Dehlin's In The News? What?

[Storm Rider]

So let me understand, if the church provided each of you an accounting of where every cent of your tithe was spent you would be happy?  Let's say that you disagreed that your tithing money was spent on the janitorial work on your ward house and at the stake center.  This is an action that you are strongly against.  You reprimand the bishop for not first seeking your specific approval of such an action and demand that those funds be refunded and applied to a category that you personally find more agreeable.  Now we know that the bishop is not working to your personal satisfaction and you withdraw your support for him.  You also know that the Church does not begin to understand how important your tithes are because they obviously are not spending on worthwhile endeavors according to your opinion.  

 

Please tell me how much time you think the bishop has to meet your standards?  How much time does Church staff have to meet your financial standards?  How are you personally benefited by this much data?  

 

Fundamentally, you folks that have a problem don't trust anyone to handle your money.  This is an understandable position.  My advice is don't pay your tithing until you can trust the Church and God to spend tithing funds more wisely, or at least to your satisfaction.  In fact, stop going to church because I am certain that no one can give a proper talk or at least a talk that meets your high standards of oratory.  More importantly, stop praying until God can finally understand that when you pray you need an immediate answer that also meets your exacting standards.  What a happy world you will live in because you will finally be where everyone is doing exactly as you wish; if they don't they can be ridiculed into obedience or cast off as grossly inferior.  Think about what you are asking for; I only wish you could obtain it...for your own satisfaction.  

Edited February 9, 2015 by Storm Rider

[VideoGameJunkie]

I assume my personal tithing goes into making those fancy chandeliors in the temples because the temples have to look expensive as possible.

[Tacenda]

I assume my personal tithing goes into making those fancy chandeliors in the temples because the temples have to look expensive as possible.

 

 

 

VGJ, when you mention chandeliers it reminded me about the Young Women (I think it was them) putting together the large chandelier in the Draper temple.  The tour guide at the open house mentioned the hours it took to put each crystal on it.  I tried to find more information about it and ran across the article below, apparently it's been done to other temples.  Kind of a neat experience, and probably saves some money, of course I don't know if that's the reason it's done this way, probably not.  

  http://murrayandmathews.blogspot.com/2012/10/boise-temple-chandeliers.html Boise Temple Chandeliers  

Tuesday, September 18th I was able to give some service at the Boise Temple and help put together the chandeliers. A member of our ward is part of the architecture firm that planned the remodel for the Boise Temple. So our ward and the ward of the "engineer" were able to go help put the chandeliers together. Putting all the crystals on the frames around the whole temple.

 

Normally I never can do this because it's during the day and I am self employed and never take time off. Because when I don't work I don't get paid. However, several people asked me to go, so I arranged my work schedule so I could go help.

 

It was a wonderful experience to be in the temple and see some of the changes that were made. It's absolutely beautiful!

 

We worked on a chandelier outside the celestial room, but were able to put on a couple of crystals on the huge chandelier in the celestial room.

 

This is not an actual picture of the chandelier we did, but it kinda looked like this. 

 

 

This is a celestial room in another temple - not the Boise temple. But the crystal chandeliers are amazing along with the beauty of the temple

 

 

I served the 2nd shift 1-5 so the celestial room chandelier was half way done when we arrived. We were able to put a few crystals on it to say that we helped. The chandelier was down near the floor so they could put the crystals on.

 

When the chandelier was complete they raised it up to the ceiling dome. As it was being raised, my friend Carla said we should pray or sing something. So I started to sing "I love to see the Temple" and she joined in and then the rest of the sisters watching it go up started singing too. It was timed almost perfect that when the song ended it was all the way up the dome.

 

The spirit was so strong and several sisters were crying... doesn't music bring the spirit so strongly? It was a fun experience to be there in the temple providing this wonderful service. I'm glad I was able to attend and have a peek at the new remodeled temple.

