ERayR Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 I don't think Kelly is a good comparison. She and OW had planned to stop their Priesthood Session protests well before she was excommunicated. If she moves back to the U.S. and starts leading more protests I can guarantee you you'll see her name in the headlines again. Depends on whether is is a slow news day or not.
rockpond Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 No, but they have to file tax returns, Analytics! There is nothing wondrous on this statement. It is tax stuff...don't you disclose this same stuff on yours?Perhaps more accounting types can correct me, but it appears they are also paying him expenses along with his salary. It also appears to be no secret he receives gifts from benefactors.And seriously, how many people don't think someone who proclaims that they are only doing something out of sincere belief and conscience while being persecuted....and then turns out to be making more than most people off of it...wouldn't think this an embarrassing revelation? Isn't he the one claiming that people lose everything they have if they quit the church?Be careful, you're showing your ignorance. Both Dehlin's salary and paid expenses have been disclosed all along. The last few years are right there on the website I linked to. When was the last time an apostle disclosed his salary and paid expenses? And both Dehlin and the apostles do what they do out of sincerity. My parents served as mission president and I guarantee you that their stipend and expenses paid by the church exceeded $90k per year (though it's impossible to prove since the church doesn't disclose such things). And my parents were completely sincere in their missionary work. Further, Dehlin has been very public about needing to be paid in order to provide the podcasts. He explained that upfront BEFORE even asking for donations. In most of the podcasts you'll hear him thank MS contributors and explain that their contributions are used to support he and his family. No secrets. Now, will you apply the criticisms you are leveling at Dehlin regarding finances to the paid leaders of our church as well? 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 I wouldn't mind seeing what our apostles are paid.
rockpond Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 I wouldn't mind seeing what our apostles are paid.Juliann demonstrates why we are unlikely to ever know what the apostles receive. If she finds it embarrassing that Dehlin earns $90k and has his travel expenses paid, imagine how shell-shocked she'd be to learn what an apostle's stipend looks like. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) It makes about as much sense to say that "Shady Acres" is representative of ex-Mormons as it would be to say that this board is representative of current-Mormons. You're talking about an infinitesimal sampling. Please allow me to reiterate, since, apparently, I didn't make it clear enough the first time I wrote it: With the exception of posting regularly at Shady Acres , you mean? (I admit, I'm not sure how representative the population of Shady Acres is of ex-Mormondom at large ...) [Emphasis added and font size increased from original by Kenngo1969]I hope this clears up any confusion. Edited February 7, 2015 by Kenngo1969
Calm Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) I don't think Juliann is saying he should be embarrassed about being paid. It is the contrast between his and others' accusations of financial incentives for those who defend the Church (such as the many critics who assume there are FairMormon members who are paid to do the stuff they do with FM or those who assume Dan Peterson gets paid for his apologetic work) while he himself would be in the same category if they applied the same standard as well as the claim that he has suffered/been persecuted for his stance without a recognition he has significantly benefitted financially as well (it is one thing to say "I've been paid so much", it is another to say I've made more on this part time job than 80% or whatever of Americans for their fulltime in addition to any income I am getting as a grad student in research grants, etc and it has made mine and my family's life very comfortable)...I don't see how this context is being missed myself.If he has made such statements, I would be interested in seeing them. It has not been publicised to much extent beyond the information page that I've seen. (add-on: the acknowledgment of support for him and his family contributes evidence to him being open, but still does not deal with the double standards above he has helped create)His repeated statement that his salary includes taxes and insurance (why does he have to include that since everyone has to pay taxes and if they want insurance that as well) suggests that he is trying to diminish the amount that he receives in others' eyes which in turn suggests discomfort with the double standard issue. Edited February 7, 2015 by calmoriah 2
readstoomuch Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 He can make money off of his podcast. He is an entrepreneur. I have heard him making at least 50K a year for several years now. I think it is accurate to say that he makes at least that every year. He has had some retreats for couples going through faith transitions (one or both questioning and then dealing with the repercussions). Scholarships were given, but I assume that some paid. There are is also some counseling for individuals, though I have no idea how many or if any one is charged. As I think about it, I would have the most problem with him making money off of a market that he is creating. In other words if he was trying to plant seeds of doubt, so that he could with purpose turn it into a business model to benefit himself. It seems to me that he deliberately tries to plant doubt, but that is my own opinion and whether the doubt is planted solely to inspire a business plan-I don`t know. Only time will tell for sure. I also think John Dehlin is not going away any time soon. For me, if the number of Mormons going through a faith crisis will turn to FairMormon or legitimate, quality books about the Church instead of MormonStories I would be ecstatic. Unfortunately, I don`t think faith crises are going to go away, but I think we are slowly learning how to help our fellow members though them. As others have said, I hope John and any who have been effected negatively by him, will find their way back to God and the restored gospel. Yes, Mr Rockpond, I know you and others have been effected in a positive way by Mr. Dehlin. 1
Calm Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 Juliann demonstrates why we are unlikely to ever know what the apostles receive. If she finds it embarrassing that Dehlin earns $90k and has his travel expenses paid, imagine how shell-shocked she'd be to learn what an apostle's stipend looks like.If apostles went around presenting themselves of having sacrificed a comfortable way of life for one of hardship while accusing others of making money off of their followers, you would probably be closer to what Juliann is commenting on. 1
rockpond Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 If apostles went around presenting themselves of having sacrificed a comfortable way of life for one of hardship while accusing others of making money off of their followers, you would probably be closer to what Juliann is commenting on.How so?
