Excommunicated: Carson And Marisa Calderwood

[SeattleGrunge]

You use the term proudly, which causes confusion. Are you proud in the sense of being grateful or in the sense of being appreciative of Mormon culture?  Or are you using it in another way?  Can you explain exactly what you mean?  

 

I guess from this point forward you will have to qualify what state of being Mormon you mean.  But, then again, you seem to have taken that position for some time now given your lack of belief or faith in the teachings of the Church.  I can appreciate your appreciation of Mormon people and Mormon culture, but you have chosen to separate from those people.  Granted, the Church formalized that separation, but you have long since made that choice to begin with, right?

 

Not an easy choice or an easy position to find oneself.  Best wishes for a difficult path....for all of us regardless of what path we are on in this life. 

 

I am proud to be part of a hard working, kind people.  I'm also proud to be in the fringe of those that don't give in to what leaders tell them when they feel it is wrong, but speak out against that and push for what they feel is right.  We won't all agree, but I love my kind family and friends. Its easier to understand if you try to see how us atypical members see mormonism instead of how you do.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think those who resign or are excommunicated and still call themselves Mormon are simply rejecting the LDS Church's exclusive claim on the definition of the term.  I think they feel that there is enough "Mormon" about themselves (through family, community, remaining beliefs, how they were raised, etc) that it is still an accurate description.

So, in effect, they create their own custom definition of the term.

[ttribe]

So, in effect, they create their own custom definition of the term.

 

Why is that a problem?

[Scott Lloyd]

Why is that a problem?

It muddles the definition.

 

By the same logic, I could declare myself Jewish because there are certain specific elements of Judaism that, as a Mormon I embrace. I could say I admire Jews for the positive characteristics that they display and I want to emulate those characteristics, so, in spirit, I am Jewish to some degree.

 

I think if I did that, there are some folks who, quite rightly, might complain that I was muddling the definition.

[smac97]

Not the organization, the heritage and people

 

Let me see if I can clarify my thoughts on this reasoning:

 

I previously served in the U.S. Army, and hence I could accurately describe myself as a "soldier."  I am no longer in the Army.  So while I admire that institution (its "heritage and people", you could say), it would simply be inaccurate to say that I am a "soldier" now.  

 

My family has been LDS for several generations, but before that they were various flavors of Protestant and Catholic, and before that they were perhaps some kind of Celtic polytheists or druids or some such.  I venerate my ancestors, both those who were born into the LDS Church, those who converted to the LDS Church, and those who were never LDS.  I venerate their efforts to do good by whatever lights they were given.  However, it would simply be inaccurate for me to point to the religious beliefs of my ancestors and say that, because of those beliefs, I can describe myself as a Presbyterian, or as a Catholic, or as a druid.  For me to self-identify as affiliated with a religious group to which I do not claim membership is just not accurate.

 

Notwithstanding the foregoing, I will repeat what I have said before: "To be clear, I don't begrudge Dehlin/Kelly in their holding on to whatever vestiges of Mormonism they can. I'm all for it, in fact. But if and when they go beyond that and discount the significance of membership in the Church and of excommunication from the Church, I find that problematic."  I extend to you this same sentiment.  I hope your continued claim to being "Mormon" reflects some measure of affection for or affinity with the Church and its doctrines.  After all, if you find "the heritage and people" to be appealing, and if that heritage and people are defined by their devotion to the doctrines taught by the LDS Church, then those doctrines can't be totally repellant.

 

So regardless of semantic, or even substantive, disagreements which may exist between us regarding the LDS Church, I wish you the best in your future endeavors.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited June 2, 2015 by smac97

[ttribe]

It muddles the definition.

 

By the same logic, I could declare myself Jewish because there are certain specific elements of Judaism that, as a Mormon I embrace. I could say I admire Jews for the positive characteristics that they display and I want to emulate those characteristics, so, in spirit, I am Jewish to some degree.

