Use Of The Urim And Thummim In Translating The Book Of Mormon

[california boy]

I have a question promped by one of the other threads.  I remember growing up being told that Joseph Smith received the urim and thummim along with the gold plates and that he sometimes used the urim and thummim to transilate.  Is this still being taught?  Was it ever taught?  Was it related to the peep stone story of translating?  Any thoughts? 

[rongo]

I think the use of the word "taught" in our discussions about the Church is interesting. Certainly, Joseph receiving the U&T with the plates is in the History of the Church, JSH, etc., but the Church seems to me in the last couple of decades or so to go out of its way in talks, magazine material, etc. to de-emphasize things that smack of the supernatural or "weirdness" to modern secular culture. By "de-emphasize," I mean simply not bring it up. So, it's still "taught" in the sense that it's still in official church records (which few read anymore) and hasn't been disavowed, but not really in an "active verb" sense of "teaches."

 

The seer stone is a different thing altogether. I know that pro-Church defenders point to Elder Nelson citing David Whitmer's description of the seer stone in a 1992 Ensign article to say "See! We don't hide from mention of it," but that was a long time ago, and it is really the only mention people give from general authorities. I think that the modern Church avoids mention of it for the above-mentioned reason (it seems supernatural or weird to modern secular society). 

 

I actually gave a ward conference talk once that discussed the Canadian Copyright incident and the anguish of those who struggled with a "failed" prophecy through the seer stone, but my ward was a lot more exposed to (and inoculated by) apologetic topics and Church history beyond correlated manuals than most.

Edited January 31, 2015 by rongo

[Coreyb]

I think the use of the word "taught" in our discussions about the Church is interesting. Certainly, Joseph receiving the U&T with the plates is in the History of the Church, JSH, etc., but the Church seems to me in the last couple of decades or so to go out of its way in talks, magazine material, etc. to de-emphasize things that smack of the supernatural or "weirdness" to modern secular culture. By "de-emphasize," I mean simply not bring it up. So, it's still "taught" in the sense that it's still in official church records (which few read anymore) and hasn't been disavowed, but not really in an "active verb" sense of "teaches."

 

The seer stone is a different thing altogether. I know that pro-Church defenders point to Elder Nelson citing David Whitmer's description of the seer stone in a 1992 Ensign article to say "See! We don't hide from mention of it," but that was a long time ago, and it is really the only mention people give from general authorities. I think that the modern Church avoids mention of it for the above-mentioned reason (it seems supernatural or weird to modern secular society). 

 

I actually gave a ward conference talk once that discussed the Canadian Copyright incident and the anguish of those who struggled with a "failed" prophecy through the seer stone, but my ward was a lot more exposed to (and inoculated by) apologetic topics and Church history beyond correlated manuals than most.

I believe Neal A Maxwell mentioned the seer stone in a talk or two. Maybe, A Choice Seer

[Kenngo1969]

I think the Book of Mormon is a marvel ... a miracle.  And I think it can and does have a tremendous impact on the lives of those who take it seriously.  On the other hand, I think that the Adversary along with the book's detractors score a great victory every time they are able to shift the focus of those who otherwise might be inclined to take it seriously from the what (the book's contents) to the how of the particulars of its coming forth.  Call me naive, but I think if God wanted to reveal holy writ to someone while the person to whom He reveals it is standing on his head, rubbing his tummy counterclockwise, and clucking like a chicken, He could do that. Meanwhile, skeptics would discount even the possibility of an Omnipotent God, let alone His power to reveal such things to His children while those children are "otherwise occupied" in such a manner.

 

Rock, hat, Urim, Thummim, seer stone, peep stone, yada, yada, yada ...  Even after everyone in the world has had his fill of looking "through a glass, darkly" at purported Book of Mormon translation methods, as Elder Jeffrey R. Holland said a few years ago (paraphrasing), anyone who's going to leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must crawl over, or under, or around the Book of Mormon in order to do it.  Even if and when they make it, that doesn't change the book's marvelous, miraculous character.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[ALarson]

 

I have a question promped by one of the other threads.  I remember growing up being told that Joseph Smith received the urim and thummim along with the gold plates and that he sometimes used the urim and thummim to transilate.  Is this still being taught?  Was it ever taught?  Was it related to the peep stone story of translating?  Any thoughts? 

