Dehlin's In The News? What?

[why me]

Even if 100,000 people gave 5 dollars, his income would be 500,000 dollars. Quite a sum of money and quite a business. Is he in it for the money? Possilby. Of course his interest would be to continue as a member. He would have more ways to get donations as a member. If he is exed, some of this money would dry up and then he would have to make a living without the donations coming in.

 

I would not wish to be his client for the simple reason he has changed his mind too often to show me stability. But that is only my personal opinion. Also, I think that he may just be a little influenced by his personal experiences and that is not a positive in my opinion. So, I don't think that john has a future with 'damaged' mormons. But that is only my personal opinion.

 

I just don't think that he has his feet firmly on the ground to be of help to people whose feet are also not on firm ground.

Edited February 6, 2015 by why me

[juliann]

This is my impression as well.  If he is excommunicated, that will totally marginalize him with LDS members.  There's no way in heck an LDS with a sincere faith crisis is going to go to an ex'd Mormon therapist for help.  Hopefully he can find success in helping others (it seems he is setting himself up to specialize in counseling LGBT Mormons?), but his role as a counselor for LDS who are struggling to keep the faith will probably quickly come to an end.

 

But who knows?  These are uncharted waters, and anything could happen.

 

Indeed, which is what makes it so darn interesting. In the latest article exposing his income...http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2146441-155/mormon-facing-excommunication-makes-his-living

 

In a year-end podcast, the charismatic host [John Dehlin] promised even more support for those "transitioning away from Mormonism," including interviews, podcasts, websites, workshops, radio/TV programs, books and more academic research. He offered to help listeners create "Cyber Wards" of like-minded friends and is opening his private counseling practice to help "progressive and post-Mormons."

 

Is there even anything new here?  There seems to be an expectation that these folks are needy enough they will pay for hourly counseling...and give him donations. This is so Utah centric it is mind boggling.  I'm trying to imagine being counseled because I am progressive in an area where you don't work or live around Mormons.

 

What I have to admit as finding particularly irksome is that Kate Kelly nastily accused Mormon feminists who didn't agree with her about ordination but got a salary from the church as selling out to maintain their jobs. Where is the outrage here? Does anyone really think he would jeopardize his salary by being supportive of the church teachings?  (And very funny how he thinks reminding people he has to pay insurance and taxes.... just like they also do...on his $90K salary makes it seem less. LOL)

[Buckeye]

I am trying to come up with an example of any dissenter ever exert overt influence after excommunication. Is there anyone? It seems to me that one needs an implied imprimatur from the church, i.e., membership, to maintain let alone grow. Even organizations, like RFM. They also had their day. Do they still hold the exMormon conferences?

 

...

 

James Strang's dissenting group had a significant influence for many years.

 

Emma Hale Smith's dissenting group has won legal battles, built a temple and many congregations, engages in missionary work, and holds annual conferences to this day.

 

Lorin Woolley and other polygamous dissenting groups have grown and remain a thorn despite 100+ years of efforts to stamp them out.

 

Denver Snuffer's group appears to have some momentum.

 

Perhaps Uncle Dale could provide a better count (I'm no expert), but I believe the number of active dissenting groups numbers in the dozens if not hundreds. Heck, my own LDS congregation meets only a mile away from a Rigdonite congregation.

[stemelbow]

Putting aside subjective definitions of "rich," the actual quote does not suggest that Dehlin is making 4 to 5 times $90,000 (or $360,000-$450,000), but rather 4 to 5 times whatever amount donors have canceled since news of his disciplinary council surfaced. So we can't do a real calculation because we don't know how much has been canceled. If the amount canceled is $10,000, then Dehlin is currently making $120,000-$130,000. If it's $20,000 canceled, then he's making $150,000-$170,000. And so forth.

That's fine. I meant to suggest it is possible with this surge he is getting as much as 4 or 5 times in donations. Although, it's true, we wouldn't now for sure. Maybe he'll re-report next year.

Either way, he said there's a surge in donations. That's interesting that the news of possible excommunication got him a surge. Maybe there's some commentary there on whose donating.

[Buckeye]

Even if 100,000 people gave 5 dollars, his income would be 500,000 dollars. ...

 

I rather doubt he has anything close to 100,000 donors. The LDS church itself probably has less than 100,000 donors in all but maybe 10 countries.

[stemelbow]

What I have to admit as finding particularly irksome is that Kate Kelly nastily accused Mormon feminists who didn't agree with her about ordination but got a salary from the church as selling out to maintain their jobs.

Ouch! She did?

Where is the outrage here? Does anyone really think he would jeopardize his salary by being supportive of the church teachings?  (And very funny how he thinks reminding people he has to pay insurance and taxes.... just like they also do...on his $90K salary makes it seem less. LOL)

Yeah I thought the, I had to pay insurances and taxes was funny too.

[Buckeye]

This is my impression as well.  If he is excommunicated, that will totally marginalize him with LDS members.  There's no way in heck an LDS with a sincere faith crisis is going to go to an ex'd Mormon therapist for help.  Hopefully he can find success in helping others (it seems he is setting himself up to specialize in counseling LGBT Mormons?), but his role as a counselor for LDS who are struggling to keep the faith will probably quickly come to an end.

