What Is Destroying America? The Importance Of Traditional Marriage.

[rockpond]

Gay marriage has about as much chance of destroying America as the critics do of destroying the church.

 

Excellent 1,000th post for yourself!

[Gray]

It's pretty simple. Theologically I believe a human spirit can't progress in the plan of salvation, which as I understand it requires male and female working with each other to progress into the eternities.

 

Okay, but how is that affected by gay marriage? Gay people are gay whether or not they are allowed to marry. 

The undesirable effect would be the inability to progress in God's great work.

 

In what way? Again, gay marriage does not increase the number of gay people. 

As for the societal effects, a great many other people have commented on this before, and I'll leave it to them.

 

I have yet to see any evidence of any negative societal effects from gay marriage. 

 

My responses are in blue, thanks!

[Senator]

The context is the USA and this particular article, which references data that studies the positive and negative effects of different situations. The traditional marriage in that context is what we are talking about.

So the USofA it is.

The example I'm talking about happened right here in the US a little over 100 years ago.

[Senator]

A traditional family consists of the children and their biologic mother and father married and together.

If I was an adoptive parent, or an adopted child, I would feel like thumping you on the head about now.

Heck, I'm neither of those and I still would like to thump you on the head.

[teddyaware]

You've made this point before, and I believe I responded with this same question but haven't seen a reply from you:  Who here is asking for a sign?

 

This seems like a strawman argument.

 

Straw man argument? The living Prophets and Apostles of the Church have solemnly warned the world that legalized gay marriage (among other forms of erosion on the essentiality and sanctity of traditional male/female marriage) is a very bad idea that will have serious negative consequences for society. But you want immediate proof (A SIGN) that the prophets are correct to have issued such a warning before gay marriage has been fully legalized and before enough time has elapsed to demonstrate through real-life negative consequences that leaders were right to have warned the world.

 

But here's the problem: Even when the time comes that the leaders of the Church are proven to be correct, the sign seekers won't believe society has been negatively impacted, even though the negative consequences will be painfully obvious to the believers. So at the end of the process we'll all end up right where were started -- only in the next phase of the death spiral we'll hear the progressives, doubters and naysayers saying non-heavenly authorized straight and and gay plural marriages are also not a bad thing for society. And the cycle of spiritual death and rebellion will continue to spiral downward into more and more bizarre forms of legalized ungodly behavior until the nation has fully ripened in iniquity and the Lord sweeps the wicked off the face of the earth as occurred in the case of the Nephites.

 

So let me make things perfectly clear: You want the General Authorities to be immediately be proven right i(A SIGN) that their prophecies of worldwide divine judgements of destruction upon the wicked if the sanctity of traditional male/female marriage and  family life is not upheld and supported by society, and this BEFORE the day of fully ripened iniquity and the resultant divine judgements of destruction arrive. It's as if at the beginning of the process one says, "Look! The sky hasn't fallen like the LDS prophets said it would! So the LDS prophets, and those gullible followers who believe in them, have been proven to be "all wet." It's the same mindset so powerfully demonstrated by Laman and Lemuel when they scolded Nephi and said:

 

 

21 Behold, these many years we have suffered in the wilderness, which time we might have enjoyed our possessions and the land of our inheritance; yea, and we might have been happy.

22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us. (1 Nephi 17)

 

So here we see the Jews in the Holy Land in a state of totally ripened in iniquity, about to be destroyed by the armed forces of Babylon; but Laman and Lemuel were so spiritually blind -- because in their wickedness they refused to believe the prophecies of destruction and for that reason were unable to read the signs of the times -- that they actually thought the desperately evil people of their homeland "WERE A RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE!!!" And so it goes as history repeats itself...

Edited April 14, 2015 by teddyaware

[Crypto]

It's pretty simple. Theologically I believe a human spirit can't progress in the plan of salvation, which as I understand it requires male and female working with each other to progress into the eternities.

 

Okay, but how is that affected by gay marriage? Gay people are gay whether or not they are allowed to marry. 

