Excommunicated: Carson And Marisa Calderwood

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Yep and the Catholic Church told the reformers and they told Joseph Smith and on and on so what is your point.

 

Not my argument.  It is probably in your Bible too.  Here it is for you again.

 

I Chronicles 16:21-22

²¹ He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes,

²² Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.

The prophets were the men out in the caves of the rock being hunted and killed for preaching repentance, they weren't the "elders of the church" in their fine houses at Jerusalem.

 

“The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that were sent of God, they considered to be false prophets, and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and these had to hide themselves ‘in deserts and dens, and caves of the earth’  and though the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds, whilst they cherished, honored and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, impostors, and the basest of men.” (Joseph Smith Jr.)

 

[ERayR]

The prophets were the men out in the caves of the rock being hunted and killed for preaching repentance, they weren't the "elders of the church" in their fine houses at Jerusalem.

 

 

And Is that from your journal?  I would enjoy seeing your your scrapbook photos.  As I remember Lehi had a fine home, lands and riches.  Eli and Samuel resided at the temple.  Sounds like pretty good digs to me.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

And Is that from your journal?  I would enjoy seeing your your scrapbook photos.  As I remember Lehi had a fine home, lands and riches.  Eli and Samuel resided at the temple.  Sounds like pretty good digs to me.

And as soon as Lehi started preaching, what happened? Don't know if you want to use Eli as an example of righteousness... Samuel and Nathan served during times of relative righteousness in Israel as High Priests- they got lucky..

Tell me... how were Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, Elisha, treated... Abinadi, Samuel the Lamanite? The Apostles?

[ERayR]

And as soon as Lehi started preaching, what happened? Don't know if you want to use Eli as an example of righteousness... Samuel and Nathan served during times of relative righteousness in Israel as High Priests- they got lucky..

Tell me... how were Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, Elisha, treated... Abinadi, Samuel the Lamanite? The Apostles?

 

What about Abraham and Moses and Joshua?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

What about Abraham and Moses and Joshua?

Apples and oranges and I suspect you know why.

[jwhitlock]

 Waterman is a die-hard believer in the Restoration and the LDS Church, he just believes it has gotten off track.

 

This is a bit contradictory.

[ERayR]

Apples and oranges and I suspect you know why.

 

I have never been good at clairvoyance so why don't you tell me what you are thinking.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This is a bit contradictory.

 

Why?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I have never been good at clairvoyance so why don't you tell me what you are thinking.

How of the circumstances of Abraham, Moses, and Joshua different then those of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elisha, Lehi?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

How of the circumstances of Abraham, Moses, and Joshua different then those of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elisha, Lehi?

When Jesus speaks of the Law and the prophets- who is he referring to?

[jwhitlock]

 

Why?

 

Do I really need to analyze the obvious contradictions in a statement for you?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Do I really need to analyze the obvious contradictions in a statement for you?

I like to read how people's minds work. 14.7% of the time here I am just posting something to see how people are thinking things out, not because I follow the position I am seeming to support.

[ERayR]

How of the circumstances of Abraham, Moses, and Joshua different then those of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elisha, Lehi?

 

I told you I don't do clairvoyance.  Given our different perspectives I have no idea how you might see it so just tell me how you see it.

[ALarson]

This is a bit contradictory.

I think that Waterman believes that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and believes in the restoration, but he also believes that Brigham Young led the church astray (beginning with polygamy).  He seems to believe that the current church (or corporation) is corrupt.  Again it's been awhile since I've read his blog, but that was at least my impression.

 

Someone else can clarify or correct this if I'm mistaken.

Edited May 27, 2015 by ALarson

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I told you I don't do clairvoyance.  Given our different perspectives I have no idea how you might see it so just tell me how you see it.

 

You know... I am not going to. I asked you some questions, and will let you ponder them, if you feel so inclined. If not, no skin off my nose.

[ERayR]

 

You know... I am not going to. I asked you some questions, and will let you ponder them, if you feel so inclined. If not, no skin off my nose.

 

I understand you just made a statement off the top of your head and haven't got a clue.  That is fine with me but it would be nice if you could just admit it.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I understand you just made a statement off the top of your head and haven't got a clue.  That is fine with me but it would be nice if you could just admit it.

I always have a clue what I am talking about, I don't always just give it away for free though. I will let you riddle this one.

[jwhitlock]

I think that Waterman believes that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and believes in the restoration, but he also believes that Brigham Young led the church astray (beginning with polygamy).  He seems to believe that the current church (or corporation) is corrupt.  Again it's been awhile since I've read his blog, but that was at least my impression.

 

Someone else can clarify or correct this if I'm mistaken.

 

I read his blog from the link you posted on the other thread you started; he's pretty derogatory about the church and its leaders, from what I'm reading.

 

Others may think that his blog posts are well thought out; I found, for instance, his rant about "obedience" in the church to be a rather shallow misrepresentation of what actually goes on.

 

But again, that's probably a discussion for another thread.

[Scott Lloyd]

I went to the link and read the opening post twice. It says nothing about Internet posting.

 

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65403-apostasy-boundary-maintenance-and-strong-communities/?p=1209497798

If anything, the Church tends to err on the side of leniency in administering formal discipline. Perhaps that is as it should be.

 

But the fact that someone has not (yet) been disciplined for a thing is not necessarily an indication that the thing was right or proper.

 

I dare say most of the adulterers in the Church get by without receiving formal discipline.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[SeattleGrunge]

Would you be willing to share what you think was the tipping point that started your leaders down the path towards disciplinary action.  The lines of what constitutes public opposition are so gray, and I’m trying to better understand what the dividing lines are.  It’s apparent that different leaders manage things differently (leadership roulette).  I’m also wondering if reflecting back you see any particular points that your leaders weren’t willing to compromise on.  Are some of your statements more hot button issues, which ones seemed to make them unwilling to compromise?

