Use Of The Urim And Thummim In Translating The Book Of Mormon

[Sevenbak]

It was William who said the spectacles were too large and his eyes would get tired (my apologies for adding the headache, I was projecting what happens to me most likely)

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-spectacles-the-stone-the-hat-and-the-book-a-twenty-first-century-believers-view-of-the-book-of-mormon-translation/

David Whitmer verifies William's statement about their size.  He saw them as part of the angelic visit to the 3 witnesses.     "they looked like whitish stones put in the rim of a bow--looked like spectacles, only much larger."  

 

Those Jaredites were mighty men indeed!  ;-)

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak, where is that from?

 

"A 21st-century reconstruction of the golden plates and the Urim and Thummim connected to a breastplate, based on a description given by Joseph Smith's mother."  Wiki- "Seer Stone".  

 

​Apparently, that rendition was built for some reason or another, but I agree, it more closely matches Lucy's description.

[Uncle Dale]

Where do you get the description of such a large breastplate...

 

From the official RLDS Sunday school manuals -- c. 1922.

They were still being reprinted and used when I was a young

fellow. If the breastplate was meant to protect a Nephite in

battle -- then it seems about the proper size -- on a 6ft 2in

Joseph Smith, it would not reach as far down as his navel...

 

 

UD

[Calm]

I got the impression the breast plate was for the purpose of holding the spectacles, both in use and when not in use (see the pocket in the reconstruction)...though somewhere I remember a source that said or suggested the spectacles somehow folded in half or at least the stone part could be laid on top of each other.

Edited February 1, 2015 by calmoriah

[Uncle Dale]

Why is the breastplate always drawn like some Greek or Roman bronze war armor instead of something more akin to the breastplate of a Israelite high priest with twelve stones?

 

 

Brother Dewey Farnsworth used to teach that metallic breastplates

from preColumbian America were good evidence for Israelite Nephites.

 

 

UD

Edited February 1, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Sevenbak]

Why is the breastplate always drawn like some Greek or Roman bronze war armor instead of something more akin to the breastplate of a Israelite high priest with twelve stones?

 

Or, as I tend to gravitate toward, somewhat more in line with ancient native american copper breastplates.    The headplates are even cooler.

 

[Sevenbak]

From the official RLDS Sunday school manuals -- c. 1922.

They were still being reprinted and used when I was a young

fellow. If the breastplate was meant to protect a Nephite in

battle -- then it seems about the proper size -- on a 6ft 2in

Joseph Smith, it would not reach as far down as his navel...

 

 

UD

That's clearly a leather war covering, not a metal breastplate, per se.  Look at the snaps ol' Arnold included.

[Uncle Dale]

That's clearly a leather war covering, not a metal breastplate, per se.  Look at the snaps ol' Arnold included.

 

Guess Helaman couldn't afford the high-class metal ones,

until after he was promoted to Lieutenant-General.

 

Nice war steed, though...

 

UD

[Kenngo1969]

He apparently tried to use them for something as he was able to discover they were very uncomfortable for him to use, iirc the bow kept the stones too far apart for his face, he got headaches using them.

If someone needs a source let me know.

You'd think God could get the prescription right.

 

(Sorry;   Couldn't resist!)

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't know about the rest of the contributors here, but I was taught

that it was A MATTER OF FACT that Joseph Smith, Jr. was given the

ancient Israelite U&T -- the same as had been used by the High Priests

of the Jerusalem Temple and their predecessors, the prophets.

The Nephite "interpreters" are most assuredly not the "ancient Israelite Urim & Thummim," and the Book of Mormon never uses that term.  As explained above, the terminology of U&T was first used by William W. Phelps by analogy.  The Nephite "interpreters" were handed down by the Jaredites, eventually coming into the possession of King Mosiah..

 

Furthermore, that Father Lehi brought this sacred instrument to

North America, where it was attached to a Nephite breastplate, and

that numerous members of the Smith family, their neighbors, etc.

both saw and examined this sacred relic.

 

 

In fact, I was told that Patriarch of the Church, William Smith, described

the U&T and breastplate in precise detail, from personal examination,

when the golden plates were first brought into the Smith home in New York,

and that there was no doubt that his testimony was fully true and reliable.

 

Then I asked how such a large item could fit into the small stone box

reportedly discovered atop Cumorah, (along with the sword of Laban,

sealed and unsealed plates, a liahona, and who-knows-what-all-else)?

..................................................................

Nowhere does it say that the stone box was small, and, based on the contents (plates, breastplate, urim & thummim, etc.), it had to be rather large.  Indeed, just to move the flat covering stone off, Joseph had to get a lever.  You were taught folklore, which is not unusual.  See my own description and sources in “Translation of Languages (hermēniea glōssōn I Cor 12:10),” (Independence, MO, June 1980), online 2010 at https://www.scribd.com/doc/46307834/Translation-of-Languages .

[Calm]

You'd think God could get the prescription right.

 

(Sorry;   Couldn't resist!)

You and I think too much alike at times.

[Sevenbak]

You'd think God could get the prescription right.

 

(Sorry;   Couldn't resist!)

Maybe ol' Joe Smith didn't have as big a head as most of his detractors say he did... 

[Calm]

 

Nowhere does it say that the stone box was small, and, based on the contents (plates, breastplate, urim & thummim, etc.), it had to be rather large.  Indeed, just to move the flat covering stone off, Joseph had to get a lever. 

 

 

Given that the box itself was made out of slabs, it could have been quite large:

 

The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.

 

[Calm]

Maybe ol' Joe Smith didn't have as big a head as most of his detractors say he did... 

We should have measurements from the death mask and all the artists that have been working on making the most accurate picture of him.

 

Maybe he just had beady, too close together eyes like a typical con man.

 

This site looks like it has the measurements:

 

http://www.josephsmithimage.com

Edited February 1, 2015 by calmoriah

[Uncle Dale]

Given that the box itself was made out of slabs, it could have been quite large:

 

David Whitmer mentioned that he visited Cumorah and that one of

the stones of the box had slid down the hillside (perhaps during a

rainstorm).

 

Another recollection said the stone ended up in the front yard of

a fellow living in Shortsville (I think it was).

 

Pity that nobody ever took the trouble to measure and report the size.

 

UD

[Uncle Dale]

...

 

Maybe he just had beady, too close together eyes like a typical con man.

 

 

Forgive me -- I tried to fight off the urge...

 

Honestly, I did.

 

 

 

UD

[danielwoods]

In the spirit of inquiry, what's the precedent for angels giving and taking back artifacts? 

[Uncle Dale]

In the spirit of inquiry, what's the precedent for angels giving and taking back artifacts? 

 

About the close of the twelfth century appeared among the mendicant friars that ominous work, which, under the title of "The Everlasting Gospel,"

struck terror into the Latin hierarchy. It was affirmed that an angel had brought it from heaven, engraven on copper plates, and had given it to a priest

called Cyril, who delivered it to the Abbot Joachim. ... "The Everlasting Gospel" was declared by its adherents to have supplanted the New Testament,

as that had supplanted the Old -- these three books constituting a threefold revelation...Under the title of Celestine V. a visionary hermit had been

raised to the papacy -- visionary, for Peter Morrone (such was his name) had long been indulged in apparitions of angels...

 

 

UD

[ALarson]

IIRC, the Urim and Thummim (with the specticles and breast plate, NOT the seer stones) were only used to translate the first (and lost) 116 pages.  After that, Joseph used just the seer stone in the hat.

 

I'll have to read up on this topic again, but that's what I recall.  Does anyone have more info on this?

Edited February 1, 2015 by ALarson

[ALarson]

Here are some quotes.

