Thinking Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 why me wrote in the Are The Essays Backfiring? thread:Because the critics have pressured the church to do so by implying that the church is hiding it. And members have rather weak testimonies and leave the church over it. It is really that simple. So, all the issues addressed by the critics need to be countered by the church. What this has shown me is that lds testimonies are rather built on sand. Faithful LDS often point to a weak testimony as the cause of a member leaving the Church. Never mind the things that may have contributed to the weakening of the testimony in the first place. Let's focus on spiritual strength. Can a person who no longer believes in the truth claims of the LDS Church still be spiritually strong? I realize that there may be many interpretations of spiritually strong. Feel free to clarify as you see fit.
carbon dioxide Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 why me wrote in the Are The Essays Backfiring? thread: Faithful LDS often point to a weak testimony as the cause of a member leaving the Church. Never mind the things that may have contributed to the weakening of the testimony in the first place. Let's focus on spiritual strength. Can a person who no longer believes in the truth claims of the LDS Church still be spiritually strong? I realize that there may be many interpretations of spiritually strong. Feel free to clarify as you see fit.A person who leaves the Church can spiritually strong to a point. One needs the gift of the Holy Ghost to go beyond what they are personally capable of by themselves and they lose that when they leave the Church.
filovirus Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) My opinion:If a testimony is rooted in the core Doctrine of Christ; the peripheral teachings and principles, the historical percieved problems, and other percieved problems will not be as successful in shaking faith. Once a person starts putting more emphasis on lesser things, that is where they run into trouble. With the explosion of the internet in the last 20 years, people are jumping right into the things other than the core Doctrine of Christ before it strengthens sufficiently.As an example, the law of chastity would be considered a peripheral principle to the core Doctrine. A weak testimony about the character of God (core principle) could lead someone to believe that same sex marriage is not just approved of God, but even ordained of God. They allow their view of the law of chastity to trump a core doctrine. Thus they are led away by their own "vain imaginations" (1 Nephi 12:18) Edited July 18, 2015 by filovirus 1
CV75 Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Can a person who no longer believes in the truth claims of the LDS Church still be spiritually strong?Yes, I think one can be very spiritual (or spiritually strong) without having a testimony of the Restored Gospel (whether by choice or lack of opportunity) and even in rejecting an erstwhile testimony of the Restored Gospel. But no matter how strong, it is as inescapably insufficient as the mortal flesh is for attaining salvation or eternal happiness, without grace. “To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8-9; James 2:17-22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).” I include in those teachings of Jesus Christ adherence to the temple ordinances. https://www.lds.org/topics/grace?lang=eng We don’t always use the strength we have or use it properly and so even with all our strength we may impede our access to grace. We can also have a strong testimony but not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, and thus lose out on the grace and spiritual strengthening He offers. With grace, we can be spiritually weak and have weak testimonies and yet obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. As we become stronger in either or both, grace continues to move us forward.
HappyJackWagon Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Yes. Agreement with the church does not equal spiritual strength. Being a true disciple of Christ is spiritual strength. Sometimes that will include church teachings and sometimes that will require we reject teachings or actions. There are MANY people throughout the world with greater spiritual strength than mormons. The question, while it may not have been intended this way, is extremely condescending and elitist as if the LDS church has a corner on spirituality. 2
thesometimesaint Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 I don't have a testimony of Church History.
JLHPROF Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Can a person who no longer believes in the truth claims of the LDS Church still be spiritually strong? That is like asking "can an intelligent person make a dumb mistake"? A person who doesn't believe in the gospel can be spiritually strong but not recognize the spiritual truth. Just as many mentally strong people can come to bad intellectual conclusion, so spritually strong people can come to wrong spiritual conclusions and directions. That is why relying on our own judgement instead of Gods word is risky business. 1
Thinking Posted July 18, 2015 Author Posted July 18, 2015 That is why relying on our own judgement instead of Gods word is risky business. Except I have to rely on my judgement to figure out what God's word really is. 1
JLHPROF Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Except I have to rely on my judgement to figure out what God's word really is. Sometimes we do, as God told Oliver Cowdery that taking no thought and just asking without reasoning wasn't the way.Sometimes we also need to stop reasoning and ask God to just tell us, as Joseph did in the grove when he lacked wisdom. It comes down to determining whether the question is one that can be answered by reasoning and confirmed by the spirit, or as in some cases the question is beyond our individual ability to judge and pure instruction is needed. Edited July 18, 2015 by JLHPROF 1
Dgal Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Yes. Agreement with the church does not equal spiritual strength. Being a true disciple of Christ is spiritual strength. Sometimes that will include church teachings and sometimes that will require we reject teachings or actions. There are MANY people throughout the world with greater spiritual strength than mormons. The question, while it may not have been intended this way, is extremely condescending and elitist as if the LDS church has a corner on spirituality.Very astute observation.Yes, there are many many Christians though out Christian history who were very spiritually strong and were not Mormon. Even today, look at the persecution of the Christians in the Middle East. Many of them being martyred for their faith in Jesus. They are not Mormon but are very spiritually strong.
