Did Christ Experience Spiritual Death?

[Saint Sinner]

Here is the all-important point.that almost everybody is missing: Christ's suffering allowed him to know exactly what it FEELS LIKE to suffer spiritual death. And just how does one suffer for sin UNLESS that suffering includes the withdrawal of the Spirit of God? If Christ didn't suffer a withdrawal of the Spirit during his atoning suffering, then he didn't suffer for our sins.

I think this is a very important point you make and thank you for emphasizing it.

[Bobbieaware]

No he not experience Spiritual death, only sin can cause it. Christ never sinned.

No Christ didn't sin, but he suffered for OUR SINS and experienced what we will have to experience if we don't come unto Christ and repent. This all-important principle is at the very core of the glad news of the gospel message and yet you seem to have missed it.

[JLHPROF]

Spiritual death is being dead to good works, unresponsive to godliness. This is how the scriptures define spiritual death.

 

No, that is only one kind of scriptural spiritual death.  The scriptures describe two.

[Bobbieaware]

I think this is a very important point you make and thank you for emphasizing it.

You're welcome.i'm finding it astonishing that some here (they should know better) seem to have forgotten the basic gospel principle which says that although Christ didn't have to suffer for any sins of his own, he did volunteer to suffer for OUR SINS, as if he was the one who committed those sins.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Saint Sinner]

You're welcome.i'm finding it astonishing that some here (they should know better) seem to have forgotten the basic gospel principle which says that although Christ didn't have to suffer for any sins of his own, he did volunteer to suffer for OUR SINS, as if he was the one who committed those sins.

I think it rather obvious when we examine the last week of his life with the culmination of the Passion and the fulfillment of mission on the Cross.

[Bobbieaware]

I think it rather obvious when we examine the last week of his life with the culmination of the Passion and the fulfillment of mission on the Cross.

True.

[JAHS]

No Christ didn't sin, but he suffered for OUR SINS and experienced what we will have to experience if we don't come unto Christ and repent. This all-important principle is at the very core of the glad news of the gospel message and yet you seem to have missed it.

I agree that he did not suffer spiritual death because of His sins (He had none), but he did suffer the consequences of our sin, one of which is spiritual death. He was spiritually separated from the Father; the suffering of which caused him to bleed at every pore.

[stephenpurdy]

I think that depends on your definition of the "Second Death".  I think there are several applicable definitions.  And I think Christ may have experienced one kind but not the other.

 

 

 

There is a talk that has been floating around in Mormon circles for years about the "The Real Meaning of the Atonement" by Cleon Skousen.

 

In it, he says (with an air of authority) that the second death is the destruction of the spirit back into intelligence for the "sons of perdition" ... or at least that is what I understood from what Skousen was saying. 

 

By the way, I don't think that Skousen has the authority to make some of the claims he was making in that talk.  I am not a fan of his.

 

Here is a reply to that talk by the way

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/Skousen-Williams.pdf

 

-Stephen

[JLHPROF]

There is a talk that has been floating around in Mormon circles for years about the "The Real Meaning of the Atonement" by Cleon Skousen.

 

In it, he says (with an air of authority) that the second death is the destruction of the spirit back into intelligence for the "sons of perdition" ... or at least that is what I understood from what Skousen was saying. 

 

By the way, I don't think that Skousen has the authority to make some of the claims he was making in that talk.  I am not a fan of his.

 

Here is a reply to that talk by the way

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/Skousen-Williams.pdf

 

-Stephen

 

He got that from Brigham Young.  It may not be authoritative, but why would the "second death/death of the spirit" be any different in nature for the "first death/death of the body"?

 

But then I'm a believer that the spirit birth was achieved and executed in much the same way as the physical birth.

I just don't know why we assume the spiritual bodies are so different from the physical bodies - isn't the physical always in the image of the spiritual?

[Mormonmaniac]

No, that is only one kind of scriptural spiritual death.  The scriptures describe two.

The scriptures has only one definition of spiritual death with two different time allotments when it happens. The scriptures refer to the first spiritual death as when we sin in this life and we become cut off to God due to our becoming dead spiritually to his holy spirit. The second spiritual death allotment happens after resurrection and judgment and is pronounced upon the wicked because again they are cast out and become dead eternally to good works. This is referred in the scriptures as eternal death, eternal damnation, etc. It is important to realize that the suffering in the spirit itself is not in and of itself the definition of spiritual death. There are many times when my soul/spirit suffers and is lonely but yet I feel as if angels minister unto me just like they did to Christ in Gethsemane when he agonized in both the body and spirit.

[Broker]

I like the theory put forth in "Believing Christ" by Stephen Robinson, that although Christ did not commit sin, He became guilty of our sins when he took them upon Him. Thus, the Father withdrew because the Son was guilty of all our sins. 

 

I don't believe (but I could be wrong and am open to correction) that because Christ suffered for our sins, that God (or the Spirit) will stay with us through our sinful days. If we sin, I think God is gone until we invite Him back, though I believe He is quick to return if we are sincere in our repentance. If we have done things to plunge ourselves into darkness, we're alone and we experience what Christ experienced when the Father withdrew. Very scary. But I think it needs to be that way to motivate us to repent.

