Use Of The Urim And Thummim In Translating The Book Of Mormon

[Kevin Christensen]

I haven't made any contention. But, since you asked. The lack of a precedent is a contributing factor and it creates a difficult context or backdrop for believability. For example, the classic "The dog ate my homework…" line is used to hide the fact that homework wasn't ever done. It's convenient in that no evidence is needed to make the claim.

 

So, if there's no precedent and if there's no logical reason for angels to take something back (as in why would they need it anyway?), then the answer, "The angels took them back…" creates the same feeling as other made up excuses.

Except in this case, we have the homework. The Book of Mormon.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[longview]

Except in this case, we have the homework. The Book of Mormon.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

The Angels took back the plates because a big part of it was "sealed" and cannot be read until the time God says it can be revealed.  Yes, we need to do our homework FIRST.

[Uncle Dale]

...

So, if there's no precedent and if there's no logical reason for angels to take something back (as in why would they need it anyway?), then the answer, "The angels took them back…" creates the same feeling as other made up excuses. 

 

Of course, to the objective, disinterested observer, extraordinary claims

generally require extraordinary supporting evidence (if not clear proof).

 

The claim that an angel directed Joseph Smith to a hidden secret record

is reason enough for the non-member to begin asking all sorts of questions.

And the faithful member (even with a testimony of the Nephite Record) can

well be excused for asking his/her own questions about alleged angelic

transmissions, both to and from President Smith.

 

For example, if Smith was indeed punished for trusting Martin Harris so

much (resulting in manuscript loss) by having the plates removed from

his keeping, then WHERE were they taken at that time? And, when they

were reportedly returned, what reason would there have been to also

return the "sealed-plates," (which he was not permitted to use anyway)?

Why entrust the "translator" with plates he cannot translate, in the first

place. Any angel capable of moving these heavy objects from a Cumorah

in Central America, to a Cumorah in Ontario, Co., NY, and then back

and forth from Harmony PA, should have been equally capable of putting

the "sealed plates" safely away in some place out of human reach (which,

if I understand correctly, was the final reason for taking them away).

 

Being one who used to at least hold open the possibility of MesoAmerican

sheets of metal, inscribed in Hebrew or Egyptian, I must now say that I've

grown more than a little skeptical of all the angelic portions of the story,

wherever they appear in Smith's narrative and witness testimony.

 

Another possibility is that Smith initially came upon a site for digging atop

Manchester's "Mormon Hill" (so-called from the 1830s onward) by continued

use of his seer-stone (didn't Martin Harris once call it a peep-stone) and

that the angel account was a later embellishment, of what was originally said.

 

To which my contemporaries might respond "Maybe Joseph let folks like

Martin Harris think such things, but kept the more sacred aspects of events

regarding the plates to himself in those early days, etc. etc. etc."

 

Thus, among believers (or semi-believers and would-be-believers) the

discussion goes round and round, never producing any hard evidence

and indisputable facts. Reasoned conclusions which a logician or judge

might be inclined to accept are few and far between. The disinterested

observer probably would not even bother to stick around, discussing

things up to the point of an angel finally taking away plates -- plates

not yet demonstrated, beyond a doubt, as ever having existed.

 

UD

Edited February 4, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Robert F. Smith]

So some may say -- and so some may believe to be factual history.

 

Our Protestant seminary Hebrew class took a field trip from Columbus

down to Cincinnati and we had ample opportunity to converse with

some Hebrew Union College profs and students. The subject was

generally 3000 year old grammar, idioms, etc.

 

But, at one point -- over cakes and coffee -- one of the professors

said some things about King Saul. I got the impression that he was

not very enamored with the Israelite monarchy, but he did seem more

supportive of the early prophets (Saul himself being known to hang

around with those odd fellows).

 

The professor's opinion of how Saul sought (and expected to

receive) oracular advice/counsel was via a "yes-or-no" response

from two stones -- perhaps cast as lots, or perhaps viewed in

some special direction of illumination -- so as to produce the

positive or negative effect of an "answer."

 

Now maybe that guy had no idea what he was talking about -- maybe

he was a fake of some sort. But everyone there seemed to accept

his opinions as having both historical and theological weight.

 

At the time, I was still too much attached to Mike Quinn's thinking,

to take the Cincinnati teacher's instruction to heart. Quinn had said

that the biblical U&T consisted of sacred spectacles -- and that was

good enough for me.

