Did Christ Experience Spiritual Death?

[halconero]

I was contemplating the death and resurrection of the Saviour today and thought on the significance of his cry on the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

In that moment may it be understood that the connection between the Father and Son was temporarily severed, so that Christ could comprehend and experience the spiritual death of sin, and come off conquerer by his divine power and sinlessness? That spiritual death was necessary to undergo spiritual resurrection and enable that for all humanity?

[JLHPROF]

I think that depends on your definition of the "Second Death".  I think there are several applicable definitions.  And I think Christ may have experienced one kind but not the other.

 

 

But good topic question BTW.

Edited July 26, 2015 by JLHPROF

[halconero]

Hmmmm, can you elaborate of the different definitions?

And thanks, I'm genuinely interested in the topic, but I have to admit an ulterior motive in wanting to populate the board with more Gospel doctrine-oriented discussions.

[Rivers]

I was contemplating the death and resurrection of the Saviour today and thought on the significance of his cry on the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

In that moment may it be understood that the connection between the Father and Son was temporarily severed, so that Christ could comprehend and experience the spiritual death of sin, and come off conquerer by his divine power and sinlessness? That spiritual death was necessary to undergo spiritual resurrection and enable that for all humanity?

Makes sense to me.

[JLHPROF]

Hmmmm, can you elaborate of the different definitions?

And thanks, I'm genuinely interested in the topic, but I have to admit an ulterior motive in wanting to populate the board with more Gospel doctrine-oriented discussions.

 

The scriptures clearly differentiate between being spiritually dead (something we all experience to some degree) and the death of the spirit (a permanent situation sometimes called the second death).

I have often seen people confuse these two very separate situations.

I don't believe Christ experienced the "death of the spirit", however based on the scripture you quoted I do believe he was required to experience being "spiritually dead".

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/death-spiritual

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/death-spiritual-second

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Spiritual_Death

[Ahab]

Death is a separation, either the separation of a spirit from its mortal body or a separation of a spirit from another spirit. Either way it is some kind of spiritual separation. And yes our Savior experienced both kinds of death, himself. First he lost the spirit to spirit connection between his spirit and the spirit of his/our Father, which is what he was referring to by saying his/our Father had forsaken him, and then soon after his spirit separated from his mortal body. He died in every way it is possible for a spirit/person to die. And then by the power our Father had already given him, which he kept by living a sinless life, he restored both connections. First his spirit reunited with his mortal body and perfected it with his resurrection, and then soon after his spirit reunited with the spirit of his/our Father in heaven.

[CV75]

I was contemplating the death and resurrection of the Saviour today and thought on the significance of his cry on the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

In that moment may it be understood that the connection between the Father and Son was temporarily severed, so that Christ could comprehend and experience the spiritual death of sin, and come off conquerer by his divine power and sinlessness? That spiritual death was necessary to undergo spiritual resurrection and enable that for all humanity?

Yes, I think He did. I think this is what is alluded to in Psalms 22:14, "my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels." He was spiritually separated from the Father, not through disobedience but according to the Father to realize the infnite atonement, for which He was given power to perform.

 

I think His cry to the Father showed how far the flesh discourages the spirit, but His final words "It is finished" show that His spirit overcame the flesh.

[Traela]

I believe that when Jesus took our sins upon himself, He also accepted the spiritual consequences. How could he experience everything we do, if he didn't also experience the separation from God that results from sin?

[3DOP]

Under the subheading, "Peace in Suffering", a prominent Catholic theologian of the 20th Century argues against the view that Christ was in despair upon the Cross:

 

In spite of His most intense suffering, Jesus maintained a deep peace during His entire passion.

 

This is evident from the seven last words that He spoke. One of them, it is true, does appear to be a cry of anguish: "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Calvin chose to see in it a cry of despair, but such was not the case at all, as shown by the words of trust and thanksgiving which followed: "It is consummated."

 

These words, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" are the first verse of a Messianic psalm in which Jesus spoke in the name of the sinners whose sins he had taken upon Himself.

 

Thus does the Psalm which began with a cry of pain: "my God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" end in words of trust and praise. Jesus in His dying moments lived this psalm in its entirety with a depth of experience which we cannot begin to fathom."

