Buckeye Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 The SCOTUS decision was not the only interesting thing published today. PBS News put out a report about difficult church history issues, members leaving because of that history, and the church's efforts to publish essays dealing with the history. Several post-mormons are interviewed. So is Laura Hales (Polygamy historian), as well as Elder Marcus Nash of the Seventy, who is identified having "shepherded the essay project." According to the Church's bio (https://www.lds.org/church/leader/marcus-b-nash?lang=eng) Elder Nash has a legal background, but not a history one. The report can be found here: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/2015/06/26/june-26-2015-former-mormons/26293/ There is also a transcript on the website, if you prefer that media, but I'm not pasting it into this thread. Thoughts? 4
Storm Rider Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 I know Elder Nash as he served as a stake president in our stake and other positions. He comes from a great family. I was not aware of his interest in history; I suspect he may have served in a project management type function on behalf of church leadership, but who knows.
HappyJackWagon Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 It would be very interesting to get some actual numbers about how many people are leaving. The article states as many as 50,000 leave annually in the United States alone, but there's no reference to back that up making it a meaningless stat. I would imagine that an astute journalist could find a way to get a legitimate number.
Duncan Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 It would be very interesting to get some actual numbers about how many people are leaving. The article states as many as 50,000 leave annually in the United States alone, but there's no reference to back that up making it a meaningless stat. I would imagine that an astute journalist could find a way to get a legitimate number. when they say leave is that go inactive or have their name removed?
carbon dioxide Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 when they say leave is that go inactive or have their name removed?It would be important for them to define their terms better. I hate it when people assert that if someone is inactive they assume that they no longer believe or committed. That may be true in many cases but many times it is not. I go through inactivity periodically but that is more to work schedule than anything else. 2
rongo Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 I know many people who are inactive by choice and consider themselves to have "left" the Church. They have no interest in removing their name, even when it is explained how one goes about doing so. This complicates "nailing down" an exact number of people "who have left the Church." 4
cinepro Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 It would be very interesting to get some actual numbers about how many people are leaving. The article states as many as 50,000 leave annually in the United States alone, but there's no reference to back that up making it a meaningless stat. I would imagine that an astute journalist could find a way to get a legitimate number. There are about 12,000 wards in the USA, so that would be 4-5 people per ward per year. I can't say I've ever lived in a ward that had that many people willfully leaving, but if we count those who just stop coming, maybe. 1
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted June 27, 2015 Popular Post Posted June 27, 2015 ...........................................................................................................Elder Marcus Nash of the Seventy, who is identified having "shepherded the essay project." .................................................................................................. Shepherding such a project would mean finding the experts to write the essays, and then to seek approval of final copy from the Brethren of the First Presidency and Twelve. Elder Nash would not himself have to know anything about Church history. Indeed, it would be an advantage for him to know little of history so that he can respond to the essays the way an ordinary member might. 5
sunstoned Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 It would be very interesting to get some actual numbers about how many people are leaving. The article states as many as 50,000 leave annually in the United States alone, but there's no reference to back that up making it a meaningless stat. I would imagine that an astute journalist could find a way to get a legitimate number.I agree. Any discussion about people leaving or how strong the church might be is meaningless without real statistics to back it up. 4
Tom m Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 they just don't have a testimony witnessed by the spirit 1
Paddy Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) they just don't have a testimony witnessed by the spiritI am not sure you can make that assumption. Faith crisis' are often associated with an epistemological crisis as well. The spirit may very well have witnessed to that person but now they have a legitimate reason to doubt that witness. Others do have a witness but choice to no longer associate with the Saints. A witness of the spirit does not automatically equal commitment to, or activity, in the church or gospel. Edited July 1, 2015 by Paddy 2
Joshua Valentine Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 the church needed to post these essaysTom m, would you please elaborate?
Damien the Leper Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 I like how one of the guys interviewed stated that GAs recognize that people leaving has little to nothing to do with sins. That's some great honesty. 1
LoudmouthMormon Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 While executive secretary, I went on splits with the bishopric to visit all the Do Not Contact folks. (Yeah, I know that sounds funny. But you got your name on our rolls as a member, you get a periodic visit from the bishop, even if you yell at everyone that knocks on your door.) More than a couple of single guys in their 50's and 60's with priesthood of teacher or priest. More than one vaguely unhappy look when they realized the mormons were paying them a visit. More than one invitation to come back to church met with a flat refusal. All were notified of the process to remove names from the rolls of the church. Half indicated they'd do it right away. None actually did it. Representative exchange:"Well, if you don't mind my asking, why did you stop coming to church?""Because it's three hours long! That's too long!" I dunno - you guys tell me. Have these people "left the church"?