 

But, thinking back upon that episode, I'm now left to wonder what the

consensus opinion is today -- among the sort of biblical scholars who

write and publish peer-reviewed research into the times and traditions

of the early monarchy?

 

Anybody have a current reading list on hand?

 

UD

The opinions of professors at HUC are worth considering, but they are, after all, representative of Reform Judaism.  Their speculations are really no better than anyone else's.  For example, John Calvin described the properties of the Urim & Thummim as follows:

 

The Urim was a conspicuous stone in the priestly dress, brilliant with a certain extraordinary light as even the word itself, which means "brilliance," makes known.  And this brightness of the stone was a sign of the prophecy to be received as necessity required, just as when God himself flashes in darkness in whom alone is all perfection and completeness.[1]

 

The late Professor Jacob Milgrom recommended Victor Hurowitz’ “evidence from Starr (1990) for the Neo-Assyrian Šamas Anfrage is a fruitful source for understanding the modus operandi of the Urim and Thummim.”[2]

[1] Cornelis Van Dam, The Urim and Thummim, 29, cited in B. Gardner, The Gift & Power (Kofford, 2011), 128 n. 21; cf. R. N. Holzapfel, D. M. Pike, and D. R. Seely, Jehovah and the World of the Old Testament (SLC: Deseret Book, 2009), 109.

[2] Hurowitz, Association of Jewish Studies Review, 19 (1994):230-231, citing J. Starr, “Queries to the Sun God: Divination and Politics in Sargonid Assyria,” State Archives of Assyria, IV (Helsinki Univ. Press, 1990); W. Horowitz and V. Hurowitz, “Urim and Thummim in Light of a Psephomancy Ritual from Assur (LKA 137),” JANES, 21 (1992):95-115, from an August 1989 paper read to the 10^th World Congress of Jewish Studies in Jerusalem, online at http://www.jtsa.edu/Documents/pagedocs/JANES/ 1992%2021/HorowitzHurowitz21.pdf  .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  

 

According to the LDS Book of Abraham 3:1,4, the Urim and Thummim were given to Abraham in Ur by the Lord God, and used as a communicating device between God and Abraham.  Due to the astronomical nature of the information conveyed in chapter 3, Hugh Nibley once speculated that the Urim and Thummim may have been the ocular and objective lenses of a primitive telescope, though it was clearly more than that!

 

Compare Joseph Smith's Inspired Revision of the Bible at John 1:42, "Cephas, which is, by interpretation, a seer, or a stone" (cf. Gen 49:24), with the early Coptic Gnostic Gospel According to Thomas, Logion 19, "If you become disciples to me and hear my words, these stones will minister to you" (Nag Hammadi Codex II Labib, 84:19-21 = II,2, 36:19-21).

 

In his Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I:129, B. H. Roberts explained the matter this way:

 

The seer stone referred to here was a chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in company with his brother Hyrum, . . .  It possessed the qualities of Urim and Thummim, since by means of it--as described above--as well as by means of the Interpreters found with the Nephite record, Joseph was able to translate the characters engraven on the plates.

 

This qualitative sense for the phrase, Urim & Thummim, is extended considerably by D&C 130:6-11, wherein not only does a white pebble or "stone" (cf. Rev 2:17, psephon leuken) become an "Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one," but God and his angels reside on a "great Urim and Thummim" -- "a globe like a sea of glass and fire" -- and that this earth will become a "crystal . . . Urim and Thummim" (in fact, tremendous mass and gravitation make stars crystalline).  Such imagery is familiar from biblical descriptions of the throne of God and the New Jerusalem (Ezk 1 & 10, Dan 7, Rev 4 - 5, 11, 15:2, 20:11, 21 - 22).

 

As H. Nibley has pointed out, something called Wr and Tm is worn around the neck of the Egyptian Wr-m3(w) "Great Seer (of On)."  The Hebrew equivalents,  urim & tummim, are usually given the sense of "Light(s) and Perfection(s)" -- but few specialists are yet willing to do more than speculate and compare cognate uses: Moshe Greenberg sees the oracles as a pair of "No" (curse) and "Yes" (wholeness) lots, while Edward Robertson derives Greek arithmos, "number," from these names for the first and last letters (numbers) of the Hebrew alphabet א and ת as 'ur and tum.

