ALarson Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) I was free to not go because we were on the same page so I stopped going and we wrote a letter that rocked everybody's world. The guy that taught seminar 2 years earlier should not be the guy leaving the church.Carson, thanks for the posts and for more information on your situation. You say that you wrote a letter that "rocked everybody's world". Who did you send the letter to (or did you just post it online)? Also, I admire your courage and that you were willing to come here to answer some questions. I hope you and your family can find some peace and be happy. Edited May 27, 2015 by ALarson 2
SeattleGrunge Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Carson, thanks for the posts and for more information on your situation. You say that you wrote a letter that "rocked everybody's world". Who did you send the letter to (or did you just post it online)? Also, I admire your courage and that you were willing to come here to answer some questions. I hope you and your family can find some peace and be happy. Thanks. Just posted it online on our blog and linked to it on facebook. Felt it was better to rip the bandaid off instead of telling people one by one as they heard about it over time. Made it easier for us but more tramatic for church probably. 1
Tacenda Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Yes, I am Carson. The short, short, short version is that I only felt the spirit when doing/seeing good things/actions, never when praying about church or scripture. Then, after serving a super awesome, hard working, very dedicated mission (don't like to toot my horn but I'm serious about the level of dedication and effort I put into my mission) and still not getting an answer during my mission or when going through the temple on the way home (and also actually having a bad feeling) my hope started to crack, and significantly that day. It then slowly cracked over the next 15+ years until after trying to fix the cracks with research and apologetics I eventually concluded that there were too many problems for it to be what it said it is and I gave up. Church became too toxic for me and I said I didn't want to go. It made my wife process all the things she'd heard me say over the years and she came to the same conclusion. I was free to not go because we were on the same page so I stopped going and we wrote a letter that rocked everybody's world. The guy that taught seminar 2 years earlier should not be the guy leaving the church.Wow, you sure don't go down easy! Thanks for answering my question, I could probably ask a million more.
jwhitlock Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Thanks. Just posted it online on our blog and linked to it on facebook. Felt it was better to rip the bandaid off instead of telling people one by one as they heard about it over time. Made it easier for us but more tramatic for church probably. Didn't find it on your blog, but I did read what you wrote that Smac was referring to. I do have one question that came to mind after I finished reading. Take a person who respects the church and is generally supportive of its leaders and doctrines, who attends the temple and finds great value, blessings, and insight in doing so, who prays and reads the scriptures regularly, and who pretty much accepts that doctrine that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is indeed Christ's church and is directed by Him. Can that person, in your opinion, be an honest seeker after truth?
bluebell Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 yes and yes :-) If you believe that the church and especially it's leaders are all those things (stated previously by Smac and others) then why would you want to establish a bigger LDS tent? 1
bluebell Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Yes, I am Carson. The short, short, short version is that I only felt the spirit when doing/seeing good things/actions, never when praying about church or scripture. Then, after serving a super awesome, hard working, very dedicated mission (don't like to toot my horn but I'm serious about the level of dedication and effort I put into my mission) and still not getting an answer during my mission or when going through the temple on the way home (and also actually having a bad feeling) my hope started to crack, and significantly that day. It then slowly cracked over the next 15+ years until after trying to fix the cracks with research and apologetics I eventually concluded that there were too many problems for it to be what it said it is and I gave up. Church became too toxic for me and I said I didn't want to go. It made my wife process all the things she'd heard me say over the years and she came to the same conclusion. I was free to not go because we were on the same page so I stopped going and we wrote a letter that rocked everybody's world. The guy that taught seminar 2 years earlier should not be the guy leaving the church. Sorry, one more question. Why didn't you just resign? Why wait to be excommunicated from a church you didn't want to attend? 1
ERayR Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 I always have a clue what I am talking about, I don't always just give it away for free though. I will let you riddle this one.
toon Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 Yes, I am Carson. The short, short, short version is that I only felt the spirit when doing/seeing good things/actions, never when praying about church or scripture. Then, after serving a super awesome, hard working, very dedicated mission (don't like to toot my horn but I'm serious about the level of dedication and effort I put into my mission) and still not getting an answer during my mission or when going through the temple on the way home (and also actually having a bad feeling) my hope started to crack, and significantly that day. It then slowly cracked over the next 15+ years until after trying to fix the cracks with research and apologetics I eventually concluded that there were too many problems for it to be what it said it is and I gave up. Church became too toxic for me and I said I didn't want to go. It made my wife process all the things she'd heard me say over the years and she came to the same conclusion. I was free to not go because we were on the same page so I stopped going and we wrote a letter that rocked everybody's world. The guy that taught seminar 2 years earlier should not be the guy leaving the church. Stop leading me astray! 3
toon Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 I hope you can see that Smac's denoting their words as calumny is no more egregious than what they themselves have done with the public accusations they have made against the collective leadership of the Church. Does this mean you agree that Smac's characterization of their words as calumnies was egregious, albeit not more egregious than (in your view) the Calderwood's alleged accusations? *** for tat?