Mars Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/ seeing as how it's self reporting, at least people who see themselves as mormon are not leaving in boat loads. a dip of .1% could be the initial crack before the dam breaks, tolerance of sampling, or something else altogether.
Gray Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 While executive secretary, I went on splits with the bishopric to visit all the Do Not Contact folks. (Yeah, I know that sounds funny. But you got your name on our rolls as a member, you get a periodic visit from the bishop, even if you yell at everyone that knocks on your door.) More than a couple of single guys in their 50's and 60's with priesthood of teacher or priest. More than one vaguely unhappy look when they realized the mormons were paying them a visit. More than one invitation to come back to church met with a flat refusal. All were notified of the process to remove names from the rolls of the church. Half indicated they'd do it right away. None actually did it. Representative exchange:"Well, if you don't mind my asking, why did you stop coming to church?""Because it's three hours long! That's too long!" I dunno - you guys tell me. Have these people "left the church"? They're not wrong
Gray Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/ seeing as how it's self reporting, at least people who see themselves as mormon are not leaving in boat loads. a dip of .1% could be the initial crack before the dam breaks, tolerance of sampling, or something else altogether. I suppose what is significant about it is that we have a high birth rate and have tens of thousands of proselytizing missionaries, and the growth rate is still about equal with general population growth. Kind of like bailing water from a boat with a hole in it. Edited July 1, 2015 by Gray 2
Damien the Leper Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 Val, who was the guy?Prof. W. Paul Reeve. He's a faithful member.
Calm Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) He wrote a great book. Nice guy too, from what I can tell (didn't watch this...won't for awhile either, but have 'eavesdropped' on discussions he's been involved in). Edited July 1, 2015 by calmoriah 1
Mars Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I suppose what is significant about it is that we have a high birth rate and have tens of thousands of proselytizing missionaries, and the growth rate is still about equal with general population growth. Kind of like bailing water from a boat with a hole in it. i get what you're saying - there could still be a lot of people leaving but mormons are just replacing them with more kids. or - perhaps people aren't leaving as much as implied. a request was made for real statistics about membership here int his thread. i think a statistically vetted poll from somewhere like Pew is about as good an indicator as you're going to get - especially since they dispense with records and ask people to say for themselves whether or not they self identify as mormon. i'm not really here to gloat over the numbers, or try to shove conversion rate in anyone's face. when people leave, it sucks. i'm not happy about it. when people try to use the fact that people are leaving to paint this picture of a withering church that's slowly dying because it can no longer shield its adherents from the patently obvious fact that it's all a sham and if sheeple would just wake up they'd leave... well, now i have a minor disagreement. hyperbole aside, i know we've got our retention problems, but i don't think people are leaving en masse. Edited July 1, 2015 by Mars 1
Damien the Leper Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 He wrote a great book. Nice guy too, from what I can tell (didn't watch this...won't for awhile either, but have 'eavesdropped' on discussions he's been involved in).What book?
Calm Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) http://bookstore.fairlds.org/product.php?id_product=1631 A necessary read imo for anyone wanting to be informed about the Priesthood ban and its development and impact. This is the other book that should be read imo, by Russell Stevenson: http://bookstore.fairlds.org/product.php?id_product=1606 Edited July 1, 2015 by calmoriah
Gray Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 i get what you're saying - there could still be a lot of people leaving but mormons are just replacing them with more kids. or - perhaps people aren't leaving as much as implied. a request was made for real statistics about membership here int his thread. i think a statistically vetted poll from somewhere like Pew is about as good an indicator as you're going to get - especially since they dispense with records and ask people to say for themselves whether or not they self identify as mormon. i'm not really here to gloat over the numbers, or try to shove conversion rate in anyone's face. when people leave, it sucks. i'm not happy about it. when people try to use the fact that people are leaving to paint this picture of a withering church that's slowly dying because it can no longer shield its adherents from the patently obvious fact that it's all a sham and if sheeple would just wake up they'd leave... well, now i have a minor disagreement. hyperbole aside, i know we've got our retention problems, but i don't think people are leaving en masse. I think whatever problems there are with retention go way beyond just Mormon issues. Christianity in general is shrinking.
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