 

Rabbi Nissim Wernick, in his BYU doctoral dissertation, closely examined the various sources for the meaning and oracular use of Urim & Thummim.  He pointed out from the Talmud, for example, that the High Priest "who questioned the oracle was a man upon whom the Shechinah rested" (Talmud Babli Yoma 73b).  He found that Midrash Genesis Rabba 31:11 (on Gen 6:16 tsohar) had Noah using some sort of precious stone (tsohar) to provide light during the twelve months in the enclosed Ark, telling time by noting the sparkle of the stone at night and dimness during the day.  Just so, in Talmud Babli Soferim 21:9 (43b), Abraham used a bowl of brilliant precious stones to provide light in a sunless city he had built, and he also "had a precious stone suspended from his neck, and every sick that gazed upon it was immediately healed of his disease" (TB Baba Batra 16b).  The similarity here to the special stones in Ether 3:1-6,23-24, and 6:2-3 cannot be missed.

 

As H. G. May noted, the pre-Islamic bethels or Baetyls were sacred oracle-stones, apparently symbols of the two Arabic goddesses, 'al-Lat (Lotta) and 'al-ʿUzza, and were administered by priests (kahin) and priestesses (kahina) – or battle-maidens.  Usually two in number, as at Mekkah, these stones are certainly comparable to Hebrew Urim & Thummim, and possibly to the pur-stones ("lots") of the Scroll of Esther (cf. Assyrian puru, "stone; lot," as the origin of Hebrew purim; cf. also Sumerian KIN, "two stones used for lot casting," i.e., for receiving positive and negative answers).  Another mode of lot-casting is mentioned in Ezk 21:26, "he shakes the arrows, he consults the teraphim" (Hebrew terafim "object symbolizing the spirit, statuette" < Hittite tarpi[š] "spirit"), which may have prompted W. W. Phelps' comparison of the Book of Mormon "interpreters, directors, spectacles," with Urim & Thummim and "Teraphim."

 

This is just the once over lightly, Uncle Dale.  Citations on request.

[Robert F. Smith]

Of course, to the objective, disinterested observer, extraordinary claims

generally require extraordinary supporting evidence (if not clear proof).

.............................................................................................  

Thus, among believers (or semi-believers and would-be-believers) the

discussion goes round and round, never producing any hard evidence

and indisputable facts. Reasoned conclusions which a logician or judge

might be inclined to accept are few and far between. The disinterested

observer probably would not even bother to stick around, discussing

things up to the point of an angel finally taking away plates -- plates

not yet demonstrated, beyond a doubt, as ever having existed.

 

UD

Good points, Brother Broadhurst, but only for those who actually know nothing of ancient history.  As I have suggested above, the facts of ancient history make the claims of Joseph Smith seem entirely reasonable and normal.

[Uncle Dale]

Good points, Brother Broadhurst, but only for those who actually know nothing of ancient history.  As I have suggested above, the facts of ancient history make the claims of Joseph Smith seem entirely reasonable and normal.

 

 

Well "seem entirely reasonable," and the result of reasoned observation

are not always the same thing -- we all probably agree on that much.

 

I notice that you did not quote Quinn (in what he thought was a compelling

deduction, back when he was still accepted as a faithful LDS thinker) --

and, the more I contemplate things, the less weight I'm putting in his views.

I doubt seriously that any ancient Israelite prophets donned eye-glasses

containing stones cut like diamonds, etc. etc.

 

But getting back to stones themselves -- the Devil might chide a

holy man, saying that angels would lift him up to rescue if need be;

and the holy man might respond that the same angels could turn

stones into sustenance in the desert, were that the best course for 

events to take.

 

I doubt that any Greek-writing scribe, recording the precursor to

Thomas had Quinn's Jaredite spectacles in mind, when speaking

of "stones" capable of divine ministration -- not that the stones

themselves would inherently be magical, but that the enlightenment

of the disciples (in the Gnostic overlay of the text, at least) would

allow them to perceive truth and light even in seemingly mundane

objects and sources.

 

The profs at Union (at least back in 1979) were drawn from various

traditions -- the RCC priest who took us down there was a visiting

professor (out of Pontificate Josephinum, near Columbus) -- so, I'd

guess that the faculty included scholars both liberal and conservative.

And I'd also guess that the guy I listened to (well sort of listened to)

would have agreed with the source you quoted -- as a demonstration

of how Egyptian terms could be phonetically carried over into Hebrew,

but take on new (and even opposing) meanings in Israelite language.

 

The question of there being a single stone, with a plural identification,

has been a puzzling one. Hebrew poetic parallellism loved to couple

up two slightly differing terms for essentially the same thing -- there

are numerous examples of this sort of language in old scriptures.

But I get the distinct impression that two objects were meant to be

implied by the dual terminology, and that they related directly to the

"yes-or-no" possibility of perceived divine revelation.

