Excommunicated: Carson And Marisa Calderwood

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well, it's half of the problem. People on either side can be just as unreasonable. 

That is true. I have seen some people that are members be very unreasonable to, particularity, people that were not even members of the church. But that is a different story.

[Gray]

That is true. I have seen some people that are members be very unreasonable to, particularity, people that were not even members of the church. But that is a different story.

 

And of course people who convert into the church can face the same kind of unreasonableness from their non-Mormon families. 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Gray

[Stone holm]

In modern usage the word "fear" is probably incorrect, it should probably be understood as "respect".  I think of like the way I felt about my Earthly father in the sense I did not want to let him down, embarrass him, or insult him -- that had nothing to do with actually fearing him in the sense that he would exact some kind of retribution or inflict violence on me.  He never instilled that kind of fear in me, and had he done so then I would have lost the respect and love I had towards him.

 

It also has something, I believe to do with the fact that a person may feel somewhat intimidated or uncomfortable or lack of confidence in the situation where they have doubts as to their own self-worth, righteousness, or behavior.  That is something generated internally that does not necessarily have to do with some thought that you are about to be struck by lightning.

[Jeanne]

Thanks. Could you make an estimate of how much longer the average student has to keep going? Are we taking an average of 1 semester or 2 years? Also, where are these students finding support? BYU message boards, reddit, etc?

I am not even qualified to give an estimate..really.  But being surprised at the number of missionaries that feel like they need to stay sane and have support when they are in the field and coming back to school.  I do believe there are more than one realizes. In my communication with some, they are usually in their 3rd year at BYU..to them, it is too little too late to transfer.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Jeanne

[rodheadlee]

 

 

So, I'm not clear, though.  You're okay with someone who believes, but secretly doesn't live the principals of the gospel, but not people who are living the principals but don't actually believe in it?  Do I have that right?

No,, I'm not okay with that. I'm not ok with any pretenders. We called them phonies when we were growing up. Be true to yourself, be who you are. God knows every word we type, speak or write. I've had it up to here with pretenders. People who pretend to be my friend borrow money and never pay it back, people who pretend to be honest steal from me, people who pretend to be victims of crime are the worse because someone goes to jail.

[ttribe]

No,, I'm not okay with that. I'm not ok with any pretenders. We called them phonies when we were growing up. Be true to yourself, be who you are. God knows every word we type, speak or write. I've had it up to here with pretenders. People who pretend to be my friend borrow money and never pay it back, people who pretend to be honest steal from me, people who pretend to be victims of crime are the worse because someone goes to jail.

 

Okay, this sounds more like a personal issue with what you perceive to be exemplary of living one's convictions, and having the courage to do so; not a doctrinal or policy-driven one.  I'll back off now.

[rodheadlee]

Your electrician analogy doesn't work, at all.  A lay ministry with almost no training who are told to rely on their feelings as communications from the Spirit to guide them in their teachings and activities does not line up with a trained and licensed contractor.  There's just not enough similarity there to for it to express any meaning.

 

This part of your post deserves a more thought out answer. My audio delivery to typing system doesn't work to well so I won't push the analogy. If we were in the same room talking to each other I could lay it out for you because in my mind the analogy works, because I used to get paid to go behind people that were pretending to carpenters and fix their work. Regardless, If your doing the best you can with what you have I'm good with that. It is difficult to always be in tune with the Spirit, sometimes it's words, sometimes it's pictures and sometimes it's a feeling. I don't do well with feelings and Heavenly Father knows that so He speaks to me or gives me a vision.

[rodheadlee]

Okay, this sounds more like a personal issue with what you perceive to be exemplary of living one's convictions, and having the courage to do so; not a doctrinal or policy-driven one.  I'll back off now.sd

Yes to me life is personal in every aspect, work, church play we should have integrity.

Edited June 5, 2015 by rodheadlee

[Maedros]

"Because we publicly share our doubts over core doctrines and that can cause others to doubt as well, we are apostates and have to be excommunicated." He hit the nail on the head there. And so we see that the Lord will not suffer that the church be polluted with those who seek to lead others astray - the good name of the church is preserved and the tares are separated from the wheat.