Scott Lloyd Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) Does this mean you agree that Smac's characterization of their words as calumnies was egregious, albeit not more egregious than (in your view) the Calderwood's alleged accusations? *** for tat?No. I still believe Smac was spot on. I wanted to leave ttribe room yo be reasonable. Edited May 28, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
SeattleGrunge Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 Didn't find it on your blog, but I did read what you wrote that Smac was referring to. I do have one question that came to mind after I finished reading. Take a person who respects the church and is generally supportive of its leaders and doctrines, who attends the temple and finds great value, blessings, and insight in doing so, who prays and reads the scriptures regularly, and who pretty much accepts that doctrine that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is indeed Christ's church and is directed by Him. Can that person, in your opinion, be an honest seeker after truth? Sounds like you are perfectly describing Dan Wotherspoon 3
SeattleGrunge Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 If you believe that the church and especially it's leaders are all those things (stated previously by Smac and others) then why would you want to establish a bigger LDS tent? because its my community, like Jews do with Judiaism and many Catholics do with catholocism...well most religions in today's world actually. 3
SeattleGrunge Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 Sorry, one more question. Why didn't you just resign? Why wait to be excommunicated from a church you didn't want to attend? I wanted to be a voice for those that wanted to stay but were afraid to speak up. My view of the church put me in a position where I didn't care if I got exed so I was more comfortable in being that voice. 1
Buckeye Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 saaaaaaaaaa C%$3d2sa76xsfdr I can't disagree with that logic. 2
HappyJackWagon Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 No and I didn't think to ask. We realized that the argument wasn't about leading people astray as much as if we were apostate. I think unfortunately that it was a given for them and I didn't think to push that. There were originally several people they thought I did do that to, but after talking to them and hearing from others they found out the problems in others came first, my help came second, but the image of me in their eyes had already been cemented so even though they found out that I didn't create any of those issues it was a fairly gone conclusion at that point that I was apostate anyway.This is really interesting. Usually we see that "apostates" are disciplined because of the effect they are having on others. It doesn't seem to be so in this case. In this instance it sounds more like the Calderwoods were disciplined because the leaders felt they didn't believe correctly. This is troublesome and doesn't square with JS's famous quote... "I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine. It looks too much like Methodism and not like Latter-day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It don’t prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 184 (edited out of TPJS at page 288). 2
rodheadlee Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) I can't disagree with that logic.It's a secret message from my cat Leia. Edited May 28, 2015 by rodheadlee
jwhitlock Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 Sounds like you are perfectly describing Dan Wotherspoon. Does that mean your answer is "yes"?
hope_for_things Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 A lot of other people started to have doubts and they feared it was from me and not part of a national/worldly issue. They aren't willing to compromise on saying I don't believe in core doctrines, despite what I quoted in Alma 30: 9, 11. No censorship specifics, just if I would be open to them. I reiterated if the church is true, we shouldn't have to censor the truth because it will handle it and not dealing with these issues makes more people leave than dealing with them will in my opinion. I think that for even very conservative stakes, if you don't publicly say you don't believe and don't talk too much about the hardest issues (JS marrying 14 year old girl w/o telling Emma or doing it how scriptures say for example) then you'll be fine. That's a deadly combo if you want to stay in. Thanks, this makes sense that you got a reputation of sorts and this reputation was that you were a doubter with dangerous ideas. No matter that you helped many people and eased their pain and helped them see they aren’t alone, there is this fear of the unknown from some orthodox believers where they don’t trust you and your tactics. As for not talking about the hardest issues, that is a difficult one. I think 80% of the time I express comments at church in positive ways that provide different perspectives that sometimes challenge, but don’t upset people. Then occasionally I say something and it’s apparent that some people are uncomfortable. I’m trying not to do that, and hope I can get better with time. I guess I worry that my missteps could get me in trouble, but I have a hard time keeping silent on some issues. 1
ERayR Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 This is really interesting. Usually we see that "apostates" are disciplined because of the effect they are having on others. It doesn't seem to be so in this case. In this instance it sounds more like the Calderwoods were disciplined because the leaders felt they didn't believe correctly. This is troublesome and doesn't square with JS's famous quote... Be careful in drawing too many conclusions as you are hearing only one side of this. I wouldn't bet the farm just yet. 3
bluebell Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 I wanted to be a voice for those that wanted to stay but were afraid to speak up. My view of the church put me in a position where I didn't care if I got exed so I was more comfortable in being that voice. But why would you want to help people to stay in such a church with such leaders as you have described? And can someone be a voice for something they denigrate and deny as true? This is confusing to me.
HappyJackWagon Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 Be careful in drawing too many conclusions as you are hearing only one side of this. I wouldn't bet the farm just yet.True, it is only one side but it is from a primary participant. Carson reports that an alleged negative impact on others was not brought up at the DC. I can't see why he would care to blatantly lie about this so I'm willing to take him at his word. 2
bluebell Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 because its my community, like Jews do with Judiaism and many Catholics do with catholocism...well most religions in today's world actually. I guess i've never come across any Jews or Catholics who thought the Jewish and Catholic religions and leaders were corrupt and didn't want to be a part of them anymore but at the same time wanted to change the religions to make them more palatable for more people so more people would stay Jewish and Catholic. Are these Jews and Catholics on the internet? Where did you come across them and their movements? 2
HappyJackWagon Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 But why would you want to help people to stay in such a church with such leaders as you have described? And can someone be a voice for something they denigrate and deny as true? This is confusing to me.Because it works for some people. There is a vast difference in having a personal belief and then expecting everyone to believe just like you do. I can have a different belief in something than a loved one but if I can perceive a value for them believing, or choosing to stay with a faith tradition then I would certainly encourage them to do what brings them the most happiness. It's not about what I believe but what brings them peace. I'm not sure why this concept would be hard to understand. (I'm obviously speaking for myself, not Carson, as I would perceive the issue) 3
HappyJackWagon Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 I guess i've never come across any Jews or Catholics who thought the Jewish and Catholic religions and leaders were corrupt and didn't want to be a part of them anymore but at the same time wanted to change the religions to make them more palatable for more people so more people would stay Jewish and Catholic. Are these Jews and Catholics on the internet? Where did you come across them and their movements?Really? You may not be paying very close attention. Try searching Reform Judaism or Reform Catholicism. This is a pretty normal process in religious movements. When people love their tradition and the people within that tradition it is natural for them to want and try to make things better within that tradition. Pretty basic.
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