The Different Lives We Live

[JLHPROF]

Considering this is the worst part of eternity and vital to eternal destiny I see this life as inherently valuable. I am just not sure if I value its longevity that much.

 

Well, worst for most.  I think for a few less righteous this might be their peak of happiness.

[strappinglad]

At times I think about the war in heaven. Just what was it that convinced so many spirits to want Satan's plan to be the one followed on earth? There are many here who seem to want 'God ' to be a certain way . They set up a straw-man God who , if He truly were a god, would not do or allow X to happen. And when it happens then obviously , there is no God. Why does God allow the lion to kill the wildebeest? Why does God allow the wildebeest to eat innocent plants? Where will it all end ? Why are humans so destructive and self-destructive? How dare God create a parasite!

 

   Personally, I see God in the lion, and the wildebeest and the plant and the parasite, and the cosmos. I understand a bit about the laws of probability. When I see the complex machinery in a cell and the vast information storage of DNA , I see evidence of a supreme intelligence at work. Random, shmandom !!!

[The Nehor]

Well, worst for most.  I think for a few less righteous this might be their peak of happiness.

 

I expect they and we were happier in premortality. I do sometimes wonder if the miserable in the next life are only miserable from an outside standpoint. I suspect that those in Outer Darkness might even be convinced they won and were successful rebels to the end. Not sure though. Everyone else will be happier then they are here after they get out of hell.

[rodheadlee]

The worth of those six million lives is greater than the value of a political state for Israel 

Thank you captain obvious. The point is that catastrophes hasten judgement and good can come from them.

[rodheadlee]

Which begs the question of why do we pray for blessings or healings such as in the PH blessing?  I understand praying to thank Him.  Pray to feel His spirit.  But if he's handcuffed or can't interfere, what's the use of asking for things he is not going to provide.  False hope comes to mind.  I guess we are our answers or our healing or our new job etc.  

43 And whosoever among you are ^asick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be ^bnourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild ^cfood, and that not by the hand of an enemy.

  44 And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and ^alay their ^bhands upon them in my name; and if they ^cdie they shall ^ddieunto me, and if they live they shall live unto me.

  45 Thou shalt ^alive together in ^blove, insomuch that thou shalt ^cweep for the loss of them that die, and more especially for those that have not ^dhope of a glorious resurrection.

  46 And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not ^ataste of ^bdeath, for it shall be ^csweet unto them;

  47 And they that die not in me, wo unto them, for their death is bitter.

  48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath ^afaith in me to be ^bhealed, and is not ^cappointed unto death, shall be ^dhealed.

  49 He who hath faith to see shall see.

  50 He who hath faith to hear shall hear.

  51 The lame who hath faith to leap shall leap.

  52 And they who have not faith to do these things, but believe in me, have ^apower to become my ^bsons; and inasmuch as they break not my laws thou shalt^cbear their infirmities.

 

[Tacenda]

43 And whosoever among you are ^asick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be ^bnourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild ^cfood, and that not by the hand of an enemy.

  44 And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and ^alay their ^bhands upon them in my name; and if they ^cdie they shall ^ddieunto me, and if they live they shall live unto me.

  45 Thou shalt ^alive together in ^blove, insomuch that thou shalt ^cweep for the loss of them that die, and more especially for those that have not ^dhope of a glorious resurrection.

  46 And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not ^ataste of ^bdeath, for it shall be ^csweet unto them;

  47 And they that die not in me, wo unto them, for their death is bitter.

  48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath ^afaith in me to be ^bhealed, and is not ^cappointed unto death, shall be ^dhealed.

  49 He who hath faith to see shall see.

  50 He who hath faith to hear shall hear.

  51 The lame who hath faith to leap shall leap.

  52 And they who have not faith to do these things, but believe in me, have ^apower to become my ^bsons; and inasmuch as they break not my laws thou shalt^cbear their infirmities.

CFR, scripture reference that is. Yes, I know, I should know this.

[PeterPear]

Good discussion.

 

Job is an example. 

&

Korihor is a good example:

 

 17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength...

 

Then he challenged the existence of GOD and was struck deaf and dumb:

 

and this put an end to the iniquity after the manner of Korihor. And Korihor did go about from house to house, begging food for his support.

 59 And it came to pass that as he went forth among the people, yea, among a people who had separated themselves from the Nephites and called themselves Zoramites, being led by a man whose name was Zoram—and as he went forth amongst them, behold, he was run upon and trodden down, even until he was dead.

So much for the Theory of Evolution and the Survival of the Fittest: aka Charles Darwin Korihor.

 

My point being, you need to be obedient to the Commandments of God no matter your situation in life - whether you're weak, strong, poor, rich.

[Bobbieaware]

I figured out what "seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive, knock, and it shall be opened unto you meant" when I started seeking, asking, and finding. As soon as I began asking seriously, I began finding, and it was members of the church who were doing the eager, willing sharing. It has been obvious to me that the church contains all kinds of people. Even bureaucrats, and people whose ideals and faith took them into CES and produced manuals and books, doing the best they could according their lights and resources. I even found lots of good stuff in some of the manuals. A member in England loaned me Nibley's An Approach to the Book of Mormon. That experience snowballed from him into the rest of my life. On one side, I basically accepted what I was given, and on the other, I eagerly sought on my own initiative. I found that the best informed members of the church have always been eager to share with other seekers. And those who charge "spin" and "censorship" and all have never ever told me the whole story, and they have their own controlling ideologies.