 

Being attracted to the same gender doesn't stop one from moving forward towards God. Acting in opposition to God, and making a mockery of sacred things does.
That type of marriage as such acts as a stumbling block.

 

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not too keen on debating this particular topic. I entered because I saw to me an annoying catch phrase argument, much like a slogan. I addressed it by presenting how the leading question was asking the wrong question. Even if you disagree with the reasoning, it is what it is.
 

[danielwoods]

Didn't realize that American views on marriage were the only ones that counted.

 

In this thread, since that the topic as set out by the article in the OP. 

 

No one is forcing any bakers or photographers to agree that anything is moral either. 

 

No, just forcing them to violate their conscience. 

[danielwoods]

I absolutely agree that the government should support strong families with strong morals.  A great statement that is easy to say but impossible for you to explain.  What do you think the government should do in addition to what they are currently doing to support strong families with strong morals?  When gay couples have chosen to adopt children from heterosexual couples that have abandoned them, do those children also deserve the exact same support from the federal government?  

 

So tell us all, if you could have the government do anything at all, anything that you can dream up to support traditional families more what would you have them do what would it be?  And how does gay marriage stop ANY of that support from happening?

 

 

 

 

It is insignificant.  Now tell us how gay marriage will force religious people to abandon their religious beliefs.  Has all the people in Mass been forced to abandon their religious beliefs since gay marriage was made leagle years ago?  If you can't do that, then you do not have a point other than agreeing that gay marriage is insignificant to what is tearing apart traditional families.

 

 

3. The elephant in the room that no one talks about is where will it end? 

 

I have given you nothing but FACTS.  You respond with fear mongering.  While you have replied to my post (thank you very much)  you have not responded to my post. 

 

Once again, from the article

 

 

Not a single one of those children were born into a SSM.  Now for all of those that have spent so much energy fighting gay marriage, just how big of problem is gay marriage.  Something more than fear mongering would be appreciated.  Like a real answer, not hyperbole

 

1. What should the government do? Continue to support and give tax breaks to families. What about adopted kids? We should be doing as much as we can as a society to help them. The best place for adopted kids is in a traditional family. Short of that, orphanages, other types of family situations are not ideal, but that is what we are left with. 

 

2. The issue isn't about gay marriage, that was my point. It's to force everyone to bow to their point of view. 

 

3. You didn't answer my question, because no one knows where it will stop. Once door is open, who knows what may happen. 

 

In answer to your question. I agree. Gay marriage isn't the cause but a symptom. 

[Senator]

The best place for adopted kids is in a traditional family. Short of that, orphanages, other types of family situations are not ideal, but that is what we are left with.

Can you turn you head so I can thump the other side.....

[Gray]

Being attracted to the same gender doesn't stop one from moving forward towards God. Acting in opposition to God, and making a mockery of sacred things does.

That type of marriage as such acts as a stumbling block.

 

A stumbling block to whom? People already disposed to marry are not likely to remain celibate just because gay marriage isn't given legal recognition. 

 

 

My response in green, thanks

[Gray]

 

No, just forcing them to violate their conscience. 

 

If a business owner is not disposed to serve the general public without prejudice, they are already going to find themselves running contrary to old and existing laws. Nothing is really changing 

[Teancum]

The Saviour taught us that those who lack faith and do not believe in the scriptures and the living prophets will find it difficult to correctly discern the signs of the times because they lack the insight that only the spirit of prophecy can bring. As one who believes and follows the scriptures and the living prophets, and as one who humbly believes he has a portion of the spirit of prophecy, it's not at all surprising to me that you don't seem to see and properly interpret (according to my view) what's happening right before your eyes. The Saviour taught that those who don't believe will be doubting and discounting the inspired warnings of the prophets, and the actual fulfillments of prophecies that are taking place right before their eyes, right up until to the very last minute just before the Second Coming of Christ. All the terrible judgements of God that will surround such people and all the terrible wars that fill the world will merely be accounted as events that are par for the course of human history with no divine component whatsoever to the constant torrent of disasters and horrors that will increasingly encroach on every side. 