 

But who knows?  These are uncharted waters, and anything could happen.

 

Obviously, members wanting to find a way to stay will likely seek counseling somewhere else (although John would stay he respects that decision and would help them too). But I wouldn't doubt that there is a significant group of people in the Wasatch front who want a counselor to help them as they transition away from Mormonism (or at least activity in the church). The therapists I know who get referrals from bishops and active LDS families certainly aren't getting rich off the work. Strictly speaking to money, I can't see how John will do any worse working the other side of the pasture.

[stemelbow]

I rather doubt he has anything close to 100,000 donors. The LDS church itself probably has less than 100,000 donors in all but maybe 10 countries.

I don't know how to access the "public financial records", but if we could we might get more of a hint on this.

[Buckeye]

I don't know how to access the "public financial records", but if we could we might get more of a hint on this.

 

The church does publish membership data. This wiki contains a chart of church-published membership data by country as of 2013: http://www.mormonwiki.com/Membership_Statistics

 

According to the church's information, there are only 21 countries with over 100,000 members period. If we take a conservative estimate that at most 1/3 of members in any country make donations, that means there are only 7 countries with more than 100,000 donating members: Argentina, Peru, Chile, Philippines, Brazil, Mexico, USA.

[stemelbow]

The church does publish membership data. This wiki contains a chart of church-published membership data by country as of 2013: http://www.mormonwiki.com/Membership_Statistics

 

According to the church's information, there are only 21 countries with over 100,000 members period. If we take a conservative estimate that at most 1/3 of members in any country make donations, that means there are only 7 countries with more than 100,000 donating members: Argentina, Peru, Chile, Philippines, Brazil, Mexico, USA.

Sorry. I meant Dehlin's public records. I was pretty much on board with what you had said.

[juliann]

James Strang's dissenting group had a significant influence for many years.

 

Emma Hale Smith's dissenting group has won legal battles, built a temple and many congregations, engages in missionary work, and holds annual conferences to this day.

 

Lorin Woolley and other polygamous dissenting groups have grown and remain a thorn despite 100+ years of efforts to stamp them out.

 

Denver Snuffer's group appears to have some momentum.

 

Perhaps Uncle Dale could provide a better count (I'm no expert), but I believe the number of active dissenting groups numbers in the dozens if not hundreds. Heck, my own LDS congregation meets only a mile away from a Rigdonite congregation.

Let's keep it in the last two centuries for relevancy.   No one is going to go to fundamentalist polygamist groups to understand the modern Mormon church any time soon.

 

 

Ouch! She did?

 

In a response to a Mormon Stories podcast with Nylan, Fiona Givens, Margaret Young...maybe Valerie Hudson? She called them "so-called feminists," and narcissists along with the selling out their souls (not in those words) to the church accusation. And that is just what I remember. As I recall, she was livid that she had not been put on the panel to give the other side. Reassuring her that she could have her own podcast didn't assuage her anger.

[Scott Lloyd]

No "Kinda like" about it.  He's feathering his nest for the post-Mormon ministry gig.  And besides graduate school and running a non-profit is expensive when you are trying to raise a family.

The "non-profit" thing is doing quite well for him according to figures I saw not too long ago (don't remember precisely where). I don't know what his overhead would be, but I don't doubt he pays himself a comfortable salary.

[rockpond]

Will donations increase because people like the idea of his work getting people out of the Church? Kinda like the counter-cult movement?

 

That certainly was not why I donated to MS.

[rockpond]

Any money that he receives he will need to be careful what he does with the money. The tax authorities will be interested in this money. Of course, if I put myself in john's shoes, my head may be becoming a balloon because of my seeming importance. I would also be most likely having a huge ego. I wonder what his brother Joel thinks of it all. Joel is an active member of the church and also chief information officer for the church.

 

I just hope it will all be over on sunday and we can all move on to more interesting things.

 

Donations flow into the Open Stories Foundation (a non-profit organization).  Open Stories then pays him a salary.

 

Financial statements are all posted here:  http://openstoriesfoundation.org/finances/

[rockpond]

I am trying to come up with an example of any dissenter ever exert overt influence after excommunication. Is there anyone? It seems to me that one needs an implied imprimatur from the church, i.e., membership, to maintain let alone grow. Even organizations, like RFM. They also had their day. Do they still hold the exMormon conferences?

 

Maybe Dehlin has built an infrastructure that differs from those before him, but it still would be dependent on a steady supply of new supporters. That is what the real battle is over. FM gets enough emails to know that Dehlin's initial lure for many is that he is seen as a Mormon in good standing. He so needs that...it isn't nevermos who are going to be swelling his ranks. And most exmos just wander off and have happy lives. So he also has to work to keep what he currently has...many of whom are supporting his ability to bring others to their side.

 

I have no doubt that there is a great swell of support right now. But this is also Dehlin's last hurrah if it ends as he predicts.  I think this is far more interesting as a grand sociological experiment rather than anything else.