 

In Robert Southey's Madoc, he quotes an earlier source, regarding

the illuminating stone set in Merlin's submersible vessel -- to light

its interior as that ancient sage crossed the unknown ocean to what

appears to have been the New World. Southey's source equates

the radiant jewel with the Philosophers' Stone -- another of those

obscure items of antiquity whose very name seems to obscure their

form and function. I wonder if the gold-transmuting oracle stone

obtained by Merlin also gave "yes-and-no" revelation?

 

No matter -- Southey says Merlin's ocean-crossing barque ended

up on the ocean's floor, and there...

 

"Where one emerald light

Through the green element for ever shines."

But, my straying so far afield from the subject at hand, no doubt

betrays my inclinations when it comes to such things.

UD

 

ps: From "Madoc" --

I have supplied Merlin with light when he arrived at his world of mermankind,

but not for his submarine voyage; let Paracelsus do this.

"Urim and Thummim were the Philosopher's stone; and it was this which

gave light in the Ark. For God commanded Noah to make a clear light in the Ark,

which some take for a window; but since the text saith, Day and night shall no

more cease; it seems it did then cease; and therefore there could be no exterior light.

"The Rabbis say that the Hebrew word Zohar, which the Chaldees translate Neher,

is only to be found in this place. Other Hebrew Doctors believe it to have been a

precious stone hung up in the Ark, which gave light to all living creatures therein.

This the greatest Carbuncle could not do, nor any precious stone which is only

natural. But the Universal Spirit, fixed in a transparent body, shines like the sun in

glory; and this was the light which God commanded Noah to make." --

(Paracelsus' Urim and Thummim)

[Guest]

In the spirit of inquiry, what's the precedent for angels giving and taking back artifacts?

I would think in the case of the gold plates, it was to protect them from being stolen and the used to exploit the Church. On the very day he got them he had to hide them in the hollow of a log, only to return that evening and be chased. When he went to get them and then hid them Emma was with him. Also once "secure" (I use that term loosely) he still had people doing what ever they could to steal them. This continued until he gave them back to the Angel Moroni.

[Sevenbak]

Thanks. I appreciate the reference, but it appears that even in this reference, the angel doesn't take it to the celestial realms, rather it is given to the Earth. 

 

"8. And he spake to the earth with a loud voice:

"Earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the mighty God, 

And receive what I commit to thee, 

And guard thou them until the last times, 

So that, when though art ordered, thou mayst restore them, 

So that strangers may not get possession of them…..

 

10. And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up."

How is this any different than the Gold Plates scenario?  It's exactly the same.  The angel took the plates and other artifacts, but then gave them to the "earth", as it is stated in numerous accounts that they are in a large cave in or near Cumorah with many many more artifacts and records, all protected, all to come forth in the Lord's time.

[danielwoods]

How is this any different than the Gold Plates scenario?  It's exactly the same.  The angel took the plates and other artifacts, but then gave them to the "earth", as it is stated in numerous accounts that they are in a large cave in or near Cumorah with many many more artifacts and records, all protected, all to come forth in the Lord's time.

 

I was only aware of the claim that the "angels took the plates back", I was not aware that Joseph Smith claimed that the plates were taken to a large cave by the angelic beings. If that's the case, then you do have a point. 

[Uncle Dale]

I was only aware of the claim that the "angels took the plates back", I was not aware that Joseph Smith claimed that the plates were taken to a large cave by the angelic beings. If that's the case, then you do have a point.

According to Oliver Cowdery, the stones Smith reportedly uncovered

were merely a small part of a much larger construction, extending

down into the Manchester hill. It had once been buried deeper, but

ages of erosion had served to expose the cover stone, etc.

In another place Oliver is credited with revealing the presence of

a vast chamber full of ancient records, inside the hill. Since we

do not have his exact description or an explanation of what he

meant to convey, the whole story is problematical.

Some writers have dismissed the possibility of Moroni having

constructed such a hidden record chamber in New York -- I

suppose with the accompanying argument that such a thing

could only exist in the Central American Cumorah.

I wash my hands of the whole topic, 2nd Baruch and all...

There's no cave full of plates in Manchester, New York

and no angel ever deposited or re-deposted any such

records deep within that glacial moraine.

UD

Edited February 5, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Sevenbak]

I was only aware of the claim that the "angels took the plates back", I was not aware that Joseph Smith claimed that the plates were taken to a large cave by the angelic beings. If that's the case, then you do have a point. 