rockpond Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 I don't think Juliann is saying he should be embarrassed about being paid. It is the contrast between his and others' accusations of financial incentives for those who defend the Church (such as the many critics who assume there are FairMormon members who are paid to do the stuff they do with FM or those who assume Dan Peterson gets paid for his apologetic work) while he himself would be in the same category if they applied the same standard as well as the claim that he has suffered/been persecuted for his stance without a recognition he has significantly benefitted financially as well (it is one thing to say "I've been paid so much", it is another to say I've made more on this part time job than 80% or whatever of Americans for their fulltime in addition to any income I am getting as a grad student in research grants, etc and it has made mine and my family's life very comfortable)...I don't see how this context is being missed myself.If he has made such statements, I would be interested in seeing them. It has not been publicised to much extent beyond the information page that I've seen. (add-on: the acknowledgment of support for him and his family contributes evidence to him being open, but still does not deal with the double standards above he has helped create)His repeated statement that his salary includes taxes and insurance (why does he have to include that since everyone has to pay taxes and if they want insurance that as well) suggests that he is trying to diminish the amount that he receives in others' eyes which in turn suggests discomfort with the double standard issue.I'm not aware of him havin made accusations about apologists being paid for their work.
Tacenda Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) But without the church, what's to keep one from spending that extra 10% on booze and women (or men).Low blow! Have you ever seen his family? Yeah, maybe if he was a single guy but he's a family man. Edited February 7, 2015 by Tacenda
Calm Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 Low blow!Have you ever seen his family? Yeah, maybe if he was a single guy but he's a family man.I think toon was just making a joke/being sarcastic about how some (hopefully fewer as time goes on) members see exmembers.
Tacenda Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 I think toon was just making a joke/being sarcastic about how some (hopefully fewer as time goes on) members see exmembers.You're probably right.
why me Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) He can make money off of his podcast. He is an entrepreneur. I have heard him making at least 50K a year for several years now. I think it is accurate to say that he makes at least that every year. He has had some retreats for couples going through faith transitions (one or both questioning and then dealing with the repercussions). Scholarships were given, but I assume that some paid. There are is also some counseling for individuals, though I have no idea how many or if any one is charged. As I think about it, I would have the most problem with him making money off of a market that he is creating. In other words if he was trying to plant seeds of doubt, so that he could with purpose turn it into a business model to benefit himself. I am not sure if he can make a profit from his podcasts. It has always been my impression that donations to mormonstories go to mormonstories and not for a new car or house. He is not exactly an entreneur because mormostories is not a socalled business. But when he has a private business such labels do stick. I think that there is a simple point behind all this: he is making money from his stance within by playing off the church as victimizer. And it has become a private business. Whether or not wayward members see it as such and whether or not they will keep giving money is the question. Also, I think that the media should watch over john and his cottage business. Likewise for the taxman. Humans are humans and even if john would buy an ice cream cone for him and his family with such donations may be illegal. Personally, I could never seek help from a psychologist who spends hours a day with podcasts and other things. I would prefer someone who can concentrate on the issues of their clients. Edited February 7, 2015 by why me
