The Different Lives We Live

[Duncan]

I was thinking the other day about my Great Grandma, whom i've never met.She did herself a mischief in 1934. She grew up on the frontier, her husband (my Great Grandpa) was arguing politics and dropped dead in 1925. She had two adult children die before she did. She just led a rough life, like most others at that time. I highly doubt she ever met missionaries or even know about the Church. We had her work done. Yet, I know a girl here in the Church and she was born into wealth. When she won 16 she was $250,000 in a Ford World Modeling contest. When she was a little older she married some guy from Utah who was a millionaire and not even 30. She has TWO vacation houses, one is her dad's and one is her husband's or theirs. I see on FB them going on trips and they have nice kids, clothes, restaurants and all this stuff, I can't see her wanting for nothing.There are obviously people who are far wealthier than she is and people who had it far worse then my Great Grandma. I don't get why would God place people in these situations were it's like the lap of luxury and another person their life just got worse and worse and worse until they just "rusted out" and just gave up. Suicide is a bad thing but I don't know if I blame my relative for doing it, honestly, given her circumstances. Why would God place people in these situations given he knows the end from the beginning and therefore everything in between, to me means he knew she would do herself in.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Duncan

[Robert F. Smith]

Edmund Burke used to say that "life is nasty, brutish, and short."  For most people on this planet that has been the general case, with occasional bright spots of peace and good health.  Certainly we must read the Bible with the very hard times most people faced constantly in mind.  People were inured to hardship, never surprised by it.  Sometimes a community will provide mutual aid and comfort tor those that need it.  Could be that your greatgrandma did not have a community to fall back on, or that her sorrow was simply more than she could bear.

 

The real problem for most of us in Western Civilization is having too much and not truly appreciating it, or not putting it in proper perspective.  We need to show our gratitude, and to share our largesse.

[CV75]

I was thinking the other day about my Great Grandma, whom i've never met.She did herself a mischief in 1934. She grew up on the frontier, her husband (my Great Grandpa) was arguing politics and dropped dead in 1925. She had two adult children die before she did. She just led a rough life, like most others at that time. I highly doubt she ever met or even know about the Church. We had her work done. Yet, I know a girl here in the Church and she was born into wealth. When she was 16 she was $250,000 in a Ford World Modeling contest. When she was a little older she married some guy from Utah who was a millionaire and not even 30. She has TWO vacation houses, one is her dad's and one is her husband's or theirs. I see on FB them going on trips and they have nice kids, clothes, restaurants and all this stuff, I can't see her wanting for nothing.There are obviously people who are far wealthier than she is and people who had it far worse then my Great Grandma. I don't get why would God place people in these situations were it's like the lap of luxury and another person their life just got worse and worse and worse until they just "rusted out" and just gave up. Suicide is a bad thing but I don't know if I blame my relative for doing it, honestly, given her circumstances. Why would God place people in these situations given he knows the end from the beginning and therefore everything in between, to me means he knew she would do herself in.

As odd as it seems, I think God “hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.” (Acts 17:26-28).

 

I take “the bounds of their habitation” to include every material circumstance you mentioned. The circumstances of our mortality are designed to seek and find the Lord, whether in this life or the next. I do not think they are random, hence the foreknowledge of God in operation.

 

Some people see foreknowledge as being more absolute and all-encompassing than that, but as far as knowing beforehand what His children will choose to do in the times appointed and bounds of their habitation and their ramifications, I think He provides them what He knows they need in consideration of the magnificence of the Atonement and His Grace to return to Him. We don’t know that part of it as well as He does (Atonement and Grace, that is, and we hardly know what is going on with our times and habitations!), but must have faith in it.

[Bobbieaware]

I was thinking the other day about my Great Grandma, whom i've never met.She did herself a mischief in 1934. She grew up on the frontier, her husband (my Great Grandpa) was arguing politics and dropped dead in 1925. She had two adult children die before she did. She just led a rough life, like most others at that time. I highly doubt she ever met or even know about the Church. We had her work done. Yet, I know a girl here in the Church and she was born into wealth. When she was 16 she was $250,000 in a Ford World Modeling contest. When she was a little older she married some guy from Utah who was a millionaire and not even 30. She has TWO vacation houses, one is her dad's and one is her husband's or theirs. I see on FB them going on trips and they have nice kids, clothes, restaurants and all this stuff, I can't see her wanting for nothing.There are obviously people who are far wealthier than she is and people who had it far worse then my Great Grandma. I don't get why would God place people in these situations were it's like the lap of luxury and another person their life just got worse and worse and worse until they just "rusted out" and just gave up. Suicide is a bad thing but I don't know if I blame my relative for doing it, honestly, given her circumstances. Why would God place people in these situations given he knows the end from the beginning and therefore everything in between, to me means he knew she would do herself in.

