Excommunicated: Carson And Marisa Calderwood

[stemelbow]

Yes, I am Carson.  The short, short, short version is that I only felt the spirit when doing/seeing good things/actions, never when praying about church or scripture.  Then, after serving a super awesome, hard working, very dedicated mission (don't like to toot my horn but I'm serious about the level of dedication and effort I put into my mission) and still not getting an answer during my mission or when going through the temple on the way home (and also actually having a bad feeling) my hope started to crack, and significantly that day.  It then slowly cracked over the next 15+ years until after trying to fix the cracks with research and apologetics I eventually concluded that there were too many problems for it to be what it said it is and I gave up.  Church became too toxic for me and I said I didn't want to go.  It made my wife process all the things she'd heard me say over the years and she came to the same conclusion.  I was free to not go because we were on the same page so I stopped going and we wrote a letter that rocked everybody's world.  The guy that taught seminar 2 years earlier should not be the guy leaving the church.

I'd say God, if He be there, has a plan for you. Continue living for good purposes and feeling concern for people and He'll make things work out for you. I'd maintain that God keeps people outside His Church for His own reasons, as Orson Whitney, I believe said. This Church is too small, to meet the needs of too many others. I think I gather you don't believe in God, but don't fret...I doubt He'll hold that against you. He needs atheists too, otherwise He may lose us all.

[stemelbow]

because its my community, like Jews do with Judiaism and many Catholics do with catholocism...well most religions in today's world actually.

I like the big tent idea too. I hate hearing from members about their family who have left and the way they often view these family members. In some cases it seems like members have excised them from the family. and often they speak of them as if they are bad people. Ick...I'm sick of the infighting.

[bluebell]

Really? You may not be paying very close attention.

 

Try searching Reform Judaism or Reform Catholicism. This is a pretty normal process in religious movements. When people love their tradition and the people within that tradition it is natural for them to want and try to make things better within that tradition. Pretty basic.

 

Reform Judaism is actually a separate religion (well, two separate religions) from regular Judaism (for lack of a better term).  Is that what Carson is trying to do? Start a new church?

 

The only catholic reform i could find were also new denominations.  I couldn't find any reform that believed the religions were corrupt and didn't want to be members themselves but wanted to make it so other people were comfortable remaining members.  

Edited May 28, 2015 by bluebell

[ERayR]

Really? You may not be paying very close attention.

 

Try searching Reform Judaism or Reform Catholicism. This is a pretty normal process in religious movements. When people love their tradition and the people within that tradition it is natural for them to want and try to make things better within that tradition. Pretty basic.

 

And yet they would change what makes those traditions precious.

[stemelbow]

But why would you want to help people to stay in such a church with such leaders as you have described?  And can someone be a voice for something they denigrate and deny as true?

 

This is confusing to me.

Some seem better off in the Church, others seem better off out of it. Some see Church and activity as healthy for them. Others see Church and activity as unhealthy for them. I don't think that mean anyone who sees it as healthy ought to view the others with suspicion or anger. The flip is true too--the non Church goers need not view Church goers with suspicion.

I enjoy visiting people on our roster who don't come to Church and, probably for the most part, don't believe. I realize I'm always met with a great deal of suspicion and quite often that suspicion is hard to overcome. I'd prefer such enmity to be non-existent.

I don't know that Carson agrees with me, but your question sparked my thoughts. Sorry for stepping in.

[stemelbow]

This is really interesting. Usually we see that "apostates" are disciplined because of the effect they are having on others. It doesn't seem to be so in this case. In this instance it sounds more like the Calderwoods were disciplined because the leaders felt they didn't believe correctly. This is troublesome and doesn't square with JS's famous quote...

Hey HappyJack,

I tend to think his leaders had better intentions in mind. They probably see Carson and Marissa as good people who love their friends, family and neighbors. They probably think they are both very intelligent, well-spoken people. And they view them both as not believing, and in such a state are wanting to discuss the problems they see with Church in hopes to help people who struggle with Church and belief. In that, the local leaders probably feel like they are being undermined, as they view helping struggling people as getting them to live the gospel and not focus on the troubling aspects. In the leaders' minds there seems to be competing forces at work. They probably wish the best for Carson and Marissa, but hope they don't influence people to leave.