[Buckeye]

"Because we publicly share our doubts over core doctrines and that can cause others to doubt as well, we are apostates and have to be excommunicated." He hit the nail on the head there. And so we see that the Lord will not suffer that the church be polluted with those who seek to lead others astray - the good name of the church is preserved and the tares are separated from the wheat.

 

In the Lord's parable, the wheat and tares are teachings, not people.

[Tacenda]

In the Lord's parable, the wheat and tares are teachings, not people.

Thanks for the correction, I thought they were people....and knew I certainly might get taken out and burned after listening to a primary lesson the other week. In fact I thought it was a little harsh the way the teacher taught the lesson and said they'd go to hell. Especially when LDS usually don't talk like that. But then again, they do say to get fire insurance by paying your tithing.

[Buckeye]

Thanks for the correction, I thought they were people....and knew I certainly might get taken out and burned after listening to a primary lesson the other week. In fact I thought it was a little harsh the way the teacher taught the lesson and said they'd go to hell. Especially when LDS usually don't talk like that. But then again, they do say to get fire insurance by paying your tithing.

 

In the parables, people are soil ... which tends to be fairly fire-proof.

[rodheadlee]

In the Lord's parable, the wheat and tares are teachings, not people.

No they are metaphors for people. 

[Calm]

Whatever they are, they aren't separated out and burned until harvest time, they don't get pulled out as they are discovered to be tares.

 

So not the best parable to use for excommunications imo.

[ttribe]

Whatever they are, they aren't separated out and burned until harvest time, they don't get pulled out as they are discovered to be tares.

 

So not the best parable to use for excommunications imo.

 

Not to mention the whole dehumanizing people thing.

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-81-89/section-86-the-parable-of-the-wheat-and-the-tares?lang=eng

 

When Jesus first gave the parable of the wheat and the tares (see Matthew 13:24–30, 36–43), He interpreted most the details in the parable.

1. 1. 

   The man sowing seed is the Son of Man (Jesus).

2. 2. 

   The field is the world.

3. 3. 

   The good seed are the children of the kingdom (followers of Jesus).

4. 4. 

   The tares are children of the wicked one (those who follow the enticements of Satan).

5. 5. 

   The enemy is the devil.

6. 6. 

   The harvest is the end of the world.

7. 7. 

   The reapers are the angels sent to reap the field.

8. 8. 

   The tares bound and burned are the evil ones separated out and cast into fire (punishment) at the Judgment.

9. 9. 

   The wheat gathered into the barn represents the righteous who are separated out and made to “shine forth” in the kingdom of the Father.

The Lord did not interpret the following details in Matthew 13:

1. 1. 

   The wheat springing forth and starting to bear fruit.

2. 2. 

   The men sleeping.

3. 3. 

   The wheat and tares being allowed to grow together until the harvest.

4. 4. 

   The wheat being uprooted in an attempt to weed out the tares.

In Doctrine and Covenants 86, the Lord explains these additional details and gives more information on the first details:

1. 1. 

   The field is the world (see v. 2).

2. 2. 

   The Apostles are the sowers of the seed (see v. 2). President Joseph Fielding Smith explained: “In Matthew’s account the Lord declares that he is the sower of the good seed, and in the Doctrine and Covenants it is stated that the apostles were the sowers of the seed. There is no contradiction here. Christ is the author of our salvation and he it was who instructed the apostles, and under him they were sent to preach the Gospel unto all the world, or to sow the seed, and as the seed is his and it is sown under his command, he states but the fact in this revelation and also in the parable.” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:353.)

3. 3. 

   Falling asleep implies the death of the original Apostles (see D&C 86:3).

4. 4. 

