How Would You Revise The Canon?

[Damien the Leper]

I would revise the order of the NT putting Peter, James, John, and Jude's epistles before Paul's letters, giving them more weight and emphasis, I would also reorder the Gospels to: John, Mark, Luke, and Matthew for similar reasons.

If I was particularly LDS I would seek permission to use the Inspired Version and make that the standard Bible used, instead of the KJV.

I would totally reformat everything making the scriptures closer to the "Study Edition" Bibles put out by Christians, with photos, charts, notes, definitions, quotes, etc. embedded within the text.

Edit: And I would definitely put the Lectures on Faith back into their rightful place at the beginning of the D&C.

I'd like to see the RCE BoM used.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I'd like to see the RCE BoM used.

 

Supposedly, the group with the rights to it now are working on turning it into a study edition. I will have to ask how it is coming, they are small and don't have much $$ to put behind it to speed up the process.

[theplains]

What texts would you add? (The Family: a proclamation to the world, The Lectures on Faith, anything by C. S. Lewis )

 

I would add the Lectures on Faith back and use the original name "Book of Commandments".

Another thing would be to remove all the copied chapters of the Bible that exist in the Book of

Mormon. I think the Book of Mormon can stand on its own.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Freedom]

I would change nothing and spend my time reading what is there rather than trying to decide what should or shouldn't be there. I trust Gods wisdom in presenting it the way it is. 

[Sleeper Cell]

Community of Christ is doing quite well. They are gaining more and more LDS converts via their Seekers groups/congregations. The Seekers congregation on SLC continues to grow. Their Enduring Principles promote the "Christ's Mission; Our Mission" mindset.

 

I do not doubt that some CoC congregations are growing, but everything I recall reading indicates that overall, they have been losing membership (at least in the US).  If the CoC has released membership numbers to the contrary, I would be happy to accept their word for it.  Indeed, if you have recent membership numbers from a source you consider reliable, I would be willing to take your word for it.  According to their official website, their donations have been declining over the last several years, resulting in reduced budgets and staff cutbacks.  If this were true of the LDS church, not a few posters on this board would cite it as strong evidence of real membership decline.   

 

I realize that ultimately the success of a church is a function of changed lives in this world and salvation in the next -- not membership numbers and the financial balance sheet.  And in that sense, who am I to pass judgment on the good work of others? However, if declining membership growth is evidence that the LDS church is declining, shouldn’t actual net membership loss (if, in fact, this is occurring) be evidence that the CoC is declining?  And if the decline in LDS growth is attributed to LDS stands on gay marriage and women’s ordination, why would it not be fair to attribute any CoC membership losses to their stands on these same issues? 

[Sevenbak]

I would add the Lectures on Faith back and use the original name "Book of Commandments".

Another thing would be to remove all the copied chapters of the Bible that exist in the Book of

Mormon. I think the Book of Mormon can stand on its own.

 

Regards,

Jim

I love the fact that there is duplicity, and even some change from the bible version.  Great are the words of Isaiah, as Christ Himself stated to the Nephites.    I think it's more than a simple law of witnesses thing too, we really should study fore fervently those we've been given double doses of.

[Kaleb Webb]

I would keep the Song of Solomon.

I would add the first epistle of Clement, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, the Letters of Ignatius, the Martyrdom of Polycarp, the Epistle of Polycarp, 1 Enoch, and the Apocrypha.

I would also add the King Follett Discourse, the Sermon in the Grove, and the uncanonized revelations of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff. I would keep Joseph Smith-History but add Joseph's other First Vision Accounts to it. I would drop the Articles of Faith and D&C sections calling specific people on missions. I would not add the Family Proclamation or the Living Christ. 

[DonBradley]

I would drop Jude, the Johannine letters, 2 Peter and Revelation. I would imclude The Shepherd of Hermas, Apocalypse of Peter and Gospels of Judas, Mary Magdalene and Thomas. I would also include the Sophia of Jesus Christ and The First Thought in Three Forms.

I would drop 2 Nephi and Alma.

I would drop Section. 132 and include Sections 161-164.

 

Valentinus,

 

Your answer is so interesting, I hope you'll expound.

 

Quite seriously.

 

Don

[DonBradley]

 

I do not doubt that some CoC congregations are growing, but everything I recall reading indicates that overall, they have been losing membership (at least in the US).  If the CoC has released membership numbers to the contrary, I would be happy to accept their word for it.  Indeed, if you have recent membership numbers from a source you consider reliable, I would be willing to take your word for it.  According to their official website, their donations have been declining over the last several years, resulting in reduced budgets and staff cutbacks.  If this were true of the LDS church, not a few posters on this board would cite it as strong evidence of real membership decline.   

