Did Christ Experience Spiritual Death?

[Mormonmaniac]

Why must that be understood?  You are making the same mistake as TheSkeptic does.  You think that because that is your understand it has to be universal.

It's what the scriptures actually teach. Think about this- we are all physically separated from God here on earth. By assuming this separation is spiritual death then children must be spiritually dead upon arrival to earth. Many have used this vagueness as the definition. But, the scriptures teach that children are spiritually alive until they become accountable and sin. So, separation itself is not the definition of spiritual death at all. So what is it? The word death itself means unresponsive. When we physically die our body is no longer responsive to the spirit. To be spiritually dead means that the spirit is unresponsive to the spirit of God/righteousness.

[Mormonmaniac]

I've noticed in your postings you're not quoting scripture to make your point. You might be more effective in making your point if you can find verses of scripture that support your views and then post them here on this thread.

Now, a couple simple questions: Do you believe Christ experienced a withdrawal of the spirit as he suffered for our sins? If not, then what was the nature of Christ's spiritual suffering that enabled him to suffer spiritually in our place and thereby atone for our sins?

Whether or not the Father withdrew his angels and spirit from Christ is a mute point with me- not sure one way or the other. Spiritual death is not defined as mere separation.

[Mormonmaniac]

This scripture from the BoM is probably the best use and definition of what spiritual death is-16 And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness. (Alma 12:16)

[ERayR]

Whether or not the Father withdrew his angels and spirit from Christ is a mute moot point with me- not sure one way or the other. Spiritual death is not defined as mere separation.

 

sorry but I have seen this several times in the last week.  one of my pet peeves.  sorry

[Broker]

As a consequence of our sins, God withdraws his presence from us gradually and by only degrees. It's not an either or situation (I.e. either having or not having the companionship of the Spirit)).

For example, a man may unjustly scold his wife and not immediately ask for forgiveness, but that doesn't mean the Spirit has totally withdrawn from that man and that he is beyond the possibility of being profoundly touched by the Spirit while, for instance, attending a particularly moving fast and testimony meeting. In fact, it's likely that because the Spirit is still striving within him -- even though he has not yet asked the Lord or his wife for forgiveness -- that his conscience (also called the light of Christ) may get pricked with enough convincing power to motivate him to go down into the depths of humility and remorse and sincerely ask for that forgiveness.

When one experiences godly sorrow after sinning, that is a clear indication a portion of the Spirit is still striving within that man and that he hasn't been left totally bereft of the presence of God's light. It's only the sons of perdition who have no part nor portion of the Spirit remaining within them, and it is that total absence of the indwelling Spirit that causes them to continue in committing the grossest of sins without the least degree of conscience or remorse. If God's Spirit totally withdrew itself from our souls ever time we sinned, there would be no light remaining with us that would enable us to feel godly sorrow and help motivate us to repent. For these and many other reasons, I'm in full agreement with Robinson.

You may be confusing the revelation of God's divine approbation (approval) to our spirits (well done thou good and faithful servant) with the gracious and merciful indwelling of God's Spirit as we continue to struggle against sin and the fallen nature.

You make some good points. I think I generally agree.

[Bobbieaware]

Whether or not the Father withdrew his angels and spirit from Christ is a mute point with me- not sure one way or the other. Spiritual death is not defined as mere separation.

You didn't really answer my questions, so I'll rephrase:

1) The scriptures repeatedly teach that the wages of sin is spiritual death, or a withdrawal of God's spiritual influence from the lives of unrepentant sinners. So if God's decreed punishment for sin is the suffering of spiritual death, or a withdrawal of his Spirit, how could Christ suffer for sin in the stead of repentant sinners if he didn't experience the spiritual suffering that follows as thecessential consequence of spiritual death?

2) What is the nature of the suffering that Christ endured as he suffered for our sins?

3) What did Christ experience as he suffered?

4) Was Christ's suffering a different kind of suffering than men experience when they suffer for their own sins?

Please answer my questions directly and specifically.

[JAHS]

"To make the atonement, He (Jesus) consented to the withdrawal of the powers of eternal life which He received of His Father to the extent that He could experience the full effects of spiritual death for the sins of all men, and to the extent that His spirit could finally pass through the portals of death into the spirit world. Consequently, there is no sorrow nor suffering known to man that Jesus has not personally endured—no pain, no agony of soul, no turmoil in death. All this He experienced so that He could know "according to the flesh, how to succor his people." (Alma 7:11-13). In this way He became fully qualified to assist the sons of earth to achieve mastery of the flesh and the world and to rise from wherever they might be in the depths of sin and despair and come unto righteousness."

(GOD, MAN, AND THE UNIVERSE by Hyrum L. Andrus)

 

"Thus, here is another reason for the Father's withdrawal from his Son. Besides the need for the Son to descend below all things, besides the requirement that Jesus suffer spiritual death and hell, besides the need for him to know all our circumstances in order to be able to succor us according to the flesh, the Father withdrew from Jesus so that he, the Son, could have the sole power to determine his own death."The Savior of the world was left alone by His Father to experience, of His own free will and choice, an act of agency which allowed Him to complete His mission of the Atonement" 

(GOLGOTHA by Andrew C. Skinner)

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "Spiritual death is defined as a state of spiritual alienation from God—the eternal separation from the Supreme Being; condemnation to everlasting punishment is also called the second death."  (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, p. 217.)

 

[JLHPROF]

 

"To make the atonement, He (Jesus) consented to the withdrawal of the powers of eternal life which He received of His Father to the extent that He could experience the full effects of spiritual death for the sins of all men, and to the extent that His spirit could finally pass through the portals of death into the spirit world. Consequently, there is no sorrow nor suffering known to man that Jesus has not personally endured—no pain, no agony of soul, no turmoil in death. All this He experienced so that He could know "according to the flesh, how to succor his people." (Alma 7:11-13). In this way He became fully qualified to assist the sons of earth to achieve mastery of the flesh and the world and to rise from wherever they might be in the depths of sin and despair and come unto righteousness."