 

I think if I did that, there are some folks who, quite rightly, might complain that I was muddling the definition.

 

With respect, Scott, I don't think that's a very good comparison.  Were you born into a family that claimed Judaism as its dominant belief system?  Did you devote time to serving in your local temple (not LDS)?  Did you marry in its traditions and begin raising your children in its teachings?  Most of the people who are claiming "Mormon" roots and a wish to retain that identity, exclusive of membership in the actual organization known by the nick-name, did all of those things relative to the LDS Church, its traditions, and its related culture.  It's a core part of their personal history and, despite the fact that they may have changed their minds as to certain fundamental doctrinal positions, they have a claim to that past as being inseparable from who they are at this point.  I just don't get the consternation over their desire to do so.

Edited June 2, 2015 by ttribe

[Senator]

It muddles the definition.

 

By the same logic, I could declare myself Jewish because there are certain specific elements of Judaism that, as a Mormon I embrace. I could say I admire Jews for the positive characteristics that they display and I want to emulate those characteristics, so, in spirit, I am Jewish to some degree.

 

I think if I did that, there are some folks who, quite rightly, might complain that I was muddling the definition.

 

Well, you know what they say about complainers......

[Storm Rider]

I am proud to be part of a hard working, kind people.  I'm also proud to be in the fringe of those that don't give in to what leaders tell them when they feel it is wrong, but speak out against that and push for what they feel is right.  We won't all agree, but I love my kind family and friends. Its easier to understand if you try to see how us atypical members see mormonism instead of how you do.

 

I think I have a better understanding of what you mean when you say you are proud.  Thanks for the explanation.  

 

As for me personally, I don't think I have a feeling of proud for where I am vis a vis other members.  I guess I have just never thought about it in those terms.  I tend to look at myself in relation to the truths I have learned and my desire to follow the Savior.  Maybe I am too focused on myself, but I really have more problems than i can deal with and don't have time to compare myself to Brother John across the street or in the community, the next ward, etc.  Additionally, I can certainly get up on a soap box about some pet peeves, but I have never felt the need to become a loud speaker about personal issues to the world at large.  I share them with members in my ward when the occasion presents itself, but there is so much going I just have other priorities.  

 

It is easy to love our friends and family; it is harder to love those who abuse us.  It is good to count our blessings regardless of our present condition.  I acknowledge that I have never wanted to be Zorro - out to fight against all that one feels is wrong in the world.  I don't want to carve my "Z" in those things I have determined as bad.  I let the bad take care of themselves and I seek out those in are in need and are open to a hand of fellowship.  

 

We are not so different that I don't understand your feelings of pride and empathize completely with them.  

[Scott Lloyd]

With respect, Scott, I don't think that's a very good comparison.  Were you born into a family that claimed Judaism as its dominant belief system? 

No, but according to the Wikipedia entry that Smac cited, you don't have to be born Jewish to be considered Jewish. Under normative definitions it could include those who convert.

 

Did you devote time to serving in your local temple (not LDS)?

 

Do all Jews do that?

 

  Did you marry in its traditions and begin raising your children in its teachings? 

 

As I said, I accept certain aspects of its traditions and teachings, those that coincide with my Mormonism, and I teach my children to do the same.

 

Remember, I get to create my own custom definition, if we apply the same logic as do those who declare themselves still Mormon after they have rejected the faith.

 

Most of the people who are claiming "Mormon" roots and a wish to retain that identity, exclusive of membership in the actual organization known by the nick-name, did all of those things relative to the LDS Church, its traditions, and its related culture.

 

 

But, you see, I believe that Judaism and Mormonism have common origins. Ergo, by the custom definition I create, I can claim Jewish identity to the extent that our origins and cultures overlap. Seems as reasonable to me as rejecting the Mormon faith but still claiming to be Mormon.

 

  It's core part of their personal history and, despite the fact that they may have changed their minds as to certain fundamental doctrinal positions, have a claim to that past as being inseparable from who they are at this point. 