 

You have every right to believe what you want to believe, as do I, but there is no way anyone will be able to prevent the inevitable consequences that will flow from the choices that are made. I have thrown in my lot with the prophets and the scriptures and cannot do anything other than raise the voice of warning, for I know we are living in the last days and soon the floodgates of wickedness will be thrown wide opened in the raging storm of the last days; and when that day comes -- and it will come soon -- only the willfully blind will be able to deny the truth that God is pouring out His judgements without measure upon a world ripening in iniquity. I believe with all my heart that President Benson spoke the truth when in his last General Conference address he warned the world that...

 

 

"I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. (See D&C 1:14–16; D&C 84:49–53.) It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (See Ether 8:18–25.)

 

I testify that the church and kingdom of God is increasing in strength. Its numbers are growing, as is the faithfulness of its faithful members. It has never been better organized or equipped to perform its divine mission.

 

I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. (See JS—H 1:45; D&C 1:9.) But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph. (See 1 Ne. 22:15–23.)

 

P.S. I'm wondering why these discussions between believers and doubters always have to devolve into "show me a sign or I won't believe" exercises in futility, when the Saviour said that people will receive no sign until after they have successfully passed through their own personal "trial of faith?" I'm also wondering why believers, like me, continue to try to convince the doubters and the naysayers when we know from experience that our efforts will not work? Perhaps there's a psychologist on the board who can explain the phenomenon. 

.  

 

 

Yes of course and it is no surprise that your dogma and lack evidence gets in the way of discernment that includes reason.  Oh yes  this comment will make the believers angry.  But it is not different than what you said to me.   Christian believers have believed the end was nigh since Jesus. In fact Jesus believed it. So did Paul. Neither thought the winding up scenes were 2000 years down the road. Nor have almost every generation of Christians since.

 

1000 Year from now these same things will be debated but the world will spin on.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Teancum

[teddyaware]

Yes of course and it is no surprise that your dogma and lack evidence gets in the way of discernment that includes reason.  Oh yes  this comment will make the believers angry.  But it is not different than what you said to me.   Christian believers have believed the end was nigh since Jesus. In fact Jesus believed it. So did Paul. Neither thought the winding up scenes were 2000 years down the road. Nor have almost every generation of Christians since.

 

1000 Year from now these same things will be debated but the world will spin on.

 

And, of course, you are wrong. Paul said the Second Coming wouldn't occur until until there came a falling away first. And Jesus taught the Nephites that the Second Coming wouldn't take place until after the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in the latter-days of the Gentiles and the building of Zion on the American continent. With great insight, eloquence and power, Peter spoke of the people with such unbelieving attitudes  who would live in the last days. 

 

 

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (This verse exactly expresses your sentiment)

 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 

 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Peter 3)

Edited April 14, 2015 by teddyaware

[california boy]

1. What should the government do? Continue to support and give tax breaks to families. What about adopted kids? We should be doing as much as we can as a society to help them. The best place for adopted kids is in a traditional family. Short of that, orphanages, other types of family situations are not ideal, but that is what we are left with. 

 

 

And I don't see any of that changing just because gay marriage becomes legal do you??

 

 

2. The issue isn't about gay marriage, that was my point. It's to force everyone to bow to their point of view. 

 

 

 

If you are going to make this kind of statement, you are going to have to back it up.  For the millionth time, you nor anyone else will be forced to change your point of view one iota.  You should really drop this claim unless you can actually back it up with something real.  No one is buying it because you have no facts to back it up.  There is no law on the horizon that is going to force anyone to change their religious beliefs.  

 

 

 

3. You didn't answer my question, because no one knows where it will stop. Once door is open, who knows what may happen. 

 

In answer to your question. I agree. Gay marriage isn't the cause but a symptom. 

 

 

 

There is no reasonable forecast concerning gay marriage except for the FACT that gay marriage will lead to any of these conditions.