[Bobbieaware]

I like the theory put forth in "Believing Christ" by Stephen Robinson, that although Christ did not commit sin, He became guilty of our sins when he took them upon Him. Thus, the Father withdrew because the Son was guilty of all our sins.

I don't believe (but I could be wrong and am open to correction) that because Christ suffered for our sins, that God (or the Spirit) will stay with us through our sinful days. If we sin, I think God is gone until we invite Him back, though I believe He is quick to return if we are sincere in our repentance. If we have done things to plunge ourselves into darkness, we're alone and we experience what Christ experienced when the Father withdrew. Very scary. But I think it needs to be that way to motivate us to repent.

As a consequence of our sins, God withdraws his presence from us gradually and by only degrees. It's not an either or situation (I.e. either having or not having the companionship of the Spirit)).

For example, a man may unjustly scold his wife and not immediately ask for forgiveness, but that doesn't mean the Spirit has totally withdrawn from that man and that he is beyond the possibility of being profoundly touched by the Spirit while, for instance, attending a particularly moving fast and testimony meeting. In fact, it's likely that because the Spirit is still striving within him -- even though he has not yet asked the Lord or his wife for forgiveness -- that his conscience (also called the light of Christ) may get pricked with enough convincing power to motivate him to go down into the depths of humility and remorse and sincerely ask for that forgiveness.

When one experiences godly sorrow after sinning, that is a clear indication a portion of the Spirit is still striving within that man and that he hasn't been left totally bereft of the presence of God's light. It's only the sons of perdition who have no part nor portion of the Spirit remaining within them, and it is that total absence of the indwelling Spirit that causes them to continue in committing the grossest of sins without the least degree of conscience or remorse. If God's Spirit totally withdrew itself from our souls ever time we sinned, there would be no light remaining with us that would enable us to feel godly sorrow and help motivate us to repent. For these and many other reasons, I'm in full agreement with Robinson.

You may be confusing the revelation of God's divine approbation (approval) to our spirits (well done thou good and faithful servant) with the gracious and merciful indwelling of God's Spirit as we continue to struggle against sin and the fallen nature.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Ahab]

I think this is a very important point you make and thank you for emphasizing it.

Ditto.

When all of our sins were attributed to Christ as a scape goat, in effect he actually became the vilest of sinners. All of our sins became his sins then, and in effect we became righteous. That was the way it was supposed to work out through the power of the atonement, with our sins becoming his sins. And by virtue of the fact that Christ was only a scape goat, and that all of our sins were no longer Christ's sins after the scape goat was dead, Christ became clean again after he paid the price for our sins, which was spiritual death, when he died.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Ahab

[Mormonmaniac]

It is because of the light and life of Christ's spirit that Christ overcame physical death.That light and life Christ had was spiritual life, he never had that light nor life die. This is exactly why the atonement worked. By Christ not yielding to sin, his light and spiritual life stayed alive and through that power the atonement was made possible to overcome physical death. Had Christ spiritually died, the power of life would have been given up and no atonement would have been possible.

Again, suffering spiritually by Satan is not spiritual death. Spiritual death is defined by the light of good within us dimming and leaving because the good works die and we choose darkness over light. That

[Bobbieaware]

It is because of the light and life of Christ's spirit that Christ overcame physical death.That light and life Christ had was spiritual life, he never had that light nor life die. This is exactly why the atonement worked. By Christ not yielding to sin, his light and spiritual life stayed alive and through that power the atonement was made possible to overcome physical death. Had Christ spiritually died, the power of life would have been given up and no atonement would have been possible.

Again, suffering spiritually by Satan is not spiritual death. Spiritual death is defined by the light of good within us dimming and leaving because the good works die and we choose darkness over light. That

Christ experienced the effects of spiritual death, even though he did not die spiritually in the usual sense of that expression. And if Christ had not experienced the effects and consequenses of spiritual death, then it couldn't be said of him that he knows all things. If he, through his atoning sacrifice, did not experience what it feels like to be condemned as the very vilest of sinners, then he wouldn't know how to effectively succor his people with true empathy, mercy and compassion. In D&C 19, the Lord clearly indjcates his atoning suffering mostly involved a withdrawal of the Spirit of his Father. There is no argument with this, as Elder Holland so powerfully taught in a recent General Conference.

[Mormonmaniac]

Christ experienced the effects of spiritual death, even though he did not die spiritually in the usual sense of that expression. And if Christ had not experienced the effects and consequenses of spiritual death, then it couldn't be said of him that he knows all things. If he, through his atoning sacrifice, did not experience what it feels like to be condemned as the very vilest of sinners, then he wouldn't know how to effectively succor his people with true empathy, mercy and compassion. In D&C 19, the Lord clearly indjcates his atoning suffering mostly involved a withdrawal of the Spirit of his Father. There is no argument with this, as Elder Holland so powerfully taught in a recent General Conference.