As I see it, though, both can be a part of Church. I think the Church would come out stronger if it didn't approach cases like the Calderwoods as enemies, or problems. Embrace goodness and forget the weakness of the individuals. Embrace each other, and welcome thoughtful perspectives. I think we'd all win in the long run.

[HappyJackWagon]

Reform Judaism is actually a separate religion (well, two separate religions) from regular Judaism (for lack of a better term).  Is that what Carson is trying to do? Start a new church?

 

The only catholic reform i could find were also new denominations.  I couldn't find any reform that believed the religions were corrupt and didn't want to be members themselves but wanted to make it so other people were comfortable remaining members.  

And how do those reform movements begin? Does the first person who is disastisfied break off and start a new religion? Doubtful. It's an evolution over time. Many reforms are made within existing religions before  new sects begin. It all starts somewhere. There is certainly a history of reform in the LDS church too. Look at the cultural and doctrinal changes that have been made within the church that started at the grass roots level. (Carson provided a handout for this- look back at the beginning of the thread for the links) If some things have changed it means others things can change as part of a continuing restoration.

[bluebell]

And how do those reform movements begin? Does the first person who is disastisfied break off and start a new religion? Doubtful. It's an evolution over time. Many reforms are made within existing religions before  new sects begin. It all starts somewhere. There is certainly a history of reform in the LDS church too. Look at the cultural and doctrinal changes that have been made within the church that started at the grass roots level. (Carson provided a handout for this- look back at the beginning of the thread for the links) If some things have changed it means others things can change as part of a continuing restoration.

 

Yes, but again, is Carson actually trying to reform mormonism when he thinks the leaders are corrupt and that the religion isn't true, and especially if he doesn't even believe in the existence of God?

 

I'm not doubting the existence of Jewish and Catholic reform.  I'm doubting that such reform started or was continued by someone who felt about those religions/leaders/God the way that Carson does and did not want to start a new church.

 

Because Carson said he was only doing what such reformers have done, i'm trying to understand the discrepancies that i see.  

[Buckeye]

And yet they would change what makes those traditions precious.

 

It's a good day when a devout LDS member can label the catholic tradition as "precious." Many prior leaders of the church took a much different view.

[stemelbow]

Yes, but again, is Carson actually trying to reform mormonism when he thinks the leaders are corrupt and that the religion isn't true, and especially if he doesn't even believe in the existence of God?

 

I'm not doubting the existence of Jewish and Catholic reform.  I'm doubting that such reform started or was continued by someone who felt about those religions/leaders/God the way that Carson does and did not want to start a new church.

 

Because Carson said he was only doing what such reformers have done, i'm trying to understand the discrepancies that i see.

I think change will come. Its simply true that we're going to have to see change, and perhaps some pretty significant changes. History of the Church suggests changes are coming, if we follow the established pattern. Something, I believe, I heard Carson say in an interview yesterday was all the significant initiatives of the church were started at a grassroots level. I may be misremembering, but if true, that's quite exciting and fascinating.

[thesometimesaint]

It's a good day when a devout LDS member can label the catholic tradition as "precious." Many prior leaders of the church took a much different view.

 

I think that tradition is precious to Catholics, and even agree with some of their theology. But Catholic tradition is not precious to me, and I don't agree with some of their theology.

 

Truth is truth no matter where we find it.

Brigham Young

[Duncan]

I like the big tent idea too. I hate hearing from members about their family who have left and the way they often view these family members. In some cases it seems like members have excised them from the family. and often they speak of them as if they are bad people. Ick...I'm sick of the infighting.

 

 

That ostracism works both ways as well though. People who leave the church just up and cut off all connections with friends and what not. I think for some as time goes on things get better and stuff but it works both ways and I agree with you about infighting

[Okrahomer]

That ostracism works both ways as well though. People who leave the church just up and cut off all connections with friends and what not. I think for some as time goes on things get better and stuff but it works both ways and I agree with you about infighting

 

I have (or had) dear friends who left the Church.  No matter how hard I tried to maintain a relationship, they would have none of it.

[rodheadlee]

  I was free to not go because we were on the same page so I stopped going and we wrote a letter that rocked everybody's world.  The guy that taught seminar 2 years earlier should not be the guy leaving the church.

You must mean everybody in your ward. No offense but I had never heard of you until this thread started.

[ALarson]

You must mean everybody in your ward. No offense but I had never heard of you until this thread started.

He already clarified earlier in the thread that he just posted it online on his blog and linked to it on Facebook.