The prophet Joseph Smith seemed to be wondering about the same kinds of questions when the Lord answered him with the following revelation:

5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;

6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, AND SHALL BE FOR THY GOOD.

8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? (D&C 122)

[Boanerges]

I've wondered about this too, Duncan.  As a result, I lean to the Deist side of things - God created us, provided an atonement for us, and pretty much lets us be other than that. I do think we're supposed to seek him out and believe in Him (and Christ) and do good. Beyond that I think it's mostly just up to us, and the circumstances you are born into and challenges we face (or don't face) in life are either happenstance or the result of our own choices (good and bad).

[Sanpitch]

Things that happen in life are mentioned in Ecclesiastes 9:11   "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."

 

I wonder about why things like what happened in Nepal and why 8,000 babies, kids and adults were wiped out is an Earthquake that they had nothing to do with and didn't cause.  God supposedly made the earth.  I don't wonder about individuals and the special attention paid to them by a supreme being, I don't think that happens, especially when whole nations are hit with tragedy. 

 

Why does the mother of young kids get hit with cancer and die leaving the kids without a mother?  It's all a game of chance.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Sanpitch

[Gray]

I get a weekly newsletter from a Reformed Jewish rabbi that I'm a fan of. He sent this last week, and I think it's relevant to the issue of whether or not God intentionally causes the circumstances you describe in your OP.

 

 

From our standpoint, such a God who rewards and punishes seems a projection of our own ego consciousness onto the universe. Reward and punishment, as motivations for proper thought and action, are ego functions, reflections of the way we teach our children before they are ready to better understand and to make their own choices and decisions.

 

If there were a God who could respond to human actions in this way, that God would have stopped the Shoah, the Holocaust, long before six million of us were murdered. That God would prevent natural disasters that claim thousands of innocents across the planet.

 

In some ways, we might wish such a system of clear rewards and punishments operated in our world, but that would render us always children, never growing to take responsibility for our own life choices. The process of evolution would be eclipsed by the need to adhere to unchanging rules and regulations.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Gray

[katherine the great]

Great post Duncan!  I think mortal life is inherently unfair and the best we can hope for is that eternity is fair.

[katherine the great]

Edmund Burke used to say that "life is nasty, brutish, and short."  For most people on this planet that has been the general case, with occasional bright spots of peace and good health.  Certainly we must read the Bible with the very hard times most people faced constantly in mind.  People were inured to hardship, never surprised by it.  Sometimes a community will provide mutual aid and comfort tor those that need it.  Could be that your greatgrandma did not have a community to fall back on, or that her sorrow was simply more than she could bear.

 

The real problem for most of us in Western Civilization is having too much and not truly appreciating it, or not putting it in proper perspective.  We need to show our gratitude, and to share our largesse.

Amen!

[strappinglad]

Life is not always fair , but it has been more than fair to me. As has been said, we need to be grateful for what we have. It can always be worse. I am sending you a PM which confirms what I have said and tells me a lot about a lot.

[JLHPROF]

Great post Duncan!  I think mortal life is inherently unfair

 

I agree with this.

 

 

and the best we can hope for is that eternity is fair.

 

This I think sells God short.  I expect far more from eternity.