 

---Our Savior and His Love For Us, Fr. Reginald Garrigou-LaGrange, TAN Publishers, 1998, pp. 273, 274

 

Clearly, non-Catholics are going to speculate. I am not trying to speak with authority to non-Catholics, but asking for consideration. Catholics have a Tradition which says that from the moment of conception, the Word made flesh was united to God in Heaven via the Beatific Vision, which is the essential spiritual state of the inhabitants of Heaven, wherever the bodies of the blessed will reside geographically speaking.

 

The common Catholic view is that it would have been unnecessary as well as unjust for the Son to have been deprived of the vision of God. He quoted the first verse of a Psalm which must be understood in its entirety, not just for the first sentiment of the Psalmist. Jesus tells us that we must bear our crosses with the same patience as He did, with peace and confidence. It would not be very comforting to think that like Him, we would experience separation from God while carrying our burdens. If we follow Him, He rather assures us that He will help us with out burdens, because (with His peace), our labors will be easy, and our burdens light. St. Paul informs us in his letter to the Hebrews that Jesus endured the Cross, for the joy that was set before Him, endured the despicable shame of the Cross. We would hold that having joy in view, Jesus could not have been doubting His Father's love, or His own deliverance, but was rather pointing His auditors to the Messianic Psalm which vividly described the painful afflictions which He had been enduring on that first Good Friday

 

Rory

Edited July 26, 2015 by 3DOP

[Nevo]

Here are two reflections on Christ's cry from the cross that I find particularly valuable:
 

In our suffering, if it is bad enough, we lose hope. This means we have literally no hope of coming through. We are broken. We despair. It may be that we remember the words of Jesus, dying on the cross. He lost all comprehension of what was happening to him, despite his own earlier knowledge that he was to suffer, and die, and rise again.

 

Jesus himself in his pain on Good Friday lost the conception of Easter Day. That is part of the point of Good Friday. If everyone had been able to retain a cosy, reassuring memory that something else was supposed to happen afterwards, it wouldn't have been Good Friday. Nor would it have been redemptive. We may only have hope because Jesus lost it, and therefore totally shares our dark. There is nowhere we can go where he hasn’t been, no abyss where he cannot be encountered at the bottom. . . .

 

On the cross . . . he lost this experience of unity [with God the Father], which was the most fundamental thing in his life. This loss was to him the ultimate dereliction. . . . It is precisely and exactly because the Lord experienced this bottomless despair that we can worship him. There is nowhere we can go where he hasn’t been, no abyss where he cannot be encountered at the bottom. . . . It is precisely because of his agony, the fringes of which may touch us, that we may have hope. . . .

 

The incarnation is telling us that God is very near us: it is telling us that he comes to us, is touching us, just as he touched the leper in Mark—that there is no one who needs him whom he rejects. He isn’t an insurance policy: he doesn’t solve the mystery of pain and dark for us, or take it away. He chooses not to represent power. Instead, he shares our dark. He lives through it with us, and by so doing, he transforms it. The trust we have to have in him lies far deeper than belief in his power simply to remove the problem. It is trust that he will be present with us in the deepest waters, and the most acute pain, and in his will to transform these things.

 

— Margaret Spufford, “Suffering,” Encyclopedia of Christianity, 1158.

 

 

Peter, of course, had promised Jesus he would never leave His side, never deny, never forsake Him. Yet before Christ endured the first of His physical tortures, His friends had fled, and the chief of His disciples had abandoned Him to face the night of horrors alone. . . . But it was not just His friends who deserted Him. To have an endless empathy, He would have to know a terror and abandonment and hopelessness beyond human conceiving, such that no mortal tongue could say, you don't know what I have known, you haven't been where I have been. . . .