 

It's different to be inside the temple and to look around and enjoy the temple that way. We sat in many different rooms just looking at the detail. Normally I am just paying attention to the service when I normally attend and don't notice all the beautiful details inside the temple. I've never been in the Boise temple baptismal font, bridal room or several of the sealing rooms. I was able to sit in all of them and take in the beauty.  I am grateful I had that amazing experience!

[ERayR]

Income is not the same as increase. Increase is the same as profit.

The reason for the word "increase" is that the vast majority of households used to be farms. If you plant some land in wheat, using 100 pounds of seed, for example, upon harvest you will have, say, 1,000 pounds of wheat. Assume for the example that you don't sell any of it, but retain some for seed, some for consumption, and some for barter. How do you calculate your tithing? On the increase, which in this case would be 900 pounds (harvest minus seed). So you give the bishop 90 pounds of wheat for tithing. If your chickens had produced 200 eggs, then you would pay 20 eggs for tithing.

In short, "increase" is a term that deals with "in kind" donations.

 

Or say you invest $10,000 and when you sell your investment you get $100,000 after paying all your brokerage fees.  Your increase would be $90,000 - tithe = $9,000.  Increase is very much a valid term today as in the past.

[ERayR]

I assume my personal tithing goes into making those fancy chandeliors in the temples because the temples have to look expensive as possible.

No it is because God deserves the best.

[Analytics]

I think you are missing my point....or I'm not making it well. I'm not judging. I'm commenting, just as Dehlin does on the church. I think I'm pretty open about problems in the church or unresolved issues. But for some reason, all hell breaks loose when the same openness and frankness is applied to this guy.

 

The point is, his over the top reaction to this disclosure is proof that it is problematic for him.  That is a given. The shaming (this is the word Dehlin used) of other organizations is also proof this is problematic....

 

John argues that it is entirely appropriate for organizations such as the Red Cross, the Boy Scouts of America, the Mormon Church, and the Open Stories Foundation to pay their professional staffs.  He also argues that such organizations should be financially transparent.  The Board of Open Stories chooses to be financially transparent, and this choice of theirs is what allowed Stack-Fletcher to have material for her story; if they didn't publicly disclose their financials, Fletch-Stacker wouldn't have had any material for her story.  John doesn't somehow shame other organizations for paying their staff--he uses them as an example of how the practice isn't the least bit unusual.

 

So just to clarify, what is the shame you are talking about?  Are you suggesting the Boy Scouts, Mormon Church, Open Stories, etc. should be ashamed that they pay their leaders?  Or are you saying it is okay that they are paid, as long as they are secretive about their finances?

[Glenn101]

   Maybe I'm just an old fogey, but I personally cannot or just do not (I probably could if I tried) get all steamed up about John Dehlin and his press releases, etc. or those of Kate Kelly. I only find within myself a lot of sadness for what I feel they are missing from the church.

 

Glenn

[VideoGameJunkie]

I can't make a thread, so any news on Dehlin's council?

[ERayR]

Of cousrse it is.  Without a thought it is rejected right away. 

 

Just because I don't agree with you I am not thinking?  What an elitist attitude.  Come now surely thinking people can disagree with you.

[Calm]

I can't make a thread, so any news on Dehlin's council?

It is likely later in the evening and there is a good chance in my opinion they may delay on the verdict, though unlike Kelly's council, it was the bishop who decides on his own after conferring with his councilors and iirc with a MP holder it is the consensus of the council, not just the SP so I don't know if that is an option.

We don't even know if Dehlin agreed to attend given the requirement of no recording seeing as how he has apparently recorded prior meetings (though without the knowledge of his leaders).

[Calm]

VGJ, looks like this link will help you keep up with what is going on tonight:

 

http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2156888-155/hundreds-applaud-mormon-critic-as-he

[Tacenda]

It's almost like John is like a lamb going to the slaughter in the article Cal linked. I say that because it seems he has risen so high among the MS's group that if ex'd might become like a martyr. If I were him I would hate all that attention. There's only one that should have that kind of adulation (the article said 200 of his supporters were at the church). Listen to me... I sound like I don't like the guy, I'm not saying that, I'm just worried things are going to go south for him, if people put him on a pedestal. I don't think he wants that. I just feel bad for his family. The spotlight's got to be getting so old.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Tacenda

[Calm]

I don't think he wants that.