(GOD, MAN, AND THE UNIVERSE by Hyrum L. Andrus)

 

"Thus, here is another reason for the Father's withdrawal from his Son. Besides the need for the Son to descend below all things, besides the requirement that Jesus suffer spiritual death and hell, besides the need for him to know all our circumstances in order to be able to succor us according to the flesh, the Father withdrew from Jesus so that he, the Son, could have the sole power to determine his own death."The Savior of the world was left alone by His Father to experience, of His own free will and choice, an act of agency which allowed Him to complete His mission of the Atonement" 

(GOLGOTHA by Andrew C. Skinner)

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "Spiritual death is defined as a state of spiritual alienation from God—the eternal separation from the Supreme Being; condemnation to everlasting punishment is also called the second death."  (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, p. 217.)

 

 

 

Sounds like Andrus and Skinner get the Spirit Death and being spiritually dead confused too.

Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith describes the two different states (and in that quote attributes neither to the Savior).

[Mormonmaniac]

You didn't really answer my questions, so I'll rephrase:

1) The scriptures repeatedly teach that the wages of sin is spiritual death, or a withdrawal of God's spiritual influence from the lives of unrepentant sinners. So if God's decreed punishment for sin is the suffering of spiritual death, or a withdrawal of his Spirit, how could Christ suffer for sin in the stead of repentant sinners if he didn't experience the spiritual suffering that follows as thecessential consequence of spiritual death?

2) What is the nature of the suffering that Christ endured as he suffered for our sins?

3) What did Christ experience as he suffered?

4) Was Christ's suffering a different kind of suffering than men experience when they suffer for their own sins?

Please answer my questions directly and specifically.

I think the issue is in semantics and defining the context properly. For your #1, Gods decreed punishment is separation, that is true. The spiritual death itself is the death of righteousness in a soul- the anguish of knowing one did wrong and the consciousness of knowing it was wrong. #2, Christ suffered the penalty of a sinner. I went through a phase in my own life when it felt as if I was suffering similar to the condemned or perhaps just a very slight level of what Christ suffered. It was the most awful agonizing suffering I have ever felt could be possible by a person. I remember crying physically out to God to make the feeling of hopelessness go away. It was completely awful. I prayed a lot and it went away. Had several episodes of this extremely terrifying feeling. I honestly believe it is the same feeling that happens to those who descend into hell. Is that suffering spiritual death? No. This is where semantics come into play. I was very much spiritually alive during these ordeals. My connection to God could not have been stronger in my anguish. When Alma the Youngersuffered nigh unto death it wasn't spiritual death he was suffering, it was the effects of what one feels when they are condemned to damnation. Spiritual suffering can be had and experienced by both the righteous and the wicked. Suffering though, is not the definition of spiritual death. #3, Christ suffered the experiences of a condemned soul which caused him extreme spiritual and physical distress. #4. Christ suffered in great degree the same suffering we do when we sin. But, this suffering itself is not the definition of spiritual death. Spiritual death is the absence of light and truth in ones soul. Christ cannot experience actual spiritual death because he is and always was spiritually alive having the light always within him.

[Mormonmaniac]

Another way of putting it-

Christ paid the penalty of a sinner. But does this mean Christ himself became ensnared in Satans chains and went into spiritual bondage? No. In fact, Christ never even descended into hell or was held captive there. I do believe however he was given the experience to know what that torment was like without ever actually being truly condemned by God. In this sense, just like we do things by proxy in the temple, we can feel others pains and feelings without ever being truly them. As such, Christ acted in proxy for us knowing all our sins and feeling our anguish and pain yet without the actual true condemnation By God. Thus, Christ never was spiritually dead, but was able to know how a person feels who is dead in sins and trespasses.

[stephenpurdy]

There is a talk that has been floating around in Mormon circles for years about the "The Real Meaning of the Atonement" by Cleon Skousen.

 

In it, he says (with an air of authority) that the second death is the destruction of the spirit back into intelligence for the "sons of perdition" ... or at least that is what I understood from what Skousen was saying. 

 

By the way, I don't think that Skousen has the authority to make some of the claims he was making in that talk.  I am not a fan of his.

 

Here is a reply to that talk by the way

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/Skousen-Williams.pdf

 

-Stephen

 

 

 

He got that from Brigham Young.  It may not be authoritative, but why would the "second death/death of the spirit" be any different in nature for the "first death/death of the body"?

 

But then I'm a believer that the spirit birth was achieved and executed in much the same way as the physical birth.

I just don't know why we assume the spiritual bodies are so different from the physical bodies - isn't the physical always in the image of the spiritual?

 

I don't necessarily disagree with this particular idea (not that Brigham Young was right about everything) but it is possible that it is true. 

 

It raises some questions though.  Is God going to resurrect the sons of perdition ... and then destroy those resurrected bodies? (And spiritual bodies).

 

My point is that IF this is true, I don't think we can say that Jesus' spirit body was turned back only into an intelligence, therefore, in THAT sense, he did not experience the second death.

 

-Stephen

 

 

(What I disagree with is that Skousen went on in that talk to explain that Jesus didn't really pay for our sins.  Instead he just suffered a whole lot so that we would feel sorry enough about it.)

 

(In his book, The Cleansing of America, most of it just seems like a whole lot of his conjecture as if he is sure that it is true.  Again, he may be right about many things, but I am not a fan.)

Edited August 2, 2015 by stephenpurdy