 

I've read that the words "Urim & Thummim" weren't used until after 1833.  They weren't in the first edition of the Book of Commandments but were added to the 1835 edition.

 

Here's more on how these terms came to be associated with the translation tools/stones:  

 

It is notable that the term 'Urim and Thummi' is not found in the Book of Mormon and was never used by Joseph Smith with reference to producing the Book of Mormon until after 1833. In that year, a close associate of Smith, W.W. Phelps, speculated that the ancient Nephite interpreters mentioned in the Book of Mormon and by Joseph Smith might be the Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament. Phelps wrote in the LDS publication The Evening and Morning Star (Jan. 1833) that the Book of Mormon had been translated, 'through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles (known perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim). Phelps words, 'known perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummin' show that it was merely speculation on his part that associated Josephs magic seer stone with the biblical Urim and Thummim. 

Phelps' speculation gained quick popularity to the point where LDS writers used the term Urim and Thummim to refer to both the mystical interpreters Joseph Smith said were with the gold plates, and to the seer stone Joseph placed in his hat while dictating the Book of Mormon. As a result, many LDS writings used the term Urim and Thummim synonymously for seer stone.

 

Here's a quote by Joseph Fielding Smith that shows the confusion at times:

 

'The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.'"

Edited February 1, 2015 by ALarson

[cinepro]

 

I have a question promped by one of the other threads.  I remember growing up being told that Joseph Smith received the urim and thummim along with the gold plates and that he sometimes used the urim and thummim to transilate.  Is this still being taught?  Was it ever taught?  Was it related to the peep stone story of translating?  Any thoughts? 

 

 

Yes, it was taught.  This picture is from the Church's Book of Mormon Reader from the late 1970s:

 

[Calm]

He apparently tried to use them for something as he was able to discover they were very uncomfortable for him to use, iirc the bow kept the stones too far apart for his face, he got headaches using them.

If someone needs a source let me know.

[california boy]

I've read that the words "Urim & Thummim" weren't used until after 1833.  They weren't in the first edition of the Book of Commandments but were added to the 1835 edition.

 

Here's more on how these terms came to be associated with the translation tools/stones:  

 

It is notable that the term 'Urim and Thummi' is not found in the Book of Mormon and was never used by Joseph Smith with reference to producing the Book of Mormon until after 1833. In that year, a close associate of Smith, W.W. Phelps, speculated that the ancient Nephite interpreters mentioned in the Book of Mormon and by Joseph Smith might be the Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament. Phelps wrote in the LDS publication The Evening and Morning Star (Jan. 1833) that the Book of Mormon had been translated, 'through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles (known perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim). Phelps words, 'known perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummin' show that it was merely speculation on his part that associated Josephs magic seer stone with the biblical Urim and Thummim. 

Phelps' speculation gained quick popularity to the point where LDS writers used the term Urim and Thummim to refer to both the mystical interpreters Joseph Smith said were with the gold plates, and to the seer stone Joseph placed in his hat while dictating the Book of Mormon. As a result, many LDS writings used the term Urim and Thummim synonymously for seer stone.

 

Here's a quote by Joseph Fielding Smith that shows the confusion at times:

 

'The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.'"

Wow.  Very interesting.  I had not heard of how that all came about.  I wonder if any prophet since Joseph Smith has ever spent any time with the seer stone.  Does the church have the Urim and Thummim?  Or was it returned with the plates?

[theplains]

'The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.'"

 

Is viewing this seer stone restricted to a select few in the LDS Church or is the story of its possession

by the church an urban legend?  Or was it conveniently taken back to heaven like the plates?

 

It's fortunate that fragments of the New Testament writings in Greek are available for us.

http://www.compellingtruth.org/original-Bible.html

 

Thanks,

Jim

[california boy]

He apparently tried to use them for something as he was able to discover they were very uncomfortable for him to use, iirc the bow kept the stones too far apart for his face, he got headaches using them.