I agree with you. I am just trying to perhaps say that spiritual death is not defined "just" as the removal of the Fathers/Christ's spirit from a person. Spiritual death is the actual death of righteousness in ones spirit because they choose darkness instead of the light. The light of truth is spiritual life and one can never die spiritually as long as he has the light of truth (spiritual life) within him. No doubt in my mind that Christ suffered horrendously in both body and spirit which led to his physical death of which he gave up on his own ability so that he could be raised up to life. That spiritual anguish/suffering, as bad as it was, was not spiritual death but rather as you say- the consequences of one who is spiritually dead. Throughout that ordeal Christ was completely fully spiritually alive in God and righteousness.

[ERayR]

I agree with you. I am just trying to perhaps say that spiritual death is not defined "just" as the removal of the Fathers/Christ's spirit from a person. Spiritual death is the actual death of righteousness in ones spirit because they choose darkness instead of the light. The light of truth is spiritual life and one can never die spiritually as long as he has the light of truth (spiritual life) within him. No doubt in my mind that Christ suffered horrendously in both body and spirit which led to his physical death of which he gave up on his own ability so that he could be raised up to life. That spiritual anguish/suffering, as bad as it was, was not spiritual death but rather as you say- the consequences of one who is spiritually dead. Throughout that ordeal Christ was completely fully spiritually alive in God and righteousness.

 

Then why did he cry out that he had been abandoned/forsaken?  To be fully spiritually alive in God would mean that he was still connected but his words indicate the connection had (for the moment) been severed and the plan completed.

[Ahab]

I agree with you. I am just trying to perhaps say that spiritual death is not defined "just" as the removal of the Fathers/Christ's spirit from a person.

That's what it is, though. Any person separated from our Father (or his spirit) still has whatever light he had before that separation, just as Christ still had all of the light and truth (intelligence) he had before that separation. He just lost the connection, because our Father cut him off, but he was able to get it back on his own after he died as the scape goat because then his sins (all of our) were then paid for.

Spiritual death is the actual death of righteousness in ones spirit because they choose darkness instead of the light.

Usually, yes, but not in Christ's case, except for his choice to take our sins upon himself.

The light of truth is spiritual life and one can never die spiritually as long as he has the light of truth (spiritual life) within him. No doubt in my mind that Christ suffered horrendously in both body and spirit which led to his physical death of which he gave up on his own ability so that he could be raised up to life. That spiritual anguish/suffering, as bad as it was, was not spiritual death but rather as you say- the consequences of one who is spiritually dead. Throughout that ordeal Christ was completely fully spiritually alive in God and righteousness.

Not really. To be "alive in God" requires an ongoing, continuous connection to God. I think about it as a telephone or internet onnection that allows me to get communication FROM God as long as I have that connection. Our Father in effect was cutting off the line of communication between himself and his beloved son while he was upon the cross. Christ later reconnected, by his own power, but still there was that time when he was cut off. And without Christ we can't get connected.

[Mormonmaniac]

But, no matter how you cut it, Christ did not suffer spiritual death. That must be understood.

[ERayR]

But, no matter how you cut it, Christ did not suffer spiritual death. That must be understood.

 

Why must that be understood?  You are making the same mistake as TheSkeptic does.  You think that because that is your understand it has to be universal.

[Bobbieaware]

But, no matter how you cut it, Christ did not suffer spiritual death. That must be understood.

I've noticed in your postings you're not quoting scripture to make your point. You might be more effective in making your point if you can find verses of scripture that support your views and then post them here on this thread.

Now, a couple simple questions: Do you believe Christ experienced a withdrawal of the spirit as he suffered for our sins? If not, then what was the nature of Christ's spiritual suffering that enabled him to suffer spiritually in our place and thereby atone for our sins?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Why must that be understood?  You are making the same mistake as TheSkeptic does.  You think that because that is your understand it has to be universal.

Spiritual death is what? Separation from God. I think the evidence is strong that that is what happened when Christ said what he did on the cross. He was indeed separated from God. He did suffer.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think that depends on your definition of the "Second Death".  I think there are several applicable definitions.  And I think Christ may have experienced one kind but not the other.

 

 

But good topic question BTW.

Second death and spiritual death are not the same thing. The 2nd death is an eternal separation from God. Or eternal spiritual death. I think that distinction needs to be made.

[ERayR]

Spiritual death is what? Separation from God. I think the evidence is strong that that is what happened when Christ said what he did on the cross. He was indeed separated from God. He did suffer.

 

I believe that is what I said.

[JLHPROF]

But, no matter how you cut it, Christ did not suffer spiritual death. That must be understood.

 

I agree based on the correct definition of "spiritual death".

 

Second death and spiritual death are not the same thing. The 2nd death is an eternal separation from God. Or eternal spiritual death. I think that distinction needs to be made.

 

I have made this distinction twice on this thread already.

 

The Second Death is the "death of the spirit/spirit death".  Scripture describes this event.

Being "spiritually dead" refers to our loss of the spirit of God and his spirit being withdrawn.  Scriptures also describe this condition.

 

They are separate.  I believe Christ experienced being "spiritually dead" when he took upon him our sins and asked God why he had been forsaken, clearly indicating the withdrawl of the spirit.

Christ in no way experienced the death of his own spirit.

 

One is about God's spirit within us.  The other is about our own spirits.  And people seem to continually confuse the two.