   The enemy is Babylon (see v. 3), the great whore, which is elsewhere called the great and abominable church (see 1 Nephi 13:4–8). Babylon is a symbol of worldliness and evil, and therefore may be said to represent the devil’s power in this world. Those who remain in Babylon are those who follow the practices of the world and who do not accept the word of the Lord. Sometimes Satan’s persecution of the Church takes the form of aggressive persecution, such as killing the prophets or physically abusing the Saints. More often the persecution consists of social pressure against the humble followers of Christ. Those in the “great and spacious building” in Lehi’s dream mocked those who were pressing forward to partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and many became ashamed and fell away (see 1 Nephi 8:27–33).

5. 5. 

   The tares (see D&C 86:4) represent evil doctrines and those who spread them. “Traditionally, tares have been identified with the darnel weed, a species of bearded rye-grass which closely resembles wheat in the early growth period and which is found in modern Palestine. This weed has a bitter taste; if eaten in any appreciable amount, either separately or when mixed with bread, it causes dizziness and often acts as a violent emetic.” (McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:296.)

   President Joseph Fielding Smith pointed out that “even in the Church the tares are to be found. It is the tares which are to be gathered up and burned from all over the world, but those in the Church will also be gathered out and find their place in the fire. [see D&C 112:23–26.] The Savior also bore witness of [this. When] speaking to the Nephites he said: ‘For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from my people, O house of Israel.’ (3 Nephi 21:20.)” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:354.)

   False doctrines or individuals who present themselves as faithful members of the Church but are in reality servants of Satan are a source of temptation to the faithful and tend to choke or corrupt the word of God, or the good seed that is sown.

6. 6. 

   The Church being driven into the wilderness (see D&C 86:3) represents the time of the Apostasy. When the tares (the evil in the Church) grew to maturity, the result was apostasy. The wilderness represents the period of time when the Church and the priesthood were taken from the earth (see Revelation 12:12–17).

7. 7. 

   The tenderness of the wheat is explained in Doctrine and Covenants 86:6 as weakness, or newness, in the faith. When this revelation was given in December 1832, the Church was not yet three years old and was, therefore, still very “tender.” At that time many of the tares were not yet identifiable, and attempts to systematically root out those who would eventually prove themselves to be tares would have been very destructive.

8. 8. 

   As in Matthew, the reapers are identified as the angels of God (see D&C 86:5). But the Lord also indicates that at the time this revelation was given, the angels were anxiously awaiting permission to carry out their mission. (Notes and Commentary on D&C 86:5 discusses the time when that permission was given.)

9. 9. 

   The harvest and the burning of the tares (see v. 7) was explained by the Prophet Joseph Smith: “The harvest and the end of the world have an allusion directly to the human family in the last days. … As, therefore, the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of the world; that is, as the servants of God go forth warning the nations, both priests and people, and as they harden their hearts and reject the light of truth—these first being delivered over to the buffetings of Satan, and the law and the testimony being closed up, as it was in the case of the Jews—they are left in darkness, and delivered over unto the day of burning; thus, being bound up by their creeds, and their bands being made strong by their priests, [they] are prepared for the fulfillment of the saying of the Savior—‘The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire, there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.’ We understand that the work of gathering together of the wheat into barns, or garners, is to take place while the tares are being bound over, [in preparation] for the day of burning, that after the day of burnings, the righteous shall shine forth like the sun, in the Kingdom of their Father.” (Teachings, p. 101.)

 

1.  

[Calm]

No they are metaphors for people. 

They are both false teachings and the people who teach the false teachings intentionally.

[Stone holm]

If the wheat and tares are people -- which I feel somewhat confident they were and not teachings, then what the Savior was saying was that if you yank a weed out by its roots you are going to destroy some innocent by-standers, you are going to have collateral damage in modern military speak.  So you just separate them during the harvest.  If that is the meaning of the parable, then wouldn't the logic flow from that particular parable that if you yank somebody root and all out of the Church you are likely to have some collateral damage to other good and faithful members who might become doubters?