 

Israelite lineage is a core part of my personal belief and history as well. It's a belief that overlaps with Judaism. Ergo, I am Jewish (according to my theoretical custom definition).

 

I just don't get the consternation over their desire to do so.

 

And I don't get your consternation over my custom definition.

 

Why is it a problem?

 

I will grant you one thing: There is a far greater secular ethnic component to Judaism than there is to Mormonism. Thus, it is easier to argue that a non-observant Jew is still a Jew than it is to say that an excommunicated or resigned Mormon is still a Mormon.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, you know what they say about complainers......

Actually, I don't. But it's probably irrelevant anyway.

[stemelbow]

Excluding people from groups that they themselves see themselves in is just ridiculous. This is exactly like the whole effort to say Mormons aren't Christian to me. Everyone is many things. No one is just a Mormon. Stuffing people in categories and holding them to those categories is one thing--to exclude them on technicality grounds, seems silly.

[Senator]

Other than peaking curiosity, I don't have any problem with anyone wanting to call themselves Mormon.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think I have a better understanding of what you mean when you say you are proud.  Thanks for the explanation.  

 

As for me personally, I don't think I have a feeling of proud for where I am vis a vis other members.  I guess I have just never thought about it in those terms.  I tend to look at myself in relation to the truths I have learned and my desire to follow the Savior.  Maybe I am too focused on myself, but I really have more problems than i can deal with and don't have time to compare myself to Brother John across the street or in the community, the next ward, etc.  Additionally, I can certainly get up on a soap box about some pet peeves, but I have never felt the need to become a loud speaker about personal issues to the world at large.  I share them with members in my ward when the occasion presents itself, but there is so much going I just have other priorities.  

 

It is easy to love our friends and family; it is harder to love those who abuse us.  It is good to count our blessings regardless of our present condition.  I acknowledge that I have never wanted to be Zorro - out to fight against all that one feels is wrong in the world.  I don't want to carve my "Z" in those things I have determined as bad.  I let the bad take care of themselves and I seek out those in are in need and are open to a hand of fellowship.  

 

We are not so different that I don't understand your feelings of pride and empathize completely with them.  

This prompts a question (notice I didn't say it "begs the quesiton"): As the Church of Jesus Christ becomes more and more international and cosmopolitan in the makeup of its membership, will it become less easy to say that one is "Mormon" merely because of his ancestry and upbringing? That might become less and less relevant as time goes on, though I do believe it will still be vital to embrace the historical narrative I spoke of and the legacy pertaining thereto.

[Scott Lloyd]

Excluding people from groups that they themselves see themselves in is just ridiculous. This is exactly like the whole effort to say Mormons aren't Christian to me. Everyone is many things. No one is just a Mormon. Stuffing people in categories and holding them to those categories is one thing--to exclude them on technicality grounds, seems silly.

So you wouldn't mind if I called myself Jewish then?

[Gray]

So you wouldn't mind if I called myself Jewish then?

 

Were you raised Jewish?

[Scott Lloyd]

Were you raised Jewish?

Do you have to be raised Jewish to be Jewish? Not according to the Wikipedia entry I cited.

 

But to answer your question, I was raised to accept certain doctrinal teachings, beliefs and traditions that coincide to some degree with Judaism. So, by the logic that one is free to create his own custom definition of Mormonism, I can declare myself Jewish on that basis.

[stemelbow]

So you wouldn't mind if I called myself Jewish then?

Why would I? Even more, why would a Jew (assuming you aren't a Jew)?

I"ve met many Mormons who are by descent Jews and seem to really prefer to be known as a Jew and Mormon, not to mention many other things. we all span many categories.

[Scott Lloyd]

Why would I? Even more, why would a Jew (assuming you aren't a Jew)?

 

You would have to ask a Jew that question.

[Scott Lloyd]

Other than peaking curiosity, I don't have any problem with anyone wanting to call themselves Mormon.

How about piquing curiosity. Do you have a problem with it then?