 

I realize that ultimately the success of a church is a function of changed lives in this world and salvation in the next -- not membership numbers and the financial balance sheet.  And in that sense, who am I to pass judgment on the good work of others? However, if declining membership growth is evidence that the LDS church is declining, shouldn’t actual net membership loss (if, in fact, this is occurring) be evidence that the CoC is declining?  And if the decline in LDS growth is attributed to LDS stands on gay marriage and women’s ordination, why would it not be fair to attribute any CoC membership losses to their stands on these same issues? 

 

 

Sleeper,

 

I somewhat agree. But having seen the Latter Day Seekers program up close, I actually think such new programs bode very well for the CoC. It's quite possible for it to turn around its membership stagnation or decline, just like it's quite possible for the LDS church to start retaining more members and growing more quickly. I think the CoC may be rounding an important corner.

 

Don

[DonBradley]

I'd add more excerpts from Joseph Smith sermons, like D&C 130 and 131.

[longview]

I love the fact that there is duplicity, and even some change from the bible version.  Great are the words of Isaiah, as Christ Himself stated to the Nephites.    I think it's more than a simple law of witnesses thing too, we really should study fore fervently those we've been given double doses of.

Agreed.

 

Also, I like the comments and interpretations on the Isaiah passages by BoM prophets.  And we should take special note of Jesus' recitation of different Isaiah prophecies in one stream of thought in 3 Nephi.

[Damien the Leper]

Supposedly, the group with the rights to it now are working on turning it into a study edition. I will have to ask how it is coming, they are small and don't have much $$ to put behind it to speed up the process.

Are they Restorationists?

[Coreyb]

Well, I suppose I would start by saying that there are universal and particular passages to be found in any book of scripture. The universal passages seem to point to a universal morality - unconditional love, oneness, forgiveness, humility and so forth. There are also passages that are particular, seeming to either apply to only a particular people or even representing modes of thinking now recognized as harmful or immoral. We can find examples in any book of scripture - people hostile to religious faith tend to quote them all the time. I think we can learn from these particulars in the same way we learn from our own mistakes. 

 

I don't assume that any scripture is a historically-accurate narrative. When I read scripture I'm looking for larger themes and lessons, including lessons that may not have been intended by the authors (which I think is also true of how Christians tend to read the Old Testament).  I think literalism misses the point of scripture. The story often eclipses the deeper meaning that can be taken from the story. Too much focus on the vehicle, not enough on the destinations that are possible. 

 

I don't assume that any scripture represents literal words from Gods, but rather as the human attempt at reaching out toward divinity. True principles are not directly revealed. We awaken to them, we discover them, and sometimes we forget about them. 

 

No one would hold a position if they didn't think it was superior to competing positions. I wouldn't hold my own positions if I didn't think they were a more useful approach than fundamentalism. But at the same time the universal truths that I see in scriptures are present in every other religion. Even if the approach is different than mine, and even if I don't like all of their particulars, all of them still have some of the universals that I value. And who is to say that fundamentalism isn't situationally better than my own perspective. I only know what works for me. 

 

I'll stop there before the term "new age" gets used again.

In all honestly, how is this approach any different than the proof texting that goes on in more conservative scripture circles, you are just proof texting for a different set of dogmas. Sure you can read the book of Job and pick some verses that sound real pretty about love or oneness, just like I could pick a few verses from the book and say they are talking about Jesus, but really we are both wrong and then we miss what the book is actually saying. This is what the curriculum department already does. They choose values beforehand and then read them back into whoever's sermons, letters or diaries they want. If this is our approach, we might as well canonize all nice literature, or have no canon, with the same result.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Are they Restorationists?

Yes, I had forgotten that they merged with the Book of Mormon Foundation last year. So the Book of Mormon Foundation, I believe, now has the copyright to the RCE. I don't know what the new plans might be for it now. I will have to try and find out.

[Gray]

In all honestly, how is this approach any different than the proof texting that goes on in more conservative scripture circles, you are just proof texting for a different set of dogmas. Sure you can read the book of Job and pick some verses that sound real pretty about love or oneness, just like I could pick a few verses from the book and say they are talking about Jesus, but really we are both wrong and then we miss what the book is actually saying. This is what the curriculum department already does. They choose values beforehand and then read them back into whoever's sermons, letters or diaries they want. If this is our approach, we might as well canonize all nice literature, or have no canon, with the same result.

 

From a spiritual perspective, I don't think it's important to stick to what the book is actually saying. I don't feel obligated to agree with every single person who contributed to the Bible over the years. That would be an impediment to my own spiritual growth.

 

I do feel it's important to understand historical context and intended meaning, from an academic perspective. That's a good solid foundation to have. It's important to understand, for instance, that there is very likely little historicity throughout most of the Bible. It's good to attempt to understand the competing agendas of the human beings who wrote it.

 

But meaning (spiritual meaning) is always partially created when you're using a book as a spiritual text. The text is a jumping off point. Spiritual lessons don't really live at the surface level of any story. That doesn't mean I'm going to say that Job is really all about Jesus of Nazareth. What it does mean is I'm going to try to apply spiritual lessons to the story that can help me be a more complete human being. 