 

Then he should stop constantly publicizing every little thing that happens to him.

[Tacenda]

Then he should stop constantly publicizing every little thing that happens to him.

You're probably right on that point. Or he feels like he's already an open book. Edited February 9, 2015 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

This has nothing to do with other organizations or "transparency" or what I think about it personally. It has to do with the disclosure of his very healthy income right before his council. It is ironic, however, that the church is being used as a defense since one of the most often used accusations against it is how much GAs supposedly make. That proves the point that such disclosures are supposed to be embarrassing, it doesn't help Dehlin's case.

 

At any rate, Dehlin himself now proves that this is an embarrassing disclosure with his rather telling response and criticism of the one who has probably given him the most media assistance.  http://mormonstories.org/a-response-to-peggy-fletcher-stack-about-osf-finances/   In his What Were You Thinking, Peggy Stack?? response he accuses,

 

Trouble is, it isn't just an LDS thing. Nobody likes social crusaders who are making big bucks off of their followers.  (That this obvious fact is followed up with another look at what the Red Cross CEO makes! is proof of that such disclosures are considered embarrassing.) 

 

After reading this, I think it pretty clear that his real concern is that donations will dry up when his donors find out how much he makes.

 

What is the first thing he tries to do? Shame Peggy Stack. Then he tries to shame LDS leaders for what they make...while also using it as an excuse for what he makes. Or something.  Rather ironic.

 

And best comment ever....

He <really> got after Peggy because she brought up stuff that made him uncomfortable? As a journalist she should wear that as a badge of honor.

[Robert F. Smith]

He <really> got after Peggy because she brought up stuff that made him uncomfortable? As a journalist she should wear that as a badge of honor.

Yes, Peggy proved her mettle as a good journalist.  It was neither pro nor anti-Mormon,  Just good, fair-minded reportage.  We need more of that.

[Robert F. Smith]

The big deal is you really don't know where any of the church money goes..I don't either of course.  But all the money I gave to the church does not show on any statement where it has gone..that should at least be a requirement at tithing settlement.

I agree that all the books should be transparent, and that an independent auditor should be brought in.

 

However, I'm not sure that the bishop could do that at tithing settlement time, because he does not know what particular funding the Church has engaged in.  Moreover, his own immediate disbursements of fast offerings (fully under his control) are typically made for confidential aid to some of the less fortunate - who would be deeply embarrassed at any public disclosure.  The bishop could, however, make available the annual budgetary figures for ward activities.

 

The LDS Church could make a detailed annual public report on all classes of disbursements, including salaries, benefits, and retirement plans for CES employees, and stipends for the Brethren (expense accounts, if applicable).  I think that this would demonstrate that, of all religious organizations and corporations, LDS disbursements are far more eleemosynary and tightly managed than other such organizations.  The CEOs and heads of other churches are paid far more than the Mormon elite.

[Robert F. Smith]

Income is not the same as increase. Increase is the same as profit.

The reason for the word "increase" is that the vast majority of households used to be farms. If you plant some land in wheat, using 100 pounds of seed, for example, upon harvest you will have, say, 1,000 pounds of wheat. Assume for the example that you don't sell any of it, but retain some for seed, some for consumption, and some for barter. How do you calculate your tithing? On the increase, which in this case would be 900 pounds (harvest minus seed). So you give the bishop 90 pounds of wheat for tithing. If your chickens had produced 200 eggs, then you would pay 20 eggs for tithing.

In short, "increase" is a term that deals with "in kind" donations.

How does that work in years in which the farm suffers a loss or low return (is in the red for feed, seed, fertilizer, and equipment, or prices tanked, or the harvest was low).  The IRS even allows one to spread losses over several years.  The same applies to investors from year to year.  So, how does one calculate his "increase" from a simple profit & loss statement, or can he?