 

From Emma:

“Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he [my husband] used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color.”

 

If the above is true, then the Book of Mormon we have today was translated entirely from the seer stone (later referred to as the Urim and Thummim).  Are there any statements from eyewitnesses that saw Joseph Smith using the spectacles and breast plate after he translated the lost 116 pages?

 

Here are some statements by eyewitnesses:

Emma:

"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."

 

 

David Whitmer:

"By fervent prayer and by otherwise humbling himself, the prophet, however, again found favor, and was presented with a strange, oval-shaped, chocolate-colored stone, about the size of an egg, only more flat, which, it was promised should serve the same purpose as the missing urim and thummim. ... With this stone all the present Book of Mormon was translated."

 

 

David Whitmer again:

"I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

 

 

Martin Harris:

"By aid of the Seer Stone, sentences would appear and were read by the prophet and written by martin, and when finished he would say 'written' and if correctly written, that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."

 

 

Michael Morse (Emma's brother-in-law):

"When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon, he, (Morse), had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes - Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."

 

Edited February 1, 2015 by ALarson

[Calm]

The interpreters were taken away with the plates when the pages were lost.  I can't remember if they were ever returned, I am thinking perhaps not save when the angel appeared to the three witnesses.

 

The Interpreter article I linked to probably has this info in it, at least I remember it being there but I may be confusing it with another one I read.

Edited February 1, 2015 by calmoriah

[california boy]

Here are some quotes.

 

From Emma:

If the above is true, then the Book of Mormon we have today was translated entirely from the seer stone (later referred to as the Urim and Thummim).  Are there any statements from eyewitnesses that saw Joseph Smith using the spectacles and breast plate after he translated the lost 116 pages?

 

Here are some statements by eyewitnesses:

Emma:

 

David Whitmer:

 

David Whitmer again:

 

Martin Harris:

 

Michael Morse (Emma's brother-in-law):

 

Are these witnesses saying that none of the gold plates were even used for the entire Book of Mormon as we have it today??  If so, what was the point of making gold plates.

[Calm]

Are these witnesses saying that none of the gold plates were even used for the entire Book of Mormon as we have it today?? If so, what was the point of making gold plates.

For the use of the Nephites themselves, for Joseph to gain more confidence that his revelations came from somewhere besides wishful thinking perhaps.

As a future witness perhaps....

Gave Mormon and Moroni something to do so they wouldn't wallow in depression about the state of their people.

Edited February 1, 2015 by calmoriah

[Uncle Dale]

.

a visionary hermit had beenraised to the papacy -- visionary, for Peter Morrone

(such was his name) had long been indulged in apparitions of angels...

 

 

Anybody here know enough Italian to say how this guy's name was pronounced?

 

Moron-aye?

Moron-eee?

Moron-eye?

 

If the latter pronuncation is closest to the Italian, then I suppose we might say

that the metal plates containing the fulness of the everlasting gospel were

returned to angelic keeping in the days of Pope Moroni...

 

Would make for an interesting topic for discussion during a tour of the Vatican.

 

UD

[danielwoods]

About the close of the twelfth century appeared among the mendicant friars that ominous work, which, under the title of "The Everlasting Gospel,"

struck terror into the Latin hierarchy. It was affirmed that an angel had brought it from heaven, engraven on copper plates, and had given it to a priest

called Cyril, who delivered it to the Abbot Joachim. ... "The Everlasting Gospel" was declared by its adherents to have supplanted the New Testament,

as that had supplanted the Old -- these three books constituting a threefold revelation...Under the title of Celestine V. a visionary hermit had been

raised to the papacy -- visionary, for Peter Morrone (such was his name) had long been indulged in apparitions of angels...

 

 

UD

 

So it appears there is no precedent for such a thing in the OT?

 

Edited to add: It appears that your reference is devoid of any angel taking back the plates? Is that right, or did I miss something?

Edited February 2, 2015 by danielwoods