 

My personal belief is that a person should say what they honestly believe, and if they get bounced out of the Church because of what they honestly believe it shouldn't be that big a deal to them because obviously, if they don't believe what the Church teaches then they shouldn't be in the Church.   Our only concern should be whether the Church teachings are accurate and appropriate -- if we feel they are not, we probably have a duty to say so and leave.  If we really don't care whether they are accurate or not -- then we probably have a duty to just keep our mouth shut.

[JLHPROF]

In the Lord's parable, the wheat and tares are teachings, not people.

 

Having just finished a study group lesson on  D&C 86/Matthew 13 I can safely say that according to scripture they are people, not teachings.

 

Christ said as much:

Matthew 13:38 - 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

 

They can be ideas as well, but they are definitely people.

A revelation to Orson Hyde published in the Millennial Star identified a gatherer of tares:

 

Behold, James J. Strang hath cursed my people by his own spirit and not by mine. Never, at any time, have I appointed that wicked man to lead my people. Neither by my own voice, nor by the voice of my servant, Joseph Smith, neither by the voice of mine angels; but he hath sought to deceive and Satan helpeth him; but before of old was he one that was ordained to gather the tares of the field and mine angels have chosen him to do it because he was a wicked man even as Judas was chosen to destroy his Lord.  (Revelation to Orson Hyde March 14, 1846 – Millennial Star vol 7 No 10)

Edited June 5, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Jeanne]

Thanks for the correction, I thought they were people....and knew I certainly might get taken out and burned after listening to a primary lesson the other week. In fact I thought it was a little harsh the way the teacher taught the lesson and said they'd go to hell. Especially when LDS usually don't talk like that. But then again, they do say to get fire insurance by paying your tithing.

Some of my scariest interpretations came from Primary.  Children don't really see things in parables.  When you listen to an intense voice of an adult you think literal.  I, too, took that particular wheat and tares story that it was possible that I would be damned and burned

[Avatar4321]

Whatever they are, they aren't separated out and burned until harvest time, they don't get pulled out as they are discovered to be tares.

 

So not the best parable to use for excommunications imo.

But it is the latter day harvest. And excommunication is one way they are separated

[HappyJackWagon]

But it is the latter day harvest. And excommunication is one way they are separated

In the parable the harvest is at judgement, not now. So rooting out the tares will cause collateral damage which is why the parable is warning against it.

[JLHPROF]

In the parable the harvest is at judgement, not now. So rooting out the tares will cause collateral damage which is why the parable is warning against it.

 

You sound pretty certain on your timeline.  Are you sure the harvest/judgement hasn't commenced? 

[readstoomuch]

In the parable the harvest is at judgement, not now. So rooting out the tares will cause collateral damage which is why the parable is warning against it.

So, I get the impression that you and others think that no excommunications for any reason is the preferred situation.  One of those who stood up to show dissent about the brethren during the last conference got a sympathetic ear from his stake conference until he said that he was gay and it was no one`s business but his own what he did sexually.  He went on to say that he didn`t feel guilty about it and wash`t going to change.  So, his local leader was supportive about his dissent until he crossed a line. These people that are undergoing excommunication seem to be flagrant about their disbelief,  personal issues and in the end what seems to be a recurrent vocality about a liberal social agenda.  

 

Unless, you are saying that we should just stop setting boundaries and let people do whatever they want to do or say, then you are saying the boundary line is not in the place that you like.  Am I wrong and you are saying that the skies the limit for dissent?  What about dissent against issues that are politically correct.  That would  mean that members could say whatever they wanted to about sexual orientation or race.  No scolding a bishop for speaking out publicly against Harry Reid.  Well, the bishop is a church leader you might say.  Ok, only church leaders can`t say something that is blatantly outside of church norms.  Is that what you would be saying?  Doesn`t the fact that we are trying to find the boundary line require that there is some type of enforcement? 

[Avatar4321]

In the parable the harvest is at judgement, not now. So rooting out the tares will cause collateral damage which is why the parable is warning against it.

Where does it state that the harvest is at judgment?

Last time I read the D&C one of the points emphasized a lot was that the field was white already to harvest and we are called to labor in the vineyard one last time.