Yes, just research Cumorah's cave, you will find several accounts of it.  Mostly taught over the pulpit by Brigham Young.  The point will be very apparent as the similarities are numerous.

 

In fact, one could probably go line by line with this account and find a pattern found in the Cumorah reference.

 

And receive what I commit to thee, 

And guard thou them until the last times, 

So that, when though art ordered, thou mayst restore them, 

So that strangers may not get possession of them…..

 

 

10. And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up."

[danielwoods]

According to Oliver Cowdery, the stones Smith reportedly uncovered

were merely a small part of a much larger construction, extending

down into the Manchester hill. It had once been buried deeper, but

ages of erosion had served to expose the cover stone, etc.

In another place Oliver is credited with revealing the presence of

a vast chamber full of ancient records, inside the hill. Since we

do not have his exact description or an explanation of what he

meant to convey, the whole story is problematical.

Some writers have dismissed the possibility of Moroni having

constructed such a hidden record chamber in New York -- I

suppose with the accompanying argument that such a thing

could only exist in the Central American Cumorah.

I wash my hands of the whole topic, 2nd Baruch and all...

There's no cave full of plates in Manchester, New York

and no angel ever deposited or re-deposted any such

records deep within that glacial moraine.

UD

 

Curious why? (bolded part)

[Uncle Dale]

Curious why? (bolded part)

 

Corrected.

 

But, since I've again placed my hands upon the subject,

here is an historical oddity, from Palmyra, for folks to ponder:

 

>The path seemed quite smooth, the walls and covering were sparkling with

>[stalacites], showing that the water penetrated through to a large extent.

>After traveling what seemed many miles, the ground seemed to rise suddenly,

>and our Mormon friend opened a huge oaken door, when our eyes were

>almost dazzled by the magnificence we beheld. There suspended from the

>side of the wall by massive golden cords were the original gold plates, from

>which Joseph Smith compiled the first Mormon bible. There were many

>other curious and beautiful things there, and on a huge divan sat a very old

>man. He seemed to be as old as Smith would be himself at the present time.

>We were asked many questions about the early [struggle] and origin of

>Mormonism, which we answered as best we could from what we had heard

>and read; after this the old patriarch waved us out of the cave...

 

Curious, eh?

 

UD

[Sevenbak]

Some writers have dismissed the possibility of Moroni having

constructed such a hidden record chamber in New York -- I

suppose with the accompanying argument that such a thing

could only exist in the Central American Cumorah.

I wash my hands of the whole topic, 2nd Baruch and all...

There's no cave full of plates in Manchester, New York

and no angel ever deposited or re-deposted any such

records deep within that glacial moraine.

UD

Well, for those of us who don't necessarily buy into the modern concept of a Mexico Cumorah... the account of Ether hiding in the "cavity of a rock", while viewing and recording the destruction of his people at Ramah (Cumorah), at least heralds the possibility that such a cavern existed and still exists in the vicinity of Manchester N.Y.

[Sevenbak]

 

Curious, eh?

 

UD

Not really.  But I think Indiana Jones 3 was based on the newspaper clip.

 

"You must choose wisely."

[Uncle Dale]

Well, for those of us who don't necessarily buy into the modern concept of a Mexico Cumorah... the account of Ether hiding in the "cavity of a rock", while viewing and recording the destruction of his people at Ramah (Cumorah), at least heralds the possibility that such a cavern existed and still exists in the vicinity of Manchester N.Y.

 

Kinda difficult to form lasting caverns in glacial moraines.

Though the Smith family's artificial tunnel-cavern in

"Miner's Hill" (north of Cumorah) has partly survived for

180 years without totally collapsing. I suppose that with

judicious timbering, a support system could be intruded

into a moraine that might survive for three or four centuries.

 

UD

[Stargazer]

We should have measurements from the death mask and all the artists that have been working on making the most accurate picture of him.

 

Maybe he just had beady, too close together eyes like a typical con man.

 

This site looks like it has the measurements:

 

http://www.josephsmithimage.com

 

I have a problem when trying to use common-sized binoculars, because MY eyes are set somewhat closer together than most bino makers allow for.  The only kind I can use properly and the darned expensive kind.  I was at Cabelas a few days ago and found a set of Zeiss binos that were very comfy to use, worked well with my eyeglasses, and could come together close enough for me to get the benefit of binocular vision.  And then I looked at the price and nearly dropped them in dismay!  $300!!!  Yikes!!!