 

Also, you mentioned in your Mormon Stories interview that they wanted to get you both to agree to censorship as a way to stay.  Did they mention any specifics that they wanted to censor you on?  Are some subjects more sensitive than others when it comes to proclamations you’ve made. 

 

Anything you can share would be appreciated for people like me who want to stay in the church and find it challenging at times to navigate these waters.  Thanks

 

A lot of other people started to have doubts and they feared it was from me and not part of a national/worldly issue.  They aren't willing to compromise on saying I don't believe in core doctrines, despite what I quoted in Alma 30: 9, 11.

 

No censorship specifics, just if I would be open to them.  I reiterated if the church is true, we shouldn't have to censor the truth because it will handle it and not dealing with these issues makes more people leave than dealing with them will in my opinion.

 

I think that for even very conservative stakes, if you don't publicly say you don't believe and don't talk too much about the hardest issues (JS marrying 14 year old girl w/o telling Emma or doing it how scriptures say for example) then you'll be fine.  That's a deadly combo if you want to stay in.

[SeattleGrunge]

BTW- I'm curious about the DC and I didn't hear this referenced on the podcast with JD. Did the SP present any evidence of people who were negatively impacted by your efforts in reaching out to others who were struggling or your openness about your belief/disbelief? You certainly provided witnesses for your character and to represent the idea that you've helped people, but did they counteract that with all the dastardly works they surely must have attributed to you.

 

It must feel odd to have strangers talking about you but my wife and I were talking about you on our walk last night and it's extremely difficult to understand how/why the church would go after you. Unless I'm mistaken, you don't have the same kind of following that a JD or KK have so the reach and impact are much smaller. This makes people like me with a very small reach worry even more since there is no line drawn to know what will land you in the hot water of a DC. So many people have speculated that there must be "more to the story" or that you must have actively pulled people out of the church. I guess it's human nature to sometimes assume the worst about people but I don't see it. Did the Stake provide evidence or did they just make assumptions?

 

No and I didn't think to ask.  We realized that the argument wasn't about leading people astray as much as if we were apostate. I think unfortunately that it was a given for them and I didn't think to push that.  There were originally several people they thought I did do that to, but after talking to them and hearing from others they found out the problems in others came first, my help came second, but the image of me in their eyes had already been cemented so even though they found out that I didn't create any of those issues it was a fairly gone conclusion at that point that I was apostate anyway.

[SeattleGrunge]

First off, I also welcome you back to the board for how ever long you stay. I'm a good friend of DB Mormon (Bill Reel) who has sung your praises before.

 

Regarding excommunication of catholics, I live in a fairly catholic area and much of my wife's family is catholic, as are many neighbors. I hold them in high regard. In my experience, the Catholic Church does routinely excommunicate people, but it overwhelmingly tends to be clergy. I think that is the key difference to us. While we both have claims to absolute authority - and thereby reject each other's ordinances - the LDS Church has an added dimension in that all of its members are de facto clergy. Men hold the priesthood. And both men and women work through priesthood channels.

 

For me, the lack of professional clergy in the church is a two-edge sword. On one hand, it helps to give purpose and responsibility to everyone. I've seen many members grow through callings. On the other hand, though, it means that anyone who expresses some disbelief is viewed as a bigger threat than they would be to most other churches because. They are not just a "member" but a primary teacher, scoutmaster, or even a bishop.

 

Because all the sheep in our flock are also, to some degree, shepards, we end up killing a lot of sheep in our zeal to protect the flock.

 

Wow, to hear Bill has sung my praises means a lot.  Thanks for sharing that and good point about the comparison.  That is significant in that we can't draw a line between members and clergy like they can.

[SeattleGrunge]

I get that the statement is insulting.  Lots of things are insulting but are not slander.  I also get that the word "calumny" can be hyperbole, but Smac's defense of the word seemed to be rooted in a precise meaning - that the Calderwoods intentionally lied about their criticism.  I see no reason to believe that they don't actually believe in the truthfulness of their statement (even if others disagree).  That being said, I understand your feelings on the matter.

 

I do stand behind that statement still.  I do think the church has done those things and shouldn't have and should apologize for it and change tactics. 

[SeattleGrunge]

I think he's saying he tried to stay. he got kicked out for trying to establish a bigger tent--I think that's what he means with the rest of his line. I think it remains the case, though, that he was kicked out because it was feared that he would continue to influence people to leave. Whether that ever happened or not is probably a little immaterial at this point.

 

yes and yes :-)

[SeattleGrunge]

I'm late to the party, is SeattleGrunge Carson?  If so Carson, do you mind telling a little about what started your faith crisis?  I listened to your excommunication MS's podcast, twice now.  And I failed to hear what happened.  Mind wanders a lot. 

 

Yes, I am Carson.  The short, short, short version is that I only felt the spirit when doing/seeing good things/actions, never when praying about church or scripture.  Then, after serving a super awesome, hard working, very dedicated mission (don't like to toot my horn but I'm serious about the level of dedication and effort I put into my mission) and still not getting an answer during my mission or when going through the temple on the way home (and also actually having a bad feeling) my hope started to crack, and significantly that day.  It then slowly cracked over the next 15+ years until after trying to fix the cracks with research and apologetics I eventually concluded that there were too many problems for it to be what it said it is and I gave up.  Church became too toxic for me and I said I didn't want to go.  It made my wife process all the things she'd heard me say over the years and she came to the same conclusion.  I was free to not go because we were on the same page so I stopped going and we wrote a letter that rocked everybody's world.  The guy that taught seminar 2 years earlier should not be the guy leaving the church.