If someone needs a source let me know.

I would love to have a source if you have it.  I have never heard about the headache thing.  Was the seer stone used as a replacement then?  Where did it come from?  Do you know?  

 

I know that Hiram Page also had seer stone and was receiving visions evidently from Satan.  Does anyone know what happened to that one?  Were seer stones something that was well known during that time period or is it unique to Mormon history?  

[Sevenbak]

And then of course there's Joseph in ancient Egypt using a shiny silver cup as a type of Urim and Thummim.  While the biblical text refers to it as divination, we know he was a righteous seer, so despite Mosaic law against divination, God's anointed used a type of it and were accepted.

 

Seer or peep stones, Urim and Thummims, silver cups... methinks it mattereth not.   I rather think the gifts of the seer just need a proper channel.  A seer is greater than a prophet.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Sevenbak

[california boy]

Yes, it was taught.  This picture is from the Church's Book of Mormon Reader from the late 1970s:

 

 

I do remember those illustrated books and that drawing.  I think it was the only time I had ever seen a representation of Joseph Smith with the Urim and Thummim.

[Uncle Dale]

 

I have a question promped by one of the other threads.  I remember growing up being told that Joseph Smith received the urim and thummim along with the gold plates and that he sometimes used the urim and thummim to transilate.  Is this still being taught?  Was it ever taught?  Was it related to the peep stone story of translating?  Any thoughts? 

 

 

 

I don't know about the rest of the contributors here, but I was taught

that it was A MATTER OF FACT that Joseph Smith, Jr. was given the

ancient Israelite U&T -- the same as had been used by the High Priests

of the Jerusalem Temple and their predecessors, the prophets.

 

Furthermore, that Father Lehi brought this sacred instrument to

North America, where it was attached to a Nephite breastplate, and

that numerous members of the Smith family, their neighbors, etc.

both saw and examined this sacred relic.

 

 

In fact, I was told that Patriarch of the Church, William Smith, described

the U&T and breastplate in precise detail, from personal examination,

when the golden plates were first brought into the Smith home in New York,

and that there was no doubt that his testimony was fully true and reliable.

 

Then I asked how such a large item could fit into the small stone box

reportedly discovered atop Cumorah, (along with the sword of Laban,

sealed and unsealed plates, a liahona, and who-knows-what-all-else)?

 

I tend to think that Bro. William Smith's testimony was not always truthful...

 

UD

[california boy]

I thought I was taught that the breastplate was part of the Urim and Thummim.  I remember being told that it had 12 gemstones on it representing the 12 tribes of israel.  Has anyone else ever heard this?

[strappinglad]

The sword of Laban and the liahona and whatever else were not in the stone box. They were seen in vision as inside Cumorah ( pick your hill). I too have read that the Nephite interpreters were too large for Joseph to use comfortably.

[Calm]

This doesn't have the sources attached for some reason, I will look for them.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Question:_What_are_the_Nephite_interpreters%3F

Edited February 1, 2015 by calmoriah

[Sevenbak]

I don't know about the rest of the contributors here, but I was taught

that it was A MATTER OF FACT that Joseph Smith, Jr. was given the

ancient Israelite U&T -- the same as had been used by the High Priests

of the Jerusalem Temple and their predecessors, the prophets.

 

Furthermore, that Father Lehi brought this sacred instrument to

North America, where it was attached to a Nephite breastplate, and

that numerous members of the Smith family, their neighbors, etc.

both saw and examined this sacred relic.

 

 

In fact, I was told that Patriarch of the Church, William Smith, described

the U&T and breastplate in precise detail, from personal examination,

when the golden plates were first brought into the Smith home in New York,

and that there was no doubt that his testimony was fully true and reliable.

 

Then I asked how such a large item could fit into the small stone box

reportedly discovered atop Cumorah, (along with the sword of Laban,

sealed and unsealed plates, a liahona, and who-knows-what-all-else)?

 

I tend to think that Bro. William Smith's testimony was not always truthful...

 

UD

 

Where do you get the description of such a large breastplate, so Romanesque?  Lucy Mack Smith handled both the breastplate and Urim and Thummim and described it in the History of the Church as being much smaller, only going to mid stomach.  