 

So, when he said "everybody's", he seemed to mean all those who knew him or were acquainted with him and his writings. 

[rockpond]

John Dehlin interviewed Carson and Marisa again after their excommunication. It's a fascinating discussion that also covers a number of the questions/issues we've touched on in this thread.

http://mormonstories.org/marisa-and-carson-calderwood-discuss-their-excommunication/

[ERayR]

John Dehlin interviewed Carson and Marisa again after their excommunication. It's a fascinating discussion that also covers a number of the questions/issues we've touched on in this thread.

http://mormonstories.org/marisa-and-carson-calderwood-discuss-their-excommunication/

 

What might have been interesting is if he had interviewed their Stake President but we both know that is not going to happen.

[rockpond]

What might have been interesting is if he had interviewed their Stake President but we both know that is not going to happen.

 

I agree.  It would be nice to hear his perspective.  And I think Carson & Marisa would be okay with the president being public with it -- but, as you said, it won't happen (though not for a lack of desire on the part of Dehlin who already made an offer to anyone in the council who wanted to share their side of the story).

 

Even though Carson disagrees with the SP's decision, he stated that his SP is a good and loving man.  He believes that the SP really struggled with the decision.

Edited May 30, 2015 by rockpond

[Teancum]

But why would you want to help people to stay in such a church with such leaders as you have described?  And can someone be a voice for something they denigrate and deny as true?

 

This is confusing to me.

  Family, friends, social structure, etc.

 

Do you think after most of ones life totally dominated by the LDS Church it is easy to just walk away even if you don't believe it is what it claims?

[Teancum]

I guess i've never come across any Jews or Catholics who thought the Jewish and Catholic religions and leaders were corrupt and didn't want to be a part of them anymore but at the same time wanted to change the religions to make them more palatable for more people so more people would stay Jewish and Catholic.  

 

Are these Jews and Catholics on the internet?  Where did you come across them and their movements?

  I know many many Catholics and it is the predominant religion where I live.  Most have major issues with their Church and its leadership but are still proud to claim to be Catholic whatever the level of their belief or participation.

[bluebell]

Family, friends, social structure, etc.

Do you think after most of ones life totally dominated by the LDS Church it is easy to just walk away even if you don't believe it is what it claims?

No it would be very difficult, no doubt.

But if you believed, and publicly published, that it was a false church with corrupt leaders, what other choice would you have?

[bluebell]

I know many many Catholics and it is the predominant religion where I live. Most have major issues with their Church and its leadership but are still proud to claim to be Catholic whatever the level of their belief or participation.

Did Carson and his wife want to be able to proudly claim they were Mormon? Sincere question as I really don't know much about their goals where it came to the church.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Did Carson and his wife want to be able to proudly claim they were Mormon? Sincere question as I really don't know much about their goals where it came to the church.

He can answer for himself, but it seems to me that he wanted to proudly proclaim he is a member of a church mature enough to tolerate doubt within its rank and file. If the title "Mormon" applied I am sure he would've worn it.

[jwhitlock]

He can answer for himself, but it seems to me that he wanted to proudly proclaim he is a member of a church mature enough to tolerate doubt within its rank and file. If the title "Mormon" applied I am sure he would've worn it.

 

The church is mature enough to handle doubt. It's also mature enough to deal with outright apostasy. This thread isn't about doubt; it's about apostasy being misrepresented as doubt.

 

Evidently the quotes from Carson (courtesy of Smac) need to be emphasized again, since there's been so much effort to brush them under the rug:

 

They have published declarations to the world that "the LDS church is not God’s one true church as it states," that Carson has "became thoroughly convinced that the church isn’t true," that the Church " is just plain wrong on so many issues," that the LDS Church " is not, and never has been, God’s one and only true church on the earth," that it teaches "too much philosophy of men to truly be from God," that church leaders have  "twisted, covered up, whitewashed, rationalized and straight-up lied about (the truth)," and that their (the Calderwoods') "loyalty is not to the church but truth and righteousness." 

 

 

Yep. Just simple doubts all the way.

 

Not.

[bluebell]

He can answer for himself, but it seems to me that he wanted to proudly proclaim he is a member of a church mature enough to tolerate doubt within its rank and file. If the title "Mormon" applied I am sure he would've worn it.

That would be an odd thing to be proud of, if you didn't believe in God, wouldn't it though?