[rodheadlee]

I was thinking the other day about my Great Grandma, whom i've never met.She did herself a mischief in 1934. She grew up on the frontier, her husband (my Great Grandpa) was arguing politics and dropped dead in 1925. She had two adult children die before she did. She just led a rough life, like most others at that time. I highly doubt she ever met or even know about the Church. We had her work done. Yet, I know a girl here in the Church and she was born into wealth. When she was 16 she was $250,000 in a Ford World Modeling contest. When she was a little older she married some guy from Utah who was a millionaire and not even 30. She has TWO vacation houses, one is her dad's and one is her husband's or theirs. I see on FB them going on trips and they have nice kids, clothes, restaurants and all this stuff, I can't see her wanting for nothing.There are obviously people who are far wealthier than she is and people who had it far worse then my Great Grandma. I don't get why would God place people in these situations were it's like the lap of luxury and another person their life just got worse and worse and worse until they just "rusted out" and just gave up. Suicide is a bad thing but I don't know if I blame my relative for doing it, honestly, given her circumstances. Why would God place people in these situations given he knows the end from the beginning and therefore everything in between, to me means he knew she would do herself in.

This is the best I can do on short notice, verse 48 being the key to this question.

 

Luke 12:41 ¶ Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

  42 And the Lord said, Who then is that ^afaithful and wise ^bsteward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

  43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so ^adoing.

  44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ^aruler over ^ball that he hath.

  45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and ^amaidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

  46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his ^aportion with the unbelievers.

  47 And that ^aservant, which knew his lord’s ^bwill, and ^cprepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

  48 But he that ^aknew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be ^bbeaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever ^cmuch is ^dgiven, of him shall bemuch ^erequired: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

[Duncan]

 

This is the best I can do on short notice, verse 48 being the key to this question.

 

Luke 12:41 ¶ Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

  42 And the Lord said, Who then is that ^afaithful and wise ^bsteward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

  43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so ^adoing.

  44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ^aruler over ^ball that he hath.

  45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and ^amaidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

  46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his ^aportion with the unbelievers.

  47 And that ^aservant, which knew his lord’s ^bwill, and ^cprepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

  48 But he that ^aknew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be ^bbeaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever ^cmuch is ^dgiven, of him shall bemuch ^erequired: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

 

that's true, thank you!!!! I was talking to my Mum earlier about her grandma, whom she never met either. I just can't believe the stuff she and others of that time had to do and suffer through. They lived a rough frontier life, building homes using wood they cut down, they ate what they shot or grew. No social safety nets, a whole whack of kids and as I say it's a wonder more people didn't just give in. I know Chaplin's Mum as well, just lost her mind and ended up in a home and just lost her wits about her trying to make a go of life, raising her two boys in Victorian England. The contrast's are amazing between their lives and the lives of folks today

[Tacenda]

My grandma had a rough life. When her mom died she was only eight and her dad couldn't take care of her. She was farmed out to different people, one family made her sleep out in some kind of out building on their property. She was treated like a slave. She was also born with a hairlip, and the doctor that operated on her did a terrible job and she had to live with the effects of that. She went on to marrying and having 7 children but sadly her husband was hit by a big truck while driving in a smaller truck and killed. He was only in his 50's. My grandma was a widow the rest of her life. She was known as the slipper lady. Everyone in town had a pair of her slippers. I still wear mine that she crocheted. I'd give anything to go back in time and sit at her feet and ask her what her life was like growing up.

But I know what you mean Duncan, it seems like God does let things happen. And people praying to find lost keys and then finding them right away irks me even though I've used prayer for this and it seems to work for me also. But the big things, nope he's not really all that helpful, but maybe he is without it being noticeable.

We don't know what's going on in those people's lives that apear to have it all. And FB is such a joke sometimes. I feel like my life pales compared to others on there. I'm trying to cut back on viewing it. But life does seem unfair at times. I hope those poor children in war torn countries do get paradise after this life.

[Duncan]

My grandma had a rough life. When her mom died she was only eight and her dad couldn't take care of her. She was farmed out to different people, one family made her sleep out in some kind of out building on their property. She was treated like a slave. She was also born with a hairlip, and the doctor that operated on her did a terrible job and she had to live with the effects of that. She went on to marrying and having 7 children but sadly her husband was hit by a big truck while driving in a smaller truck and killed. He was only in his 50's. My grandma was a widow the rest of her life. She was known as the slipper lady. Everyone in town had a pair of her slippers. I still wear mine that she crocheted. I'd give anything to go back in time and sit at her feet and ask her what her life was like growing up.

But I know what you mean Duncan, it seems like God does let things happen. And people praying to find lost keys and then finding them right away irks me even though I've used prayer for this and it seems to work for me also. But the big things, nope he's not really all that helpful, but maybe he is without it being noticeable.