Calm Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) even if john would buy an ice cream cone for him and his family with such donations may be illegal. Lots of people are paid salaries in nonprofit organizations, sometimes quite large salaries, for example the Red Cross CEO was paid over a million in 2010 according to snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/charities.asp I would disagree that entrepreneurs only start up businesses, my husband is a college professor who specializes in entrepreneurship and one of his students right now is trying to start up a charity. Edited February 7, 2015 by calmoriah
why me Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 Lots of people are paid salaries in nonprofit organizations, sometimes quite large salaries, for example the Red Cross CEO was paid over a million in 2010 according to snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/charities.asp I would disagree that entrepreneurs only start up businesses, my husband is a college professor who specializes in entrepreneurship and one of his students right now is trying to start up a charity.This student would be a social entrepreneur. Howver if that student rasined 500 grand for the charity and pocketed 50 percent as a salary, what then? The red cross is an organization which is world wide, employing many people. John's mormonstories is john. Hard to convince people to give if much goes into the pocket of one man who runs the whole show. In the past, I had the impression that mormonstories was a hobby and not a business. Now it has become a cottege industry. Of which john made close to hundred grand. Hard not to see a conflict of interest in all this. Of course, I could make 200 grand in donations and take 45 percent of that as a salary. But is it legal? Is it ethical? Victimization can certainly be made into a business since we do live in a victimized society. Many want to see themselves as a victim...it sort of puts responsibilty away from them and onto to something else. However, there are genuine victims out there too. But should victimization be exploited for money and should people be told that they are victims when they do not feel like one? John's podcasts can certainly put such thougths into people's heads. It is win/win.
KevinG Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 I think Dehlin is a true believer in what he does. I have no problem with him taking a salary from his foundation, although the administrative costs is a high percentage. He does provide a service through communications and counseling.My issue is the content of what he provides, that puts him at odds with my church and beliefs. But I'd have to condemn a lot of people in the line that opposes my beliefs before I could get to him.He should voluntarily remove himself or be removed from church affiliation if he is found to be apostate. That is the duty of the counsel,to decide. Meanwhile the church will roll on as designed. 2
omni Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 This student would be a social entrepreneur. Howver if that student rasined 500 grand for the charity and pocketed 50 percent as a salary, what then?The red cross is an organization which is world wide, employing many people. John's mormonstories is john. Hard to convince people to give if much goes into the pocket of one man who runs the whole show. In the past, I had the impression that mormonstories was a hobby and not a business. Now it has become a cottege industry. Of which john made close to hundred grand. Hard not to see a conflict of interest in all this. Of course, I could make 200 grand in donations and take 45 percent of that as a salary. But is it legal? Is it ethical? Victimization can certainly be made into a business since we do live in a victimized society. Many want to see themselves as a victim...it sort of puts responsibilty away from them and onto to something else. However, there are genuine victims out there too. But should victimization be exploited for money and should people be told that they are victims when they do not feel like one? John's podcasts can certainly put such thougths into people's heads. It is win/win.I'm not sure why it matters how much he makes? He's always been transparent about what the donations would be used for and how much MS brings in. I'm surprised he's not bringing in more quite frankly with the number of listeners he has and the seemingly constant plea for donations. If this transparency changes or he starts claiming lack of donations will effect his listeners salvation then we'll have a problem.
rodheadlee Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 Funny there is no comment section for the article on John in the trib. Why do you suppose that is?