 

The Open Stories Foundation supports a number of LDS themed podcasts.  Some of those are run by members in good standing.  Some are not.  I don't see OSF, MS, or the other podcasts disappearing anytime soon.  So I wouldn't call this his "last hurrah" but I do think that newly questioning members will be less likely to see an excommunicated Mormon as someone to go to for information/support.

[stemelbow]

Donations flow into the Open Stories Foundation (a non-profit organization).  Open Stories then pays him a salary.

 

Financial statements are all posted here:  http://openstoriesfoundation.org/finances/

So in 2013 the total income was 134,000. The total expense was 156,000? Why not just pay him 22,000 less so they don't run into the negative?

Yeah...I don't evaluate this stuff. Don't ask me to be your auditor, or accountant.

Edited February 6, 2015 by stemelbow

[stemelbow]

That certainly was not why I donated to MS.

Good to know. So we have at least one active LDS who has donated. I wonder how many more and of those I wonder who if any will stop donated once he's ex'd.

[rockpond]

Putting aside subjective definitions of "rich," the actual quote does not suggest that Dehlin is making 4 to 5 times $90,000 (or $360,000-$450,000), but rather 4 to 5 times whatever amount donors have canceled since news of his disciplinary council surfaced. So we can't do a real calculation because we don't know how much has been canceled. If the amount canceled is $10,000, then Dehlin is currently making $120,000-$130,000. If it's $20,000 canceled, then he's making $150,000-$170,000. And so forth.

 

Regardless of what was donated, the OSF board would determine any changes to Dehlin's salary.

[rockpond]

Good to know. So we have at least one active LDS who has donated. I wonder how many more and of those I wonder who if any will stop donated once he's ex'd.

 

It's been a while since I made a contribution but I can tell you that my contributions are based on the content of the podcasts and not Dehlin's membership status.

 

And for those who doubt, yes I am an active member.

[Michael13365]

As a non-Mormon, I found his podcasts to be a very interesting window into a way of life and thinking of which I had no personal experience. I was impressed by the range of very intelligent guests who could draw spiritual riches from Joseph's teachings while still looking at the historical record with complete honesty. D.Michael Quinn was particularly impressive in that he never lost his faith while still exploring the deep sources of folk magic among the New Englanders who formed the heart of the early church. I found it sad that people like Dr. Quinn, and now Mr. Dehlin, are pushed out of a church that they clearly love.

As a historical novelist specializing in upstate New York, I had long been fascinated by the religious enthusiasm of the early nineteenth century in my native region, even if it took me decades before I was finally able to depict the remarkable and still inspiring figure of Joseph Smith. I can only hope that their fellow Mormons will be kind to people like John Dehlin, whose love for his culture and faith is so evident to one who does not share it. God bless him.

http://www.amazon.com/True-History-Joseph-Smith-ebook/dp/B00SSBDB4U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423144958&sr=8-1&keywords=The+true+history+of+joseph+smith

[juliann]

Donations flow into the Open Stories Foundation (a non-profit organization).  Open Stories then pays him a salary.

 

Financial statements are all posted here:  http://openstoriesfoundation.org/finances/

 

But that is only a portion of the $90K.  Does he have independent ventures?

 

The Open Stories Foundation supports a number of LDS themed podcasts.  Some of those are run by members in good standing.  Some are not.  I don't see OSF, MS, or the other podcasts disappearing anytime soon.  So I wouldn't call this his "last hurrah" but I do think that newly questioning members will be less likely to see an excommunicated Mormon as someone to go to for information/support.

 

He will be losing the nonstop media coverage that generates the awareness (and anger) that generates the donations. Have you seen a big spread on Kelly since she was exed? What this boils down to is that the vast majority of Mormons have never heard of him even now. He needs media to maintain momentum. 

[toon]

But Ex-LDS have that extra 10% laying around just looking for a good cause.  This could be more lucrative than we know.

 

But without the church, what's to keep one from spending that extra 10% on booze and women (or men).

[Brian 2.0]

It seems the 90K isn't completely accurate as a yearly salary.  That includes an amount left over from previous years:

 

John Dehlin’s total compensation for his work performed in 2013 as an independent contractor for Mormon Stories was $56,225.95.  In addition, when John converted from a full time employee to an independent contractor in 2012, there was an additional $33,347.76  still being held in savings that had been donated to Mormon Stories, but had been held in reserve.  In 2013 the OSF board voted to pay out these funds to John since he had earned them in previous years.

 

http://openstoriesfoundation.org/finances/

 

56K a year for the amount of man-hours he's putting into his company does not seem excessive to me.

[Brian 2.0]

Does this mean that he is making more money now than any of the Brethren?

 

Do we know what the brethren made?

[Scott Lloyd]

It seems the 90K isn't completely accurate as a yearly salary.  That includes an amount left over from previous years:

 

 

http://openstoriesfoundation.org/finances/

 

56K a year for the amount of man-hours he's putting into his company does not seem excessive to me.

It's a sweet deal when your hobby becomes your gig.

(A Nashville songwriter expressed himself to me in those words on one occasion.)