We don't know what's going on in those people's lives that apear to have it all. And FB is such a joke sometimes. I feel like my life pales compared to others on there. I'm trying to cut back on viewing it. But life does seem unfair at times. I hope those poor children in war torn countries do get paradise after this life.

 

 

Thanks for that!!! and some people turn on God and disbelieve or hate or whatever and can't say that I blame them, honestly given their life. I just wonder if God is surprised by all this or does he want all this or what does he expect from them and how does he make that expectation known. In listening to some people in Church revelation is a maze to get through and you're confused and frustrated and end up in wrong places, apparently. To some it would appear he just lets people loose and live life however they do and how were they supposed to know and do different

[rodheadlee]

Well for a person to expect God, Heavenly Father, to help they actually have to pray for help. You must humble yourself , pray and ask for help. Sometimes the answer is no for reasons we are not aware of*. It is always beneficial to have a relationship with HF BEFORE you need the help.

 

* An example of this would be what happened to us while sailing the Pacific. We had been studying Ether daily while on a 24 day sail across thousands of miles of ocean with no land in sight. I very much wanted to be like the Brother of Jared and have great faith. Well while this was going on we had entered the ITCZ, an area of squalls a hundred or so miles wide. After having fun washing the boat and ourselves in the squalls they started to get serious and proved to be dangerous. We started dodging them by gauging whether to pass behind them or in front of them. We were doing well with some prayer and had dodged all the subsequent squalls. Then  a humongous squall approached, we knew we could not go behind it so we tried to pass in front of it. I was sure we were going to get plastered and I was praying mightily when all of a sudden the squall stopped it's advance and let us pass. It then continued it's previous speed and course and passed behind us. We were totally amazed and grateful. So far so good, right?

 

About a month later we were sailing from Bora Bora to Samoa and we kept crossing this hundred mile wide band of squalls I prayed mightily to the Lord again and nothing happened to stop the squalls nor move them off their course. There seemed to be no way out of the squalls. I prayed some more for the Lord to stop these squalls and the answer was "No! These things must needs be but you will arrive safely."  We did but barely, we broke our rig 220 miles out, we arrived after midnight and the whole anchorage (60 boats or so) was awake giving us GPS numbers to miss the reefs, talking us in on the radio and they had all lit up the harbor with their lights.  So we did arrive safe. It was some weeks later as i was sitting in the anchorage, watching these squalls burst upon Rainmaker Mountain, I realized that if the Lord had moved this band of squalls off of their course for me the Island would have had no water for the people that lived there. So it was impossible for Him to answer my prayer as requested.

 

PS. If you want to know what a squall is like in a sailboat see the movie " White Squall" warning, it's sad.

Edited May 19, 2015 by rodheadlee

[Calm]

http://www.mormonchannel.org/watch/series/mormon-messages/lift-the-power-of-service?cid=HP_WE_5-13-2015_dPTH_fMM_xLIDyL1-A_

We don't always see the worth of a life.

[Boanerges]

Well for a person to expect God, Heavenly Father, to help they actually have to pray for help. You must humble yourself , pray and ask for help. Sometimes the answer is no for reasons we are not aware of*. It is always beneficial to have a relationship with HF BEFORE you need the help.

 

So, for example, none of the 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust had this kind of relationship with God? Not one?

Edited May 19, 2015 by Boanerges

[rodheadlee]

So, for eample, none of the 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust had this kind of relationship with God? Not one?

The answer was no it must needs be. I guess you missed that part. Do you think Israel would be a country today without the Holocaust? Did God harden Hitler's heart as he did Pharaoh's?

Edited May 19, 2015 by rodheadlee

[Gray]

The answer was no it must needs be. I guess you missed that part. Do you think Israel would be a country today without the Holocaust? Did God harden Hitler's heart as he did Pharaoh's?

 

The worth of those six million lives is greater than the value of a political state for Israel 

[Boanerges]

The answer was no it must needs be. I guess you missed that part. Do you think Israel would be a country today without the Holocaust? Did God harden Hitler's heart as he did Pharaoh's?

It is possible Israel would be a country without the Holocaust, yes. WWII was not the only factor in that decision, but it did provide an opporunity.

 

I personally don't believe God hardens anybody's heart, I think people do that themselves (or perhaps Satan is involved in some cases).

 

I do believe the Holocaust (and a bazillion other things, like child abuse) happened because God let it happen - because God's prime directive is to never, ever interfere with our agency. I likewsie do not believe God causes any suffering, even though He may view it as for our good and benefit.

[Tacenda]

It is possible Israel would be a country without the Holocaust, yes. WWII was not the only factor in that decision, but it did provide an opporunity.

 

I personally don't believe God hardens anybody's heart, I think people do that themselves (or perhaps Satan is involved in some cases).

 

I do believe the Holocaust (and a bazillion other things, like child abuse) happened because God let it happen - because God's prime directive is to never, ever interfere with our agency. I likewsie do not believe God causes any suffering, even though He may view it as for our good and benefit.

Which begs the question of why do we pray for blessings or healings such as in the PH blessing?  I understand praying to thank Him.  Pray to feel His spirit.  But if he's handcuffed or can't interfere, what's the use of asking for things he is not going to provide.  False hope comes to mind.  I guess we are our answers or our healing or our new job etc.  

[Bobbieaware]

Which begs the question of why do we pray for blessings or healings such as in the PH blessing? I understand praying to thank Him. Pray to feel His spirit. But if he's handcuffed or can't interfere, what's the use of asking for things he is not going to provide. False hope comes to mind. I guess we are our answers or our healing or our new job etc.

Because the scriptures teach us we can never know if it's God's will whether we must pass through certain trials of faith or if there is a provided way of escape unless we first ask him to help us in our afflictions..

With his Father's help, the Savior escaped the murderous intentions of his enemies time and time again, until in the garden of Gethsemane he learned it was God's will that he pass through untold sorrow. During his agony in the garden, the Savior repeatedly pled with the Father to provide him a means of escape. Finally, in answer to the Savior's most earnest prayers, the Father sent an angel to reveal to him that there was no possible way of escape from his agony if he sought to remain faithful and true to the Father's will. And then, with strengthening words of encouragement, the angel revealed to the Savior that it it was God's will he drink to the dregs of the bitter cup of the wrath of God that we might be saved.

In our trials, there will be times of divinely-ordained escape and instances when we will be called upon endure "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune." But by asking God for his aid, whether to help us escape our trials or to spiritually strengthen us that we might faithfully endure them, we can eventually come to learn God's will. If we never ask for his help, either to escape or endure, we will be left groping in the dark with no answers.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Duncan]

Because the scriptures teach us we can never know if it's God's will whether we must pass through certain trials of faith or if there is a provided way of escape unless we first ask him to help us in our afflictions..

With his Father's help, the Savior escaped the murderous intentions of his enemies time and time again, until in the garden of Gethsemane he learned it was God's will that he pass through untold sorrow. During his agony in the garden, the Savior repeatedly pled with the Father to provide him a means of escape. Finally, in answer to the Savio's most earnest prayers, the Father sent an angel to reveal to him that there was no possible way of escape from his agony if he sought to remain faithful and true to the Father's will. And then, with strengthening words of encouragement, the angel revealed to the Savior that it it was God's will he drink to the dregs of the bitter cup of the wrath of God that we might be saved.

In our trials, there will be times of divinely-ordained escape and instances when we will be called upon endure "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune." But by asking God for his aid, whether to help us escape our trials or to spiritually strengthen us that we might faithfully endure them, we can eventually come to learn God's will. If we never ask for his help, either to escape or endure, we will be left groping in the dark with no answers.

 

and who knows if people even know to ask God for help, that I don't know in my relative's help and as I say I don't know what help came from God or why she just quit and gave up. Every year thousands of people kill themselves and we seem to know what we don't know than what we do know, like who knows what goes on in people's minds

[CV75]

God's prime directive is to never, ever interfere with our agency. I likewsie do not believe God causes any suffering, even though He may view it as for our good and benefit.

I do think however, that everything He does is to facilitate and advance our agency. That may include answering prayers, but as we see it often does not. We are encouraged to pray that His will be done, so whatever He does or doesn't do, it won't be against His will and it won't work against the expansion of our agency.