 

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

[Gray]

Do you have to be raised Jewish to be Jewish? Not according to the Wikipedia entry I cited.

 

But to answer your question, I was raised to accept certain doctrinal teachings, beliefs and traditions that coincide to some degree with Judaism. So, by the logic that one is free to create his own custom definition of Mormonism, I can declare myself Jewish on that basis.

 

I ask because if you were raised in that environment you'd at least have some kind of cultural touchstone with Judaism. The people who you think are unmormon who still consider themselves Mormon have a considerable degree of Mormon life experience - far more than you have with Judaism, I'd guess. 

 

In any case, "Mormon" isn't exactly a synonym for "Latter-day Saint." You can be the former without being the latter. 

[Senator]

How about piquing curiosity. Do you have a problem with it then?

 

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

You simply can't.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Senator

[ttribe]

No, but according to the Wikipedia entry that Smac cited, you don't have to be born Jewish to be considered Jewish. Under normative definitions it could include those who convert.

 

Do all Jews do that?

 

As I said, I accept certain aspects of its traditions and teachings, those that coincide with my Mormonism, and I teach my children to do the same.

 

Remember, I get to create my own custom definition, if we apply the same logic as do those who declare themselves still Mormon after they have rejected the faith.

 

But, you see, I believe that Judaism and Mormonism have common origins. Ergo, by the custom definition I create, I can claim Jewish identity to the extent that our origins and cultures overlap. Seems as reasonable to me as rejecting the Mormon faith but still claiming to be Mormon.

 

Israelite lineage is a core part of my personal belief and history as well. It's a belief that overlaps with Judaism. Ergo, I am Jewish (according to my theoretical custom definition).

 

And I don't get your consternation over my custom definition.

 

Why is it a problem?

 

I will grant you one thing: There is a far greater secular ethnic component to Judaism than there is to Mormonism. Thus, it is easier to argue that a non-observant Jew is still a Jew than it is to say that an excommunicated or resigned Mormon is still a Mormon.

 

You are intentionally straining the limits here.  I get why, but I don't think it serves your argument very well.

[Raingirl]

Are you stating that you cannot be a Jew unless you were raised in a Jewish home? 

 

You would be wrong.

 

Edited to add:  Quote function seems not to be working for me, I was responding to a specific post.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Raingirl

[Sleeper Cell]

Excluding people from groups that they themselves see themselves in is just ridiculous. This is exactly like the whole effort to say Mormons aren't Christian to me. Everyone is many things. No one is just a Mormon. Stuffing people in categories and holding them to those categories is one thing--to exclude them on technicality grounds, seems silly.

 

Except that most people equate “Mormon” to being a member of a specific church.  It is my understanding that even those Christians who believe Mormons are not Christians believe that one may still be a Christian without joining any church. 

 

With respect, for an ex-Mormon to call himself “Mormon” without making it clear that he is no longer a member of the church is misleading, if not outright disingenuous.  And if excluding people from categories on “technicality grounds” seems silly, what about unilaterally including oneself in categories on “technicality grounds” -- especially over the objections of the other category members? 

 

If an ex-member wants to self identify as one who loves his “Mormon heritage,” why doesn’t he simply call himself a “cultural Mormon” rather than hijack a term that means “member of the LDS Church” to most people?

[Scott Lloyd]

I ask because if you were raised in that environment you'd at least have some kind of cultural touchstone with Judaism. The people who you think are unmormon who still consider themselves Mormon have a considerable degree of Mormon life experience - far more than you have with Judaism, I'd guess. 

Well now, that depends on definitions, doesn't it?

 

I'd say that claiming Israelite lineage and believing the Hebrew Bible to be the word of God gives one a great deal of commonality with Judaism, more than you seem to acknowledge.

 

 

In any case, "Mormon" isn't exactly a synonym for "Latter-day Saint." You can be the former without being the latter.

 

That's debatable, but I'm not inclined to get sidetracked into that just now.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd