What Is Destroying America? The Importance Of Traditional Marriage.

[Mormonmaniac]

All my children are grown with families of their own. So when I moved my aged, and declining in health, mother in with us. We suddenly became an unacceptable nontraditional family?

You miss the point entirely!

[danielwoods]

And I don't see any of that changing just because gay marriage becomes legal do you??

Oh, I do. As I said, gay marriage is a symptom of our times, so is the pressure to reduce or eliminate the benefits for families.

 

If you are going to make this kind of statement, you are going to have to back it up.  For the millionth time, you nor anyone else will be forced to change your point of view one iota.  You should really drop this claim unless you can actually back it up with something real.  No one is buying it because you have no facts to back it up.  There is no law on the horizon that is going to force anyone to change their religious beliefs.

Says you. In the beginning there was no reason to fear this gay marriage thing, it won't affect you, it's only .3 percent of the population, they said. Until that is they want you to make a cake or take photos that violate your conscience. And notice they only go to christian folks.

Next will be preaching from the bible (reference the Houston, TX mayor), "please send me your sermon texts..." No more telling people that gays are immoral. Nah, that wouldn't ever happen right?

 

And these have been identified as the greatest threat to traditional families.  Yet again, gay marriage does not and can not contribute to any of these problems.

Like I said, I agree with you. Gay marriage is only a symptom. Traditional families have been proven time and again to be the ideal for kids and our country.

[Robert F. Smith]

I do not think the world is losing its soul. In many ways the world is better than it has ever been.  Sure there are huge problems, wars, evil things going on and so on.  On the other hand more of the world is fed, has water, is seeing their economic situation increase, their life spans increase, etc.

 

The world has always been in turmoil. It is sad because if we could cast off the things that cause us to hate, to abuse, to take advantage of and exploit others, if the leaders of many nations would work for the benefit of the people and cast off kleptocracy I believe we could feed the world and everyone could living. I believe we have the resources and technology to do this.

 

I am sure the religious folks will say "See you are making our point!  We are so evil that even in a day of abundance we let thousands of children starve every day."  And that is true. 

 

Maybe the end is nigh.  If Jesus really is coming again I  hope he hurries really.  But on the other hand I think over all the world is better off than it ever has been, in many ways.  Still has a long way to go.

Teancum, you are certainly a fine exponent for the power of positive thinking -- at least in this matter -- and I would certainly love to believe that everything is getting better and better every day in every way.  However, there is not a shred of evidence to support your pollyanish notions.

 

Not only are we faced with a daunting list of debacles coming at us like a fast freight train for the rest of this century, but recent history shows us without doubt that our fairy faith in the good of humankind is vastly misplaced.  Would that it were not so.

 

Today there are many more slaves and human trafficking than at any time in history, many more refugees on the move or dying than ever, many more wars being fought with far more sophisticated and deadly weapons than ever.  Global warming and climate change threaten whole regions with vast displacements of population, rising oceans, increased drought and famine, and consequent political and military havoc on a truly Malthusian scale.

[Robert F. Smith]

The breakdown of the husband and wife traditional relationship is one of the main factors in the rise of homosexuality and SSA. That traditional marriage breakdown is also the cause of a lot of other sinful sexual activity and drug abuse, crime, etc.That is my belief.

That is truly monomaniacal hogwash.

[Robert F. Smith]

1. The point is that the greatest benefit to society and the government in particular, are strong families with strong morals. How do we support, as a governmental system, these strong families? Supporting traditional marriage. That's how. 

 

2. If only .3 percent of the population are married gay people, then one would think it would be a non-issue. The reason it's has become a large issue, is because it's not just about marriage, it's about forcing religious people to violate what they believe to be true. 

 

3. The elephant in the room that no one talks about is where will it end? 

 

If one says that we can't limit the definition of marriage to traditional marriage, then where does it stop? If one man and one man is a marriage, whose to say 40 men and 40 men isn't a marriage? Or any other combination one can think of. When one can simply erase traditional definitions, then imagine how quickly non-traditional definitions will be erased by the next couple generations.

 

One man one woman. 

 

 

Great. Their living their life has little to no effect on us, until they force people to agree with them their view of what is moral. Like I said, the gay marriage issue isn't about gay marriage. 

The problem with the totalitarian right has always been that they (just like Satan) want to force people to be righteous.  They don't like free agency, and cannot abide the Bill of Rights of the U. S. Constitution.

 

So, they allow paranoia to dictate their decisions, outlawing anything which challenges their apriori ideological views.  The issue now before us about same sex marriage is the very same Constitutional question faced by America in the late nineteenth century with the persecution of the Mormons for polygyny.  The hypocrisy on this matter currently is astonishing.

[Robert F. Smith]

...........................................................................   

 

"I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. (See D&C 1:14–16; D&C 84:49–53.) It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (See Ether 8:18–25.)

.............................................................  .  

I like President Benson's words here, but my question would be -- What are the names and types of specific organizations which currently embody these secret combinations?  In America and worldwide?

 

My fear is that you have no idea how to identify those threatening groups.  Indeed, by sounding an uncertain trumpet, I believe that misidentification is an even bigger threat than being unaware of them at all.

 

What I see around me are groups of angry people anxious to hang somebody, and they really don't care who they hang . . .

[Robert F. Smith]

Gay marriage has about as much chance of destroying America as the critics do of destroying the church.

Finally, some sanity.

[california boy]

Oh, I do. As I said, gay marriage is a symptom of our times, so is the pressure to reduce or eliminate the benefits for families.

 

Says you. In the beginning there was no reason to fear this gay marriage thing, it won't affect you, it's only .3 percent of the population, they said. Until that is they want you to make a cake or take photos that violate your conscience. And notice they only go to christian folks.

Next will be preaching from the bible (reference the Houston, TX mayor), "please send me your sermon texts..." No more telling people that gays are immoral. Nah, that wouldn't ever happen right?

 

Like I said, I agree with you. Gay marriage is only a symptom. Traditional families have been proven time and again to be the ideal for kids and our country.

 

The question of this thread is, "

What Is Destroying America? The Importance Of Traditional Marriage." 

The article that was used as a reference identifies these issues as the results of the breakdown of the family

 

 

• One-third of children are rejected before birth in abortion;
• One-third are born to an unmarried mother without a father who is committed to taking care of them.
• One-half of those who are born to married parents will see their parents reject each other before they reach age 18.

I have pointed out that NONE of those issues are the least bit related to whether gay couples marry or not.  I have also pointed out that it is virtually impossible for gay marriages to add to any of those problems since they are unable to become pregnant.

 

I have also pointed out that gay married couples represent only .3% of the total population, making those relationships statistically virtually insignificant.  These are all facts that you have not been able to challenge.  You can not show any facts that show even in the slightest how gay marriages do ANYTHING to threaten the traditional family.  The reason for this is quite obvious.  Gay marriage does nothing to effect traditional families.  This is all very clear and according to your answers are indisputable with any facts whatsoever.

 

You have only been able to continue to state that gay marriage does indeed threaten traditional families.  Yet you have only been able to offer your opinion and throw in some fear mongering on the side.

 

This is exactly why the right thing to do is to allow gay couples to marry.  This is why gay marriage does nothing to harm traditional families.  There are no facts to support your claim.  After gay marriage is ruled on by the Supreme Court, all of the threats to traditional families will still be there, but none of that threat will come from the Supreme Court ruling that will legalize gay marriage.  Now unless you can offer some substance, any substance to your completely unfounded claim that gay marriage threatens traditional families other than your own personal belief and a little fear mongering thrown in, then this issue is settled.  You got nothin.

Edited April 15, 2015 by california boy

[rodheadlee]

Caliboy you're not getting it. SSA is a symptom not a cause. SSA is a direct result of the peace, love, dope era of the 60s. It's no accident that the Gay Bay (San Francisco) used to be the home/ birthplace of the hippies.

 

[sethpayne]

Caliboy you're not getting it. SSA is a symptom not a cause. SSA is a direct result of the peace, love, dope era of the 60s. 

 

Well, somebody needs to alert Athenian Greeks circa 600 B.C.  

[danielwoods]

The problem with the totalitarian right has always been that they (just like Satan) want to force people to be righteous.  They don't like free agency, and cannot abide the Bill of Rights of the U. S. Constitution.

 

So, they allow paranoia to dictate their decisions, outlawing anything which challenges their apriori ideological views.  The issue now before us about same sex marriage is the very same Constitutional question faced by America in the late nineteenth century with the persecution of the Mormons for polygyny.  The hypocrisy on this matter currently is astonishing.

 

Free agency and the freedom to pursue life, liberty doesn't mean one group should be able to force another to violate their conscience. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by danielwoods

[thesometimesaint]

The sole purpose of government is to force you to obey the law regardless of your conscience.