[Robert F. Smith]

So let me understand, if the church provided each of you an accounting of where every cent of your tithe was spent you would be happy?  Let's say that you disagreed that your tithing money was spent on the janitorial work on your ward house and at the stake center.  This is an action that you are strongly against.  You reprimand the bishop for not first seeking your specific approval of such an action and demand that those funds be refunded and applied to a category that you personally find more agreeable.  Now we know that the bishop is not working to your personal satisfaction and you withdraw your support for him.  You also know that the Church does not begin to understand how important your tithes are because they obviously are not spending on worthwhile endeavors according to your opinion.  

.....................................................................................  

 Thing about what you are asking for; I only wish you could obtain it...for you own satisfaction.  

Where does "common consent" come in, if at all?  Do members have any responsibility in such matters, given the hierarchical nature of the Church?

[Coreyb]

No decision tonight on John's disciplinary council. He should be notified in a few days according to Church PR rep.

[Robert F. Smith]

Or say you invest $10,000 and when you sell your investment you get $100,000 after paying all your brokerage fees.  Your increase would be $90,000 - tithe = $9,000.  Increase is very much a valid term today as in the past.

So, you say that we should pay on the net, rather than the gross.

[carbon dioxide]

I agree that all the books should be transparent, and that an independent auditor should be brought in.

 

However, I'm not sure that the bishop could do that at tithing settlement time, because he does not know what particular funding the Church has engaged in.  Moreover, his own immediate disbursements of fast offerings (fully under his control) are typically made for confidential aid to some of the less fortunate - who would be deeply embarrassed at any public disclosure.  The bishop could, however, make available the annual budgetary figures for ward activities.

 

The LDS Church could make a detailed annual public report on all classes of disbursements, including salaries, benefits, and retirement plans for CES employees, and stipends for the Brethren (expense accounts, if applicable).  I think that this would demonstrate that, of all religious organizations and corporations, LDS disbursements are far more eleemosynary and tightly managed than other such organizations.  The CEOs and heads of other churches are paid far more than the Mormon elite.

Here is the problem I see.  If the Church was to give an accounting of how it spends the money, the first thing that is going to happen is people are going to pick it apart and complain.  Why did you do this. Why did you do that.  Then it will be an endless exercise of the Church having to explain itself.  Perhaps it it did for one year to show how things are done but a yearly thing will just cause more problems than what it is worth.

 

When I give my tith money to the Church, I don't care how the Church spends it.  I am not accountable of how it is spent.  If it is wasted, the Lord will hold those accountable for wasting it.  I have done my job and completely in the clear on the issue.  So I really don't care if the church keeps it private.  I have enough things going on in my life to worry about another thing.

[Scott Lloyd]

So, you say that we should pay on the net, rather than the gross.

I don't think that follows.

For a typical worker the net excludes things like taxes, health care insurance and investments in pensions and 401-K accounts. In my mind, those are expenditures for which one receives value as a consumer (in the case of taxes, that being public services, education, national defense, etc.).

Of course the Church has never given an official determination on this question. I'm explaining why I choose to pay tithing on the gross. I've never regretted doing so.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Where does "common consent" come in, if at all?  Do members have any responsibility in such matters, given the hierarchical nature of the Church?

Common consent is a declaration of one's intent to sustain those called by the Lord, not an endeavor to micromanage each and every decision they make.

[juliann]

 

 

So just to clarify, what is the shame you are talking about?  Are you suggesting the Boy Scouts, Mormon Church, Open Stories, etc. should be ashamed that they pay their leaders?  Or are you saying it is okay that they are paid, as long as they are secretive about their finances?

John is the one using the "shame" word. As I said previously,

 

And his "compensation???" does matter...but only because of the narrative he crafted for himself.

 

 

If it didn't matter to him, he wouldn't have objected to Peggy Stack disclosing his salary.