 

So at the close of His life, He hung on the cross to die, with no angels to sing Him home, no light shining at the far end of the tunnel. "I have trodden the wine press alone." Who can imagine the oblivion into which He peered, the suffocating gloom, the infinite void? He who was present on Creation's morn, the Light of the World, now faced a darkness beyond any night. And then, at the acme of His agony, He was sundered from the only solace in His pain-wracked life, the only constant comfort in His suffering—His Father's presence. The shock and horror of that final, unsupportable abandonment is heard in His cry of despair, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

— Terryl Givens and Fiona Givens, The God Who Weeps: How Mormonism Makes Sense of Life (N.p.: Ensign Peak, 2012), 28–29.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Nevo

[rpn]

Spiritual death comes from sin.  Jesus was sinless.  Therefore no, he did experience spiritual death.   But perhaps when he spoke on the cross he was experiencing how it feels to be spiritually dead, to be truly and fully alone.

[JLHPROF]

Spiritual death comes from sin.  Jesus was sinless.  Therefore no, he did experience spiritual death.   But perhaps when he spoke on the cross he was experiencing how it feels to be spiritually dead, to be truly and fully alone.

 

That echoes my feeling on the matter.  Feeling spiritually dead, but not experiencing the death of the spirit (the second death) which is reserved for perdition.

[Bobbieaware]

I was contemplating the death and resurrection of the Saviour today and thought on the significance of his cry on the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

In that moment may it be understood that the connection between the Father and Son was temporarily severed, so that Christ could comprehend and experience the spiritual death of sin, and come off conquerer by his divine power and sinlessness? That spiritual death was necessary to undergo spiritual resurrection and enable that for all humanity?

The following excerpt from Doctrine & Covenants 19 settles the question...

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted AT THE TIME I WITHDREW MY SPIRIT. (D&C 19)

Edited July 27, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Okrahomer]

Elder Holland's wonderful April 2009 General Conference talk "None Were with Him" describes "ultimate loneliness":

"Now I speak very carefully, even reverently, of what may have been the most difficult moment in all of this solitary journey to Atonement. I speak of those final moments for which Jesus must have been prepared intellectually and physically but which He may not have fully anticipated emotionally and spiritually—that concluding descent into the paralyzing despair of divine withdrawal when He cries in ultimate loneliness, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

https://www.mormonchannel.org/watch/series/mormon-messages/none-were-with-him-2

[halconero]

Thanks for the Catholic perspective 3DOP. What you said would generally jive with the scholarly consensus on Matthew, that it was a tool for proselytizing Jews, to demonstrate to them that Jesus was the fulfillment of Jewish scripture. In short, his cry on the cross was just as much a hopeful sermon as it was the fulfillment of scripture.

[halconero]

Spiritual death comes from sin.  Jesus was sinless.  Therefore no, he did experience spiritual death.   But perhaps when he spoke on the cross he was experiencing how it feels to be spiritually dead, to be truly and fully alone.

 

Spiritual death is a consequence of sin, but not sin itself. They are related, but they are still not the same thing. An example would be drunk driving. One does not need to drive drunk to experience the consequences of drunk driving. 

 

Christ may have experienced the consequences of sin, which is spiritual death or separation from the Father (without having experienced the permanent separation of the sons of perdition), without having had to sin himself. He took upon himself the consequence of a mortal body, which is death, so that death could be overcome by his Sonship. Likewise, he took upon himself the consequences of sin, so that we didn't have to suffer the withdrawing of God's communion, as Bobbieaware pointed out.

 

It's interesting to point out that all sins would be sins unto perdition without the Saviour, not just blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Spiritual death would be permanent, and the Second Death. I believe that the only reason the Saviour could not suffer the death involved with that ugly sin is because it involves the denial of his divine Sonship and Atonement, something he cannot do. The others though, I believe he probably suffered their consequence, prompting his cry on the cross, and thanks be to God he overcame them.

[3DOP]

Thanks for the Catholic perspective 3DOP. What you said would generally jive with the scholarly consensus on Matthew, that it was a tool for proselytizing Jews, to demonstrate to them that Jesus was the fulfillment of Jewish scripture. In short, his cry on the cross was just as much a hopeful sermon as it was the fulfillment of scripture.

 

Thanks be to you halc! I appreciate the consideration.

[Mormonmaniac]

I was contemplating the death and resurrection of the Saviour today and thought on the significance of his cry on the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

In that moment may it be understood that the connection between the Father and Son was temporarily severed, so that Christ could comprehend and experience the spiritual death of sin, and come off conquerer by his divine power and sinlessness? That spiritual death was necessary to undergo spiritual resurrection and enable that for all humanity?