 

• One-third of children are rejected before birth in abortion;
• One-third are born to an unmarried mother without a father who is committed to taking care of them.
• One-half of those who are born to married parents will see their parents reject each other before they reach age 18.

 

 

 

 

 

And these have been identified as the greatest threat to traditional families.  Yet again, gay marriage does not and can not contribute to any of these problems.

 

 

[Boanerges]

I keep seeing this "How does gay marriage threaten your marriage"

Answer is it threatens the existing social structures and certain moral principals, which have undesired effects to the opposing population. It's not at all about how it affects "[my] marriage"

 

I totally agree that it's not just about how it will affect your marriage. Do you not understand that these gay people who are now allowed to marry were living together and having sinful sex anyway? The only thing that has changed is they now have a piece of paper saying they're married. How has that affected society? And just to be clear here, in my state it has been legal for decades for an individual (straight or gay) to adopt a child, we need not even go there. Singles here, straight or gay, can also be foster parents.

[rockpond]

Straw man argument? The living Prophets and Apostles of the Church have solemnly warned the world that legalized gay marriage (among other forms of erosion on the essentiality and sanctity of traditional male/female marriage) is a very bad idea that will have serious negative consequences for society. But you want immediate proof (A SIGN) that the prophets are correct to have issued such a warning before gay marriage has been fully legalized and before enough time has elapsed to demonstrate through real-life negative consequences that leaders were right to have warned the world.

But here's the problem: Even when the time comes that the leaders of the Church are proven to be correct, the sign seekers won't believe society has been negatively impacted, even though the negative consequences will be painfully obvious to the believers. So at the end of the process we'll all end up right where were started -- only in the next phase of the death spiral we'll hear the progressives, doubters and naysayers saying non-heavenly authorized straight and and gay plural marriages are also not a bad thing for society. And the cycle of spiritual death and rebellion will continue to spiral downward into more and more bizarre forms of legalized ungodly behavior until the nation has fully ripened in iniquity and the Lord sweeps the wicked off the face of the earth as occurred in the case of the Nephites.

So let me make things perfectly clear: You want the General Authorities to be immediately be proven right i(A SIGN) that their prophecies of worldwide divine judgements of destruction upon the wicked if the sanctity of traditional male/female marriage and family life is not upheld and supported by society, and this BEFORE the day of fully ripened iniquity and the resultant divine judgements of destruction arrive. It's as if at the beginning of the process one says, "Look! The sky hasn't fallen like the LDS prophets said it would! So the LDS prophets, and those gullible followers who believe in them, have been proven to be "all wet." It's the same mindset so powerfully demonstrated by Laman and Lemuel when they scolded Nephi and said:

21 Behold, these many years we have suffered in the wilderness, which time we might have enjoyed our possessions and the land of our inheritance; yea, and we might have been happy.

22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us. (1 Nephi 17)

So here we see the Jews in the Holy Land in a state of totally ripened in iniquity, about to be destroyed by the armed forces of Babylon; but Laman and Lemuel were so spiritually blind -- because in their wickedness they refused to believe the prophecies of destruction and for that reason were unable to read the signs of the times -- that they actually thought the desperately evil people of their homeland "WERE A RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE!!!" And so it goes as history repeats itself...

Ah, now I see what you mean by a sign. That strikes me as fitting into Scott Lloyd's "emotional blackmail" concept. Asking for an explanation of how gay marriage could harm straight marriage is demanding a sign and marks you as wicked rather than just being an honest inquiry.

Either way, you've misunderstood my position. I'm not asking for proof that the prophets are right.

[Teancum]

And, of course, you are wrong. Paul said the Second Coming wouldn't occur until until there came a falling away first. And Jesus taught the Nephites that the Second Coming wouldn't take place until after the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in the latter-days of the Gentiles and the building of Zion on the American continent. With great insight, eloquence and power, Peter spoke of the people with such unbelieving attitudes  who would live in the last days. 

 

 

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (This verse exactly expresses your sentiment)

 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 

 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Peter 3)

 

 

And of course you are wrong. At least according to many and most reputable NT scholars. 