Evidence for God? N. R. Hanson famously observed that "All data is theory laden." When I read Bertrand Russell's Why I Am Not a Christian, and Freud's The Future of an Illusion, I realized that works for skeptics too. I found my Mormon wine bottles wonderfully expansive and stronger than I imagined. The God they didn't believe in was not the same as the God I did believe in. I see wonderfully inviting evidence for God, a wide range, and often powerful, surprising, and not easily transferrable. I've written a lot about much of what impresses me over the years. I noticed that I could list lots of things that Riskas never addressed in his attempted Deconstruction of Mormonism. Ian Barbour's Myths, Models, and Paradigms, I found, is a much better book.

I'm currently working on a response to Jeremy Runnells' friend Johnny Stephenson, who claims that all we have to offer is spin. And he, of course, is immune to all of that, bravely facing the hard, facts. The most damaging ideologies are the ones you don't notice, the ones that convince you that you see things as they really are, and therefore, place you beyond the reach of enlightenment.

Bad stuff happens. My Dad had nightmares about his WWII experiences up to the end of his long life. One night in 1978 on Redwood Road and North Temple, I had a .22 pistol alternately grinding under my eye and against the back of my head. "Open the cash box," the young man said. "I would if I could," I replied. "I don't have the combination." On the third iteration of that conversation, with the occasional flying fist punctuating the situation, I thought... "This can't go on much longer..." Was I ready to die? Ready or not... we used to say, here I come. And at 3 a.m. two cars came in.

So... what do you think? Did God save me? And for what? And what about the ones God didn't save? My Dad had his life saved by spiritual promptings many times. But of course, he saw many terrible things. The thing is, there is more than one way to view such things, and not all of them require us to imagine that when an innocent child is taken from her home, raped, and left in an irrigation ditch down the street from my sister-in-law's house in West Jordan, that the whole meaning of that child's existence stays locked in that moment for eternity. With an after-life, the story continues. With an afterlife, when those parents pass on, I find it both easy and comforting to believe that they will be greeted by that child. How well will cynicism and bitterness weather the joy in that scenario?

That moment of my life at gunpoint was dramatic for a moment, but it is far from the most unpleasant experience I have endured. But it also turns out that some of the most amazing and powerful and faith promoting experiences of my life have come as a direct consequence of my enduring the worst moments, hours, days, months. I don't see that as random.

Well, some people explain it away as delusion and spin, but in doing so, they always demonstrate their own ideology and spin.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

For me, the mere fact that there is an existence is the greatest evidence there is a God. Somehow I just intuitively know there could only be nothingness, the absence of existence, unless there is a God and a very good ultimate reason for things to exist. Lehi in 2 Nepho 2 agrees with me. Lehi says unless there is a God, nothing at all would exist; and if it were somehow possible for God to cease to exist, then everyone and everything else would cease to exist with along him. But Lehi was only speaking theoretically because this could never happen for God always has and always will exist, worlds without end.

For others, the fact that there is an existence provides no meaningful evidence at all that God exists. Nevertheless, I just somehow know for a surety they are in error, that it's impossible that anything at all could exist without God and without there being an opposition in all things. This acute awareness that nothing can exist without God is a spiritual gift, I suppose -- a gift for which I'm eternally grateful. Somehow I just intuitively know it's true. And I know this knowledge is not a figment of my imagination. I know it's very real, as real as existence itself.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[rodheadlee]

CFR, scripture reference that is. Yes, I know, I should know this.

I'm sorry It was D&C 42, I should have posted it.

[Gray]

That has nurtured many more millions.

 

 

So have other countries.

 

 

Thank you captain obvious. The point is that catastrophes hasten judgement and good can come from them.

 

 

It seems ghoulish to think anything could justify the Holocaust. The creation of Israel is a poor consolation compared to the value of the lives lost.  The ability to "hasten judgement" is an even worse consolation. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Gray

[rodheadlee]

So have other countries.

 

 

 

 

It seems ghoulish to think anything could justify the Holocaust. The creation of Israel is a poor consolation compared to the value of the lives lost.  The ability to "hasten judgement" is an even worse consolation. 

Maybe i should make myself more clear, NOTHING can justify the Holocaust. God will let Evil run it's course to the condemnation of those whom are evil. During disasters like earthquakes, tsunamis etc judgement is hastened in that those whom are evil will do evil such as looting, those whom are valiant in the Lord will share their food, risk their lives to rescue others. It's not a difficult principle to grasp but perhaps my communication of it is lacking. 

[Gray]

Maybe i should make myself more clear, NOTHING can justify the Holocaust. God will let Evil run it's course to the condemnation of those whom are evil. During disasters like earthquakes, tsunamis etc judgement is hastened in that those whom are evil will do evil such as looting, those whom are valiant in the Lord will share their food, risk their lives to rescue others. It's not a difficult principle to grasp but perhaps my communication of it is lacking. 

 

Thanks for clarifying!