 

It's not a big leap from pharmacists to firefighters. Millegdeville, Georgia, where Brittany Cartrett had a miscarriage. She needed assistance passing the miscarried fetus, so her doctor prescribed her Misoprostol, a pill that would help her complete what had started naturally, if sadly. When her doctor called local Walmart to have it filled, the pharmacist on duty refused to do so because, as she later told Cartrett, "I couldn't think of a valid reason why you would need this prescription." Misoprostol can be used to induce abortion, which is why it would be effective after a miscarriage. When Cartrett explained why she needed it, the pharmacist said, "Well, I don't feel like there is a reason why you would need it, so we refused to fill it."

And it's perfectly fine because Georgia has a law that says if pharmacists think that someone's prescription violates their beliefs, they can refuse to fill it because of a conscience clause, which over 20 states have or are considering. In this case, that meant that, despite a doctor calling in the prescription, the pharmacist thought, "Abortin' babeez" and bugged out.

By the way, Brittany Cartrett is a devout Christian who once worked at the same Walmart. And her response to the ensuing controversy, which became known because of her Facebook post on it, is about as common sense as you can get: "The point is that she refused to fill it based on an assumption and that is not her job. Her job is to fill it. Not to make the decision as to why I needed it. There has to be a line drawn when it comes to stuff like this."

[Brian 2.0]

Caliboy you're not getting it. SSA is a symptom not a cause. SSA is a direct result of the peace, love, dope era of the 60s. It's no accident that the Gay Bay (San Francisco) used to be the home/ birthplace of the hippies.

If someone wants to make the argument that homosexual activity had increased due to breakdown of the family, I could probably see that there might be some evidence out there... Though none has been presented in this thread.

If someone wants to make the argument that SSA has increased due to the breakdown of the family, as at least a couple people have claimed, then please cite something, because as Robert had said... that sounds like "hogwash."

[teddyaware]

I like President Benson's words here, but my question would be -- What are the names and types of specific organizations which currently embody these secret combinations?  In America and worldwide?

 

My fear is that you have no idea how to identify those threatening groups.  Indeed, by sounding an uncertain trumpet, I believe that misidentification is an even bigger threat than being unaware of them at all.

 

What I see around me are groups of angry people anxious to hang somebody, and they really don't care who they hang . . .

 

Whatever "hanging" has to be done will be done by the Lord Himself. In the Book of Revelation, John repeatedly warnes the saints of the latter-days to remember that when the "last days of of trouble and gloom" arrive it needs to be understood that "he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword," meaning that foolhardy attempts to destroy the devil's work with physical violence will only backfire. Only the spiritual weapons of God will be effectual in holding off and then eventually destroying the devil's earthly kingdom.

 

As far as the identity of great worldwide secret combination to which President Benson was referring is concerned, our then Prophet deliberately included the scriptural reference to Ether 8: 18-25 in his final address to help us identify the great conspiracy of which he spoke. So for convenience I'll paste those verses here:

 

 18 And it came to pass that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God;

 19 For the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that man should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man.

 20 And now I, Moroni, do not write the manner of their oaths and combinations, for it hath been made known unto me that they are had among all people, and they are had among the Lamanites.

 21 And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking, and also the destruction of the people of Nephi.

 22 And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.

 23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

 24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

 25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning. (Ether 8: 18-25)

 

Moroni's words of warning make it obvious that the great worldwide secret combination to destroy freedom, of which he prophesied, would be identifiable to the Lord's people in the last days, otherwise he wouldn't have warned the saints that they must fight against it if they are going to keep their freedom (how can one fight against something he cannot identify?).

 

So what is its identity? Throughout his tenure as an Apostle and then as President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Ezra Taft Benson frequently identified and warned the Church of the worldwide secret combination of which he spoke in his final General Conference address. In October of 1988, I was sitting in one of the pews of our stake center watching General Conference live when President Benson issued his solemn warning of the existence of the worldwide secret combination to destroy freedom, prophesied in Moroni 8, and how it was even then gaining more and more influence and control (the only control of any real meaning and consequence is governmental control) over America and the entire world. Because I was very familiar with President Benson's many prior warnings when he identified the prophesied worldwide secret combination, I instantly knew precisely to whom and what he was referring. Anyone who cares to can go to the Church Website and become familiar the warnings about the nature and identity of the worldwide secret combination of which Elder Benson spoke by reading his past General Conference addresses.

 

But the problem is that there are many members of the Church today who likely believe they are intelligent enough and perceptive enough to know what's really going on in the world today, and these will likely scoff and mock the warnings Ezra Taft Benson has made over the years, believeing his warnings and fears have proved to be unfounded. But they will scoff, mock and scorn in ignorance because in their pride and spiritually blind conceit they fail to realize just how cunning, how artful and how brilliantly deceptive the adversary of men's souls really is.

 

I cannot say that I can blame anyone for not wanting to believe these things because when one does come to believe and accept the solemn truths of which President Benson spoke, it can be very unsettling. But who can deny that Moroni's warning in Ether 8:18-25 is at least equally unsettling?

 

In that same final prophetic General Conference address, President Benson warned us that at the time he spoke the sad realities which he revealed would appear unclear to many because the adversary's deceitfulness was succeeding at throwing up a smokescreen of confusion. But President Benson further testified that the day would come when the forces of the adversary would come right out into the open and no longer try conceal their diabolical designs. And when that day of crystal clear clarity would come -- when the forces of good and evil are plainly revealed for what they really and actually are for all to see -- the saints will no longer have the luxury to deny the identity and true nature of the once-prophesied worldwide secret combination. At this momentous moment in world history, every individual will have to make a final choice whether to take a stand for the kingdom of God and its righteousness, or whether to join with the forces of evil embodied in the great worldwide secret combination of evil that will boldly and fully come out into the revealing light of noon-day. President Benson's words:

 

I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. (See JS—H 1:45; D&C 1:9.) But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph. (See 1 Ne. 22:15–23.)

 

One day all the world will know President Benson was not called to be the President of the Restored Church by accident or happenstance. The prophetic warning of the great worldwide secret combination to destroy freedom and righteousness has now been confirmed by the voice of two witnesses, one ancient and one modern, and those who refuse to believe and heed these to prophetic warnings will soon be left with no excuse.

 

In a few moments I'll be heading off to work, and I expect to receive much wrath from my fellow Latter-day Saints. But I'm at peace because I know by the spirit of prophecy that I'm right: The spirit of freedom-destroying, godless totalitarian communism -- as well as its many other similar and allied "isms" -- is not dead, nor doth it sleep...

Edited April 15, 2015 by teddyaware

[rockpond]

The breakdown of the husband and wife traditional relationship is one of the main factors in the rise of homosexuality and SSA. 

 

CFR

[california boy]

Rodheadlee

Caliboy you're not getting it. SSA is a symptom not a cause. SSA is a direct result of the peace, love, dope era of the 60s. It's no accident that the Gay Bay (San Francisco) used to be the home/ birthplace of the hippies.

 

 

 

Well, somebody needs to alert Athenian Greeks circa 600 B.C.  

 

 

LOL.  perfect response.  Seriously how do you guys come up with some of this stuff.  You obviously can not dispute what I wrote so you come back with this?  Like someone said yesterday, it looks more like someone is looking for a lynching.  Lets go after the gays.

[Teancum]

There you go again relying on the arm of flesh -- in this case uninspired scholars who lack the spirit of revelation and who in many cases don't even believe. The Book of Mormon makes it perfectly clear the Saviour knew His Second Coming would not occur until many centuries after His resurrection. 

 

Again, this exchange demonstrates the utter futility of believers and unbelievers attempting to have any kind of meaningful discourse. Such exchanges invariably devolve into sophomoric "my day can beat your dad" contests.  

 

 

I always get a kick when a believer argues that I rely on the arm of flesh and they do not.  But you do as well.  The scriptures were written by men who claimed God was speaking through them one way or another. Still it came through humans... the arm of flesh.  Even the BoM states that there can be mistakes in this method of communication.

 

Next the BoM and D&C was produced by a man.  He claimed divine intervention, inspiration and so on but still a man. The arm of flesh.

 

The personal revelation you claim is through you... the arm of flesh.  Why should I trust you any more than a reputable scholar who has spent a life time studying these things both from the oldest texts they can as well as the historical understanding of those who read and heard their words?

 

You may blame the lack of meaningful dialogue on me but I am not the one who is claiming knowledge based on some supernatural intervention. You are and all you can say is "trust me this is really how God works... don't rely on the arm of flesh..."  But again you are the arm of flesh. How can there be meaningful discussion when you have an a priori assumption on these matters?

 

I am open to changing my mind on this and many other things if I can see evidence to even back up the spiritual confirmation. But not a spiritual confirmation that conflicts totally with the rational conclusion of the evidence.

 

So again I may add to the lack of meaningful dialogue but you and your approach does as well.

[Teancum]

Teancum, you are certainly a fine exponent for the power of positive thinking -- at least in this matter -- and I would certainly love to believe that everything is getting better and better every day in every way.  However, there is not a shred of evidence to support your pollyanish notions.

 

Not only are we faced with a daunting list of debacles coming at us like a fast freight train for the rest of this century, but recent history shows us without doubt that our fairy faith in the good of humankind is vastly misplaced.  Would that it were not so.

 

Today there are many more slaves and human trafficking than at any time in history, many more refugees on the move or dying than ever, many more wars being fought with far more sophisticated and deadly weapons than ever.  Global warming and climate change threaten whole regions with vast displacements of population, rising oceans, increased drought and famine, and consequent political and military havoc on a truly Malthusian scale.

 

 

I did not say we did not have huge problems.  Yet more of the world still has a better standard of living than even before.

 

I think the evidence bears that out.  Are there horrible problems?  Yes, I agree.  Are they proportionately worse than in the past?  Maybe, maybe not. I have not done and anthropological study on this.  Just was opining.  You are probably correct.   The world is about to implode.

[Gray]

I always get a kick when a believer argues that I rely on the arm of flesh and they do not.  But you do as well.  The scriptures were written by men who claimed God was speaking through them one way or another. Still it came through humans... the arm of flesh.  Even the BoM states that there can be mistakes in this method of communication.

 

 

Yes, there is no getting away from the arm of flesh. 

[Senator]

 

But the problem is that there are many members of the Church today who likely believe they are intelligent enough and perceptive enough to know what's really going on in the world today, and these will likely scoff and mock the warnings Ezra Taft Benson has made over the years, believeing his warnings and fears have proved to be unfounded. But they will scoff, mock and scorn in ignorance because in their pride and spiritually blind conceit they fail to realize just how cunning, how artful and how brilliantly deceptive the adversary of men's souls really is.

 

It's difficult to have a discussion with a sermon.

 

I was going to say, sounds like a new juicy topic to discuss, then I read this well-poisoning paragragh and realized, gee, there's no discussion to be had.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Senator

[Mormonmaniac]

The sole purpose of government is to force you to obey the law regardless of your conscience.

 

It's not a big leap from pharmacists to firefighters. Millegdeville, Georgia, where Brittany Cartrett had a miscarriage. She needed assistance passing the miscarried fetus, so her doctor prescribed her Misoprostol, a pill that would help her complete what had started naturally, if sadly. When her doctor called local Walmart to have it filled, the pharmacist on duty refused to do so because, as she later told Cartrett, "I couldn't think of a valid reason why you would need this prescription." Misoprostol can be used to induce abortion, which is why it would be effective after a miscarriage. When Cartrett explained why she needed it, the pharmacist said, "Well, I don't feel like there is a reason why you would need it, so we refused to fill it."

And it's perfectly fine because Georgia has a law that says if pharmacists think that someone's prescription violates their beliefs, they can refuse to fill it because of a conscience clause, which over 20 states have or are considering. In this case, that meant that, despite a doctor calling in the prescription, the pharmacist thought, "Abortin' babeez" and bugged out.

By the way, Brittany Cartrett is a devout Christian who once worked at the same Walmart. And her response to the ensuing controversy, which became known because of her Facebook post on it, is about as common sense as you can get: "The point is that she refused to fill it based on an assumption and that is not her job. Her job is to fill it. Not to make the decision as to why I needed it. There has to be a line drawn when it comes to stuff like this."

What is your point in regards to strengthening family?

[Mormonmaniac]

CFR

Do not have to, it was my "belief". I could find a reference for you though, I am sure there is one out there.

[sethpayne]

I always get a kick when a believer argues that I rely on the arm of flesh and they do not.  But you do as well.  The scriptures were written by men who claimed God was speaking through them one 

 

Yes, there is no getting away from the arm of flesh. 

 

 

It is important to keep good posture and technique when utilizing the arm of flesh.  Otherwise, serious injury could result.

[rockpond]

Do not have to, it was my "belief". I could find a reference for you though, I am sure there is one out there.

 

You need to write it as a belief or opinion.  If you write something as a statement of fact (which you did) and then refuse to provide a reference when asked, you are in violation of the board guidelines.

[Mormonmaniac]

You need to write it as a belief or opinion.  If you write something as a statement of fact (which you did) and then refuse to provide a reference when asked, you are in violation of the board guidelines.

Go back and read the "entire" post #74. Here it is-

" The breakdown of the husband and wife traditional relationship is one of the main factors in the rise of homosexuality and SSA. That traditional marriage breakdown is also the cause of a lot of other sinful sexual activity and drug abuse, crime, etc.That is my belief."

If you will note I said at the end "That is my belief". I thus do not have to provide a CFR. But I can get you one if you ask nicely.