Christ never suffered spiritual death. spiritual death is being dead unto good works. Only a sinner can die to the things of the spirit (godliness). Christ only says that he was put to death in the body for our sins, not put to death in the spirit. During the atonement Christ told his apostles that they would all go and separate themselves from him but that he would not be alone and that the Father is always with him, even in his ordeal in Gethsemane and the cross.-

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. (John 16:32)

[Bobbieaware]

Christ never suffered spiritual death. spiritual death is being dead unto good works. Only a sinner can die to the things of the spirit (godliness). Christ only says that he was put to death in the body for our sins, not put to death in the spirit. During the atonement Christ told his apostles that they would all go and separate themselves from him but that he would not be alone and that the Father is always with him, even in his ordeal in Gethsemane and the cross.-32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. (John 16:32)

Doctrine and Covenants 88 tells us Christ descended in his suffering for sin "below all things," which means his suffering for sin was even greater than the suffering endured by the sons of perdition. By very nature, when one suffers for sin he suffers a loss of the companionship of the Spirit (which is why Christ cried out, "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"), and the loss of the companionship of the Spirit is the very definition spiritual death. Also, D&C 88 tells us that by descending below all things Christ is able to comprehend all things. Therefore, since he comprehends all things, Christ had to have experienced spiritual death in the flesh, otherwise he wouldn't be able to comprehend and perfectly understand ALL things. Finally, in D&C 19 Christ makes it clear that the withdrawal of the support and comfort of the Spirit was the foremost element of his atoning suffering.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[ERayR]

Christ never suffered spiritual death. spiritual death is being dead unto good works.

 

Spiritual death is separation from God.  Yes Christ suffered that separation on the cross when he cried out MY God, my God why hast thou forsaken me.

[Mormonmaniac]

Spiritual death is being dead to good works, unresponsive to godliness. This is how the scriptures define spiritual death.

[Calm]

"See also Damnation; Devil; Fall of Adam and Eve; Hell; Salvation; Sons of Perdition

Separation from God and his influences; to die as to things pertaining to righteousness. Lucifer and a third part of the hosts of heaven suffered a spiritual death when they were cast out of heaven (D&C 29:36–37)."

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/death-spiritual.p4?lang=eng&letter=d

Edited July 29, 2015 by calmoriah

[Bobbieaware]

Spiritual death is being dead to good works, unresponsive to godliness. This is how the scriptures define spiritual death.

If Christ did not experience what it actually feels like to "descend below all things" in the suffering of spiritual death, then he doesn't -- as D&C 88 declares -- comprehend ALL THINGS. The Lord knows how it feels to suffer as if he were the very vilest of all sinners, otherwise he wouldn't comprehend all things "according to the flesh." And it is for this very reason that Paul said the following:

21 For he (the Father) HATH MADE HIM (Christ) TO BE SIN FOR US, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor 5)

And this is why the serpent (usually a symbol of the devil) "lifted up in the wilderness" is symbolic of the Christ. If he doesn't really understand what it's like to suffer for sin, then he won't be able to effectively save and succor us while we are still struggling with sin.

[Guest]

I was contemplating the death and resurrection of the Saviour today and thought on the significance of his cry on the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

In that moment may it be understood that the connection between the Father and Son was temporarily severed, so that Christ could comprehend and experience the spiritual death of sin, and come off conquerer by his divine power and sinlessness? That spiritual death was necessary to undergo spiritual resurrection and enable that for all humanity?

No he not experience Spiritual death, only sin can cause it. Christ never sinned.

[Bobbieaware]

No he not experience Spiritual death, only sin can cause it. Christ never sinned.

Here is the all-important point.that almost everybody is missing: Christ's suffering allowed him to know exactly what it FEELS LIKE to suffer spiritual death. And just how does one suffer for sin UNLESS that suffering includes the withdrawal of the Spirit of God? If Christ didn't suffer a withdrawal of the Spirit during his atoning suffering, then he didn't suffer for our sins.