Storm Rider Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 I don't think it matters much how much he is paid as long as it is transparent to the public. This product is not something I find helpful although others seem to appreciate what he does and for them there seems to be a benefit. Is he the only source of such a benefit? I hope not and I would hope that others find a more complete, faith-promoting resource. I don't wish him ill, but I am not supportive of his activity and never have been. I guess it is more akin to a snake oil for every customer; if it works, then great, but if not then one should move on. I personally find him grating, but I realize that I am not everyone. Others recommend him and for those that find benefit then it should be all hands on deck pulling for the finish line where one no longer needs to listen to him because of the healing that should have taken place. However, if one finds themselves listening and then outside the Church of Jesus Christ, then one should be warned that this is not a resource for those who are seeking a fullness of truth. 2
ALarson Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 Funny there is no comment section for the article on John in the trib. Why do you suppose that is?There are comments, you just have to click on the link for them ("Join the Discussion"). There are over 1200 comments so far: http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2146441-156/mormon-facing-excommunication-makes-his-living#disqus_thread
Analytics Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) His repeated statement that his salary includes taxes and insurance (why does he have to include that since everyone has to pay taxes and if they want insurance that as well) suggests that he is trying to diminish the amount that he receives in others' eyes which in turn suggests discomfort with the double standard issue. I think he's trying to add perspective to it. If I worked at a company that paid me a salary of $90k a year, I would expect my total compensation package (e.g. salary, 401(k) matching, employer-paid health insurance, life insurance, dental insurance, disability insurance, etc.) to be worth a lot more than 90k. If I worked as an independent contractor and grossed $90k, I would have to pay all of that out of my own pocket--often on a tax-disadvantaged basis, in addition to paying the employer's portion of the payroll tax, which would be another 6.7% of my gross earnings. Grossing $90k in that manner would feel more like making something closer to $70k-$75k. The bigger point is that John Dehlin and The Open Stories Foundation voluntarily meet the absolute highest standards of financial transparency and should be congratulated for doing so. In contrast, the LDS Church and the charities it owns are as financially opaque as the law allows. If somebody has a problem with how much John makes off of his podcasts, I would think they would have a serious problem with the undisclosed-but-surely-much-higher income and benefit packages that General Authorities and mission presidents make. Edited February 7, 2015 by Analytics 2
Storm Rider Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 I think he's trying to add perspective to it. If I worked at a company that paid me a salary of $90k a year, I would expect my total compensation package (e.g. salary, 401(k) matching, employer-paid health insurance, life insurance, dental insurance, disability insurance, etc.) to be worth a lot more than 90k. If I worked as an independent contractor and grossed $90k, I would have to pay all of that out of my own pocket--often on a tax-disadvantaged basis, in addition to paying the employer's portion of the payroll tax, which would be another 6.7% of my gross earnings. In addition, I would have Grossing $90k in that manner would feel more like making something closer to $70k-$75k. The bigger point is that John Dehlin and The Open Stories Foundation voluntarily meet the absolute highest standards of financial transparency and should be congratulated for doing so. In contrast, the LDS Church and the charities it owns are as financially opaque as the law allows. If somebody has a problem with how much John makes off of his podcasts, I would think they would have a serious problem with the undisclosed-but-surely-much-higher income and benefit packages that General Authorities and mission presidents make. That is nice that you think it is the "absolute highest standards of financial transparency", but others may feel different regardless of your cheer leading for John-boy. I am not a fan nor have I ever been a fan. Although you are entitled to your opinion, it is just your opinion. I am sure that you are highly informed in all facets of financial reporting standards in the United States and have done a complete, comparative analysis of what Dehlin reports and what the horrid LDS Church reports and are more than capable of leading the rest of us to an enlightened conclusion, but all things being equal, I still am a hard-headed old bugger that will make his value judgments all by himself. 1
Analytics Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 That is nice that you think it is the "absolute highest standards of financial transparency", but others may feel different regardless of your cheer leading for John-boy. I am not a fan nor have I ever been a fan. Although you are entitled to your opinion, it is just your opinion. I am sure that you are highly informed in all facets of financial reporting standards in the United States and have done a complete, comparative analysis of what Dehlin reports and what the horrid LDS Church reports and are more than capable of leading the rest of us to an enlightened conclusion, but all things being equal, I still am a hard-headed old bugger that will make his value judgments all by himself. I'm not a fan of John Dehlin. I've listened to a grand total of 1/3rd of one podcast in my entire life, I've never sent the guy a dime, and in all likelihood never will. As two other examples, I'm not a fan of the Interpreter Foundation, and I'm not a fan of the Billy Graham Evangelical Association. However, I congratulate both of them for being financially transparent. Whether an organization meets "the highest standards of financial transparency" is something that accountants who specialize in such things can objectively measure—it isn't a matter of how you or I "feel" about it. It isn't a value judgment—it is a matter of objectively comparing an organization's financial transparency to well defined and established professional standards. 1
rockpond Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 That is nice that you think it is the "absolute highest standards of financial transparency", but others may feel different regardless of your cheer leading for John-boy. I am not a fan nor have I ever been a fan. Although you are entitled to your opinion, it is just your opinion. I am sure that you are highly informed in all facets of financial reporting standards in the United States and have done a complete, comparative analysis of what Dehlin reports and what the horrid LDS Church reports and are more than capable of leading the rest of us to an enlightened conclusion, but all things being equal, I still am a hard-headed old bugger that will make his value judgments all by himself.That's a lot of snark, Storm. Tell us how you really feel. Here's the thing... It isn't hard to analyze all that the LDS Church releases regarding its financials. But I assume you see the irony in this theme of the thread.
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