[Mormonmaniac]

Sometimes I think these boards should be renamed the "anti-mormon dialogue & discussion board". I am really surprised so many seem to be offended at strengthening the traditional family.

[Brian 2.0]

Kind of interesting that I brought up the articke in the link in the OP to discuss the role of family values in traditional families. Somehow, this thread is getting derailed into yet another gay marriage debate. I think its definitely an issue but not the point I was originally aiming for. In this post I am more interested in ways of keeping traditional families together. I think gay marriage and homosexuality is but just one symptom of the breakdown of the traditional family with parents divorcing, single parents, etc. That is why I think we need to refocus on strengthening the traditional family unit as the stabilizer of our country. A traditional family consists of the children and their biologic mother and father married and together.

So you are saying that more people are gay today partly because divorce rates have gone up and there are more single parent homes?

Do you think the amount of SSA has increased or simply more people acting on it?

Edited April 15, 2015 by Brian 2.0

[The Nehor]

Sometimes I think these boards should be renamed the "anti-mormon dialogue & discussion board". I am really surprised so many seem to be offended at strengthening the traditional family.

 

The "do not practice homosexuality" rule does not strengthen the traditional family. Rampant homosexuality might weaken it but there is a monomania about homosexuality. We could try to tackle people being jerks incapable of being in a loving relationship, heterosexual sexually libertine behavior, selfishness, pornography, and a host of other ills that are much more threatening to the traditional family but instead so many focus on the one sin they are most likely never going to be tempted by. I think this in itself is a weakness. Why do we pick the easy target that most will never struggle with? Cowardice?

[Teancum]

Sometimes I think these boards should be renamed the "anti-mormon dialogue & discussion board". I am really surprised so many seem to be offended at strengthening the traditional family.

 

 

Who is offended?

[The Nehor]

So you are saying that more people are gay today partly because divorce rates have gone up and there are more single parent homes?

Do you think the amount of SSA has increased or simply more people acting on it?

 

I think there has been a big increase in homosexual experimentation amongst those who are heterosexual but curious and those who the world would consider bi. In the past it was less socially acceptable to act on these impulses.

 

Edited April 15, 2015 by The Nehor

[teddyaware]

And of course you are wrong. At least according to many and most reputable NT scholars. 

 

There you go again relying on the arm of flesh -- in this case uninspired scholars who lack the spirit of revelation and who in many cases don't even believe. The Book of Mormon makes it perfectly clear the Saviour knew His Second Coming would not occur until many centuries after His resurrection. 

 

Again, this exchange demonstrates the utter futility of believers and unbelievers attempting to have any kind of meaningful discourse. Such exchanges invariably devolve into sophomoric "my day can beat your dad" contests.  

[Mormonmaniac]

So you are saying that more people are gay today partly because divorce rates have gone up and there are more single parent homes?

Do you think the amount of SSA has increased or simply more people acting on it?

The breakdown of the husband and wife traditional relationship is one of the main factors in the rise of homosexuality and SSA. That traditional marriage breakdown is also the cause of a lot of other sinful sexual activity and drug abuse, crime, etc.That is my belief.

[Mormonmaniac]

The "do not practice homosexuality" rule does not strengthen the traditional family. Rampant homosexuality might weaken it but there is a monomania about homosexuality. We could try to tackle people being jerks incapable of being in a loving relationship, heterosexual sexually libertine behavior, selfishness, pornography, and a host of other ills that are much more threatening to the traditional family but instead so many focus on the one sin they are most likely never going to be tempted by. I think this in itself is a weakness. Why do we pick the easy target that most will never struggle with? Cowardice?

Let it be noted that the number one thing I think weakens families is a bad husband/wife relationship where they do not treat each other with respect and fall out of love with each other for selfish and lazy reasons. That relationship is the key to family strength and strength in a community, strength in society, and strength overall in a nation and the world. I did not start this thread to pick on gays. IMy intent was to search out ways to support and strengthen the traditional husband and wife relationship and its impact on our society as a whole.