then you do not have the choice to decide to believe something else.  The thought is all meaningless actually.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Sanpitch

[Sanpitch]

We have such a book. The Book of Mormon is one of the most contemporary books on earth. One only need read it over and over again...especially those who have been members for decades. Each time we reread it, it becomes more r eleven to the problems and issues of today, be it in politics, social upheaval and spiritual direction. Indeed criticism will come as it always does, as it would with any new book or pamphlet, just as it always has. We have so many critics within and without our faith that a sign pointing the was to the bathroom would be met with vicious replies. Such is the state of any organization which makes the claim of having the truth, and we're it not published would come the outcry of suppression of facts. What causes me worry and caution is how many have given up or lost their testimonies, who will find that had they only kept faith, that all will be revealed and how many years were lost when the truth is revealed in it's entirety. Also the joy of the reward who remained faithful to the end.

That book is the history of American Natives who no long exist and not really relevant to people on the other side of the world.  The info in that book is not what they really need to know and it also comes to them through a man.  

[Avatar4321]

I recommend studying it again. It's completely relevant to us. It was written for us and our needs. They didn't have it

[KevinG]

I can't speak for the Jehovah's Witnesses but I would be a damn fool to neglect what God has revealed to me just because someone else believes differently than I.

 

I don't see the seer stone as disturbing because I too have used icons and objects through the years to help my concentration or keep my mind focused on important things.

[Guest]

That book is the history of American Natives who no long exist and not really relevant to people on the other side of the world.  The info in that book is not what they really need to know and it also comes to them through a man.

The book speaks of Christ and the forms of Gov't and movements that brought them down to destruction. It is literally a blueprint of what is happening today and the fate that will befall us all if unchecked. How long has it been since you read it as a whole? Any who have can see the "types and shadows" that point to our day and time. So...no, it is so much more that a book about people who no longer exist...no more than the Bible. However, the Book of Mormon was not written for those ancient people, but for us as spelled out in the title page and throughout the pages of the book itself. The book that spells out the same thing, but it written as a guide book to the daily operations of the Church in our day is the Doctrine and Covenants. We have these and living Prophets and Apostles; what more could we need.

[Okrahomer]

That's just my own little thoughts on choice.  "Why are you not LDS then?"  Because the evidence points away from that choice and what I'm trying to say is that I cannot choose to believe LDS if the evidence that I have does not support that choice.  If the evidence you have supports LDS then you do not have the choice to decide to believe something else.  The thought is all meaningless actually.

 

I respectfully disagree.  The thought is not meaningless.

 

In this thread you have revealed quite a bit about yourself.  Specifically, that you put your trust (i.e., faith and belief) in "the evidence."  That kind of faith might make some sense, if you actually had all of it.  But neither you nor I possess all the evidence; nor can either of us claim that we know how to perfectly interpret what little we have.  We are not automatons.  At the end of the day, both of us still have a choice to believe or not to believe.

[Sanpitch]

I respectfully disagree.  The thought is not meaningless.

 

In this thread you have revealed quite a bit about yourself.  Specifically, that you put your trust (i.e., faith and belief) in "the evidence."  That kind of faith might make some sense, if you actually had all of it.  But neither you nor I possess all the evidence; nor can either of us claim that we know how to perfectly interpret what little we have.  We are not automatons.  At the end of the day, both of us still have a choice to believe or not to believe.

Alright, but then why should I change my present choice to something else?  I agree we all know so little about everything, until we know more we have to accept what we have.

[Avatar4321]

Alright, but then why should I change my present choice to something else?  I agree we all know so little about everything, until we know more we have to accept what we have.

Which is why we never stop seeking answers.

[Sanpitch]

Which is why we never stop seeking answers.

Should we seek answers in the Quran, if not why not?  It's beginnings were similar to the BofM, through revelation to Muhammad and a scribe wrote it down.  Muhammad married several wives, one a 9 year old.  We are directed to pray about it to see if it's true.  If we have doubts we should try to write something similar ourselves and see if we can do it.  Has anyone read the Quran to see if it's true?

 

I haven't read about it for years I hope I'm somewhat accurate in my statements.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Sanpitch

[Sanpitch]

Should we seek answers in the Quran, if not why not?  It's beginnings were similar to the BofM, through revelation to Muhammad and a scribe wrote it down.  Muhammad married several wives, one a 9 year old.  We are directed to pray about it to see if it's true.  If we have doubts we should try to write something similar ourselves and see if we can do it.  Has anyone read the Quran to see if it's true?

 

I haven't read about it for years I hope I'm somewhat accurate in my statements.

Ed to add a quote about the Quran:

 

Inimitability of the Quran (or "I'jaz") is the belief that no human speech can match the Quran in its content and form. The Quran is considered an inimitable miracle by Muslims, effective until the Day of Resurrection—and, thereby, the central proof granted to Muhammad in authentication of his prophetic status. The concept of inimitability originates in the Quran where in five different verses opponents are challenged to produce something like the Quran: "If men and sprites banded together to produce the like of this Quran they would never produce its like not though they backed one another."^[64] So the suggestion is that if there are doubts concerning the divine authorship of the Quran, come forward and create something like it.

 

Ed:  Actually now I think about it, Hugh Nibley made the same challenge about the BofM.  He challenged anyone to write something comparable to the BofM.  He claimed they couldn't do it.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Sanpitch

[ERayR]

.

Well if they have used it they have been silent about it. Joseph Smith was not as recitent about such things.

We just don't know do we so why make speculative assertions?

[ERayR]

Well..if we go by definition, we don't need the Holy Ghost or a Prophet.  I believe in magic..but I don't connect it with revelation. Such magic if there is...should be for everyone,

 

Obviously you have a different pov but I don't discount the influence of the Holy Ghost nor the role of a prophet.  If all were living up to their potential all would be prophets.

 

I definitely think it is wonderful and exciting. 

[ERayR]

I think for some of us it just doesn't ring logical or sensible and the method of reading the BofM and praying is not a method of finding truth  for us.  I

 

In other words it has to be on your terms, not Gods.  To me that seems like a recipe for failure but to each his own.

[ERayR]

Good answer but where do they live and who are their ancestors?

 

You can't get there from here.  First you have to get the keys that unlock the gates.