Tacenda Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 You need to state these mild negative effects to your wellness treatment provider just if prednisone they interfere with your everyday tasks and make it impossible ft you to continue from your regular life.In cafergot the initial instance, your skin can be far more conscious the results of the sun, in the 2nd instance you could obtain inflamed skin.You might quit wondering and obtain one of those today, due to the fact that we understand where the ideal albendazole overseas drug stores can be discovered, and they actually aid!Do not start taking Tadalafil in instance you are using any sort of other medications, also if those are some tretinoin cream 025 organic supplements or supplements suggested by other medical professionals.These metabolic adjustments buy prednisone without perscription include body, hyperglycemia, as well as dyslipidemia weight gain.Taking amoxicillin without a prescription this medicine with other medications that make you tired or slow-moving your breathing can induce risky or serious negative effects.So are you saying spiritual testimony is good medicine?
BookofMormonLuvr Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) I can only speak for myself, being a believer in the Restored Gospel, but no longer a member of the LDS Church (which many equate with being the same thing):I am now spiritually stronger than I was as a member of the LDS Church. It is not because I joined some other organization, (We are too focused on organizations, in my opinion.) It is because I have allowed myself to read the scriptures and appreciate them for what I believe they are telling me, not for what others tell me they are telling me. With that I am not disparaging anyone else who does rely more on teachers, preachers, and prophets than I do- but I have found peace and strength in my current walk with the LORD.I still have a long ways to go though. Edited July 19, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr
Calm Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 So are you saying spiritual testimony is good medicine?Good response (it rates a snort but right now am on ipad and can't remembering coding).
The Nehor Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Yes. Agreement with the church does not equal spiritual strength. Being a true disciple of Christ is spiritual strength. Sometimes that will include church teachings and sometimes that will require we reject teachings or actions. Uhhhh.....no. There are MANY people throughout the world with greater spiritual strength than mormons. The question, while it may not have been intended this way, is extremely condescending and elitist as if the LDS church has a corner on spirituality. There are people outside the church spiritually stronger then some Mormons. Some mormons are terrible at their faith. I am probably one of them. They don't have exclusive access to spirituality in general but they do have the actual truth and using it will increase spirituality beyond what any other group or individual can offer. If that is elitist then it is also elitist for the scientific community to accept that flat-earthers are more wrong by virtue of being flat-earthers. 2
Dgal Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Uhhhh.....no. There are people outside the church spiritually stronger then some Mormons. Some mormons are terrible at their faith. I am probably one of them. They don't have exclusive access to spirituality in general but they do have the actual truth and using it will increase spirituality beyond what any other group or individual can offer. If that is elitist then it is also elitist for the scientific community to accept that flat-earthers are more wrong by virtue of being flat-earthers.Then why is the missionary effort so ineffective? Even with the substancial increase in missionaries over these past couple of years, conversions rates have not really improved?
The Nehor Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Then why is the missionary effort so ineffective? Even with the substancial increase in missionaries over these past couple of years, conversions rates have not really improved?You seem to be under the misapprehension that people seek truth and real spirituality without flinching and would discipline themselves to achieve it.Don't get me wrong; many talk about wanting it but few actually do. Fewer still can take it when the going gets rough. If people were genuinely interested in spiritual strength Jesus would have had hordes of followers rather then being largely rejected. Our 19 year olds are not as good at the job as Jesus was. We are told to gather a few and that we will not convert the world.Our offer is not appealing to most. If it were that would be evidence that we are doing it wrong. 1
Dgal Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 You seem to be under the misapprehension that people seek truth and real spirituality without flinching and would discipline themselves to achieve it.Don't get me wrong; many talk about wanting it but few actually do. Fewer still can take it when the going gets rough. If people were genuinely interested in spiritual strength Jesus would have had hordes of followers rather then being largely rejected. Our 19 year olds are not as good at the job as Jesus was. We are told to gather a few and that we will not convert the world.Our offer is not appealing to most. If it were that would be evidence that we are doing it wrong.Good point.
Calm Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 "they do have the actual truth"Or at least an essential and necessary part of it that will lead to God and a oneness with him, who will share his infinite awareness and knowledge.
Tacenda Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 Saw on NOM, someone's poem they wrote. I sense a weak testimony of the church but still a testimony of a creator, which is spiritual. A Pragmatist's PrayerO Creator of the UniverseThere is little I can know about youThere are no writings about you I can trustThe scriptures held sacred by the religions of this worldContain much that is good, but also things I cannot in good conscience acceptThere is no prophet or teacher I can followThat I can be certain will lead me to youAcross history so many have been deceivedThere is no reliable way that I can know I am not one of themI know that my subjective feelings of certaintyAre no indication of the truth of my beliefsFor some of the most certain in their beliefsHave done the greatest violence in your nameThere is no person or philosophy in this worldThat is worthy of my faithTrulyThere is little I can know about youBut this I do knowThe world is full of beauty and uglinessAnd I will do what I can to increase beautyThe world is full of joy and painAnd I will do what I can to increase joyThe world is full of kindness and crueltyI will do what I can to increase kindnessThe world is full of compassion and indifferenceI will do what I can to increase compassionThe world is full of good and evilAnd I will choose the good as that which helps othersAnd abhor the evil as that which hurts othersThe world is full of love and hateAnd I will choose loveI will respect your creations And hold human life sacred above all other thingsO Creator of the Universe accept this as my moral codeAnd my prayer of faith and devotion For I know no other way of serving you
thatjimguy Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 Faithful LDS often point to a weak testimony as the cause of a member leaving the Church. Never mind the things that may have contributed to the weakening of the testimony in the first place. Let's focus on spiritual strength. Can a person who no longer believes in the truth claims of the LDS Church still be spiritually strong? I would imagine that people can be spiritually strong who have never stepped foot into an LDS church, so my basic response is yes.Of course, a lot would also depend on the circumstances on how the person came not to believe anymore.
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