 

It was concave on one side and convex on the other, and extended from the neck downwards as far as the center of the stomach of a man of extraordinary size. It had four straps of the same material for the purpose of fastening it to the breast, two of which ran back to go over the shoulders, and the other two were designed to fasten to the hips. They were just the width of two of my fingers (for I measured them), and they had holes in the end of them to be convenient in fastening. 

The whole plate was worth at least five hundred dollars. After I had examined it, Joseph placed it in the chest with the Urim and Thummim. (History of Joseph Smith, Revised and Enhanced)

[Calm]

The church website article summarises what is known relatively well, IMO, with sources:

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

[Sevenbak]

This is a more accurate visual portrayal of the breastplate and U&T as described by Lucy Mack Smith.

 

[Calm]

It was William who said the spectacles were too large and his eyes would get tired (my apologies for adding the headache, I was projecting what happens to me most likely)

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-spectacles-the-stone-the-hat-and-the-book-a-twenty-first-century-believers-view-of-the-book-of-mormon-translation/

[Calm]

Sevenbak, where is that from?

[Coreyb]

Is viewing this seer stone restricted to a select few in the LDS Church or is the story of its possession

by the church an urban legend?  Or was it conveniently taken back to heaven like the plates?

 

It's fortunate that fragments of the New Testament writings in Greek are available for us.

http://www.compellingtruth.org/original-Bible.html

 

Thanks,

Jim

There are photos of both of Joseph's seer stones. According to Michael Quinn at least on of them is in the first presidency vault. Pretty sure they are real

[JAHS]

Here is an article by a Reverend Truman Coe as it appeared in the 11 August 1836 issue of The Ohio Observer (Hudson),

 

"The manner of translation was as wonderful as the discovery. By putting his finger on one of the characters and imploring divine aid, then looking through the Urim and Thummin, he would see the import written in plain English on a screen placed before him. After delivering this to his emanuensi, he would again proceed in the same manner and obtain the meaning of the next character, and so on till he came to a part of the plates which were sealed up, and there was commanded to desist: and he says he has a promise from God that in due time he will enable him to translate the remainder."

 

 

David Whitmer - "The Urim and Thummim were two white stones, each of them cased in as spectacles are, in a kind of silver casing, but the bow between the stones was more heavy, and longer apart between the stones, than we usually find in spectacles. Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, Emma, and my brother John each at different times wrote for Joseph as he translated."

 

Joseph Smith said he used the Urim and Thummim for other revelations: 

 

"A difference of opinion arising between us about the account of John the apostle, mentioned in the New Testament (John c. xxi. v. 22.), whether he died or whether he continued, we mutually agreed to settle it by the Urim and Thummin, and the following is the word which we received."

 

A Revelation was then given to Joseph Smith, and Oliver Cowdery, in Harmony, Pennsylvania, April, 1829, about the apostle John.

 

"Smith said that after translating the Book of Mormon, he returned the plates and the Urim and Thummim to the angel, whom he identified as the resurrected Moroni. Smith reportedly told Orson Pratt that the Lord gave him the Urim and Thummim when he was an inexperienced translator but that as he grew in experience, he no longer needed such assistance."  ("Two Days' Meeting at Brigham City," Millennial Star 36 [1874]:498–99).)

[Coreyb]

Why is the breastplate always drawn like some Greek or Roman bronze war armor instead of something more akin to the breastplate of a Israelite high priest with twelve stones?

[california boy]

The church website article summarises what is known relatively well, IMO, with sources:

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

 

Thanks that was helpful.  I am a bit confused about one kinda technical thing.  Is the breast plate a part of the Urim and Thummim or is is separate and just happened to be with the Urim and Thummim?  If so, does anyone have any idea what the breast plate was for?  I ask this because of two references.

 

From the church web site

The Book of Mormon referred to this instrument, together with its breastplate, as a device “kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages.”

 

 

 

And from Lucy Mack Smiths description

After I had examined it, Joseph placed it in the chest ( the breastplate) with the Urim and Thummim.