 

So there are different approaches to scripture, depending on what you're trying to get out of it. 

[Alan]

Joining this thread late as usual.

 

Firstly, regarding the CofC. They are in free fall and have been for some time. Here in the UK they are really struggling. In the past couple of years congregations have been discontinued and buildings have been closed and sold off. I had the British Isles mission centre president (equivalent of LDS European Area President) sit in my house and acknowledge the church is "dying on it's feet".

 

Anyway, regarding scripture removals or additions. The King Follett discourse is a no for me. Apart from the theology, we don't even have the discourse, just some notes pieced together after the fact. That cannot qualify as scripture.

 

Personally, I would remove most of Paul's letters from the NT. I would also remove D&C132 and replace it with the original D&C monogamy section (111 I think). I would certainly remove D&C 138 as this cannot be considered revelation to the church in my view. 

I would remove the repetitive personal sections too.

 

JS history would be removed from it's scriptural status, and inserted into an appendix.

 

The war chapters in the BoM have little spiritual value for me, so they would be removed.

 

Finally, I would discontinue use of the KJV in favour of something like the NIV, and produce a revision of the BoM with all of the thee's, thou's, th's, etc removed and replaced with modern language.

 

Don't know what I'd do after lunch.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Alan

[Sevenbak]

The war chapters in the BoM have little spiritual value for me, so they would be removed.

There's more to the war chapters than meets the eye. The book of Mormon was written for us. It is both a witness and a warning, not just meant for spiritual value.  Mormon compressed down a lot of stuff and didn't give us useless drivel that we didn't need for our day. He gave us what we needed.  Sometimes I wonder why things are there, but I know there's a reason, just might not be for our generation.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Sevenbak

[carbon dioxide]

 

Finally, I would discontinue use of the KJV in favour of something like the NIV, and produce a revision of the BoM with all of the thee's, thou's, th's, etc removed and replaced with modern language.

I don't like the NIV.  A redneck version or a ghetto version would be better.  I probably would remove 3 of the 4 gospels.  Maybe just keep the Gospel of Mark if for no other reason my older brother name is Mark.  Most of the Old Testament can't be verified anyway.  So perhaps remove at least 2/3 of it. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Sevenbak]

Well hey as long as we're at it let's just chuck all the scriptures. A living prophet trumps the dead ones anyway.

What could possibly go wrong???

[JLHPROF]

Well hey as long as we're at it let's just chuck all the scriptures. A living prophet trumps the dead ones anyway.

What could possibly go wrong???

 

That's why I'm much more interested in adding than removing.  There is so much revelation that should be in the canon, and so very little that should be removed.

[carbon dioxide]

That's why I'm much more interested in adding than removing.  There is so much revelation that should be in the canon, and so very little that should be removed.

People want parts that make them feel uncomfortable removed.  I believe if Satan was to draw up the canon, he would only include those things that make everyone happy.  When every is happy and comfortable, he has them exactly where he wants them. 

[stemelbow]

People want parts that make them feel uncomfortable removed.  I believe if Satan was to draw up the canon, he would only include those things that make everyone happy.  When every is happy and comfortable, he has them exactly where he wants them.

Interesting the focus of the Church, it seems to me, is to say we are happy, everything we do, as it pertains to living the gospel makes us happy.

Of course, I don't know how true that is, since it seems, Mormons are no more happy than anyone else, but it is an interesting thought, I'd say, in light of what you said.

[Gray]

People want parts that make them feel uncomfortable removed.  I believe if Satan was to draw up the canon, he would only include those things that make everyone happy.  When every is happy and comfortable, he has them exactly where he wants them. 

 

And the corollary would be that God wants us miserable and uncomfortable? 

[JLHPROF]

Interesting the focus of the Church, it seems to me, is to say we are happy, everything we do, as it pertains to living the gospel makes us happy.

Of course, I don't know how true that is, since it seems, Mormons are no more happy than anyone else, but it is an interesting thought, I'd say, in light of what you said.

 

I don't believe that.  The entire premise of that teaching is based on "men are that they might have joy".  Nowhere does that say all the time, in all cases, in this life.  Adam fell that men might be.  Men are that they might have joy.  That could just as easily refer to the resurrection.  Just as Joseph's teaching that "Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof" is as likely referring to the next life too.

 

I don't know of any teaching that states this life is supposed to make us happy all the time.  Joseph wasn't happy in Liberty Jail.  The Pioneers weren't happy crossing the plains starving and dying.  The Savior wasn't happy in Gethsemane.  The Saints weren't happy hiding on the underground and not seeing their families.

 

Those who want a religion that "makes them happy all the time" by removing things that make them uncomfortable are operating under a false idea.

[carbon dioxide]

And the corollary would be that God wants us miserable and uncomfortable? 

God wants us happy but not comfortable.  When people are comfortable, they get lazy and when enough time passes, we begin to forgot to pray, read the scriptures, ect.  Perhaps for eternity that is true but this world.