[Stargazer]

Of course, to the objective, disinterested observer, extraordinary claims

generally require extraordinary supporting evidence (if not clear proof).

<snip />

 

UD

I agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary supporting evidence.

And by taking the plates back, God ensures that that supporting evidence will have to be obtained through individual witness through the Spirit of God.

It is not the same thing at all as Einstein theorizing that gravity bends the course of light, and then during a solar eclipse Eddington actually demonstrates that the theory is fact.

[Robert F. Smith]

----------------------------------------------------------------   

I doubt seriously that any ancient Israelite prophets donned eye-glasses

containing stones cut like diamonds, etc. etc.

Either you didn't read carefully, or not at all.  There is no such claim about the Israelite High Priest, nor of the Israelite prophets.  Indeed, immediately below you actually contradict yourself on this by speaking of the "Jaredite spectacles."

 

...................................................................  

I doubt that any Greek-writing scribe, recording the precursor to

Thomas had Quinn's Jaredite spectacles in mind, when speaking

of "stones" capable of divine ministration -- not that the stones

themselves would inherently be magical, but that the enlightenment

of the disciples (in the Gnostic overlay of the text, at least) would

allow them to perceive truth and light even in seemingly mundane

objects and sources.

Nonsense.  You entirely miss the point about the widespread stone-motif.

 

The profs at Union (at least back in 1979) were drawn from various

traditions -- the RCC priest who took us down there was a visiting

professor (out of Pontificate Josephinum, near Columbus) -- so, I'd

guess that the faculty included scholars both liberal and conservative.

And I'd also guess that the guy I listened to (well sort of listened to)

would have agreed with the source you quoted -- as a demonstration

of how Egyptian terms could be phonetically carried over into Hebrew,

but take on new (and even opposing) meanings in Israelite language.

While it is true that all Jewish Hebraists share common technical understanding of Hebrew language and literature, they can strongly disagree on matters of interpretation.  HUC has always been a Reform Jewish institution where Reform rabbis have been trained.  As much as BYU, Notre Dame, and Wheaton College, they have a particular point of view on religion.

 

The question of there being a single stone, with a plural identification,

has been a puzzling one. Hebrew poetic parallellism loved to couple

up two slightly differing terms for essentially the same thing -- there

are numerous examples of this sort of language in old scriptures.

But I get the distinct impression that two objects were meant to be

implied by the dual terminology, and that they related directly to the

"yes-or-no" possibility of perceived divine revelation.

No biblical scholar I know of has thought the Urim & Thummim to be a single stone, regardless of confusion among non-scholars.  Emma Smith said in 1870:

 

Now the first that my husband translated was translated by the use of Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost.  After that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color.  Emma Smith Bidamon letter to Emma Pilgrim, Nauvoo, March 27, 1870 (RLDS Archives P4 f20, reverse side); The Return, 4/12 (July 15, 1895):2.

 

Like you and many others, Joseph Knight Sr. mixed terminology or confused glasses and seer-stone while describing an actual translation method used by Joseph Smith:

 

Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkened his Eyes then he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters.  Then he would tell the writer and he would write it.  Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on.  But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous.  Thus was the hol translated.

 

Heber C. Kimball reported that Brigham Young had possession of the Urim & Thummim, and Wilford Woodruff claimed that Joseph had shown him the Urim & Thummim at a meeting with the Twelve on December 27, 1841, in Nauvoo, while Brigham himself reports of that same meeting:

 

I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph’s.  He . . . explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. . . . he showed us his seer stone.

 

In Robert Southey's Madoc, he quotes an earlier source, regarding

the illuminating stone set in Merlin's submersible vessel -- to light

its interior as that ancient sage crossed the unknown ocean to what

appears to have been the New World. Southey's source equates

the radiant jewel with the Philosophers' Stone -- another of those

obscure items of antiquity whose very name seems to obscure their

form and function. I wonder if the gold-transmuting oracle stone

obtained by Merlin also gave "yes-and-no" revelation?

 

In Welsh Arthurian legend, the Holy Grail, shield, and sacred spear are important to Parsifal/Perceval's spiritual quest, and parallel the sacred relics in the Book of Mormon (Liahona, breastplate, spectacles, and Sword of Laban [Excalibur?]).: In the case of the Liahona, Joseph Campbell's observation that a revelation mysteriously appears inscribed on the angelically delivered Holy Grail/Sangreal seems particularly apropos).  As noted by Gordon Thomasson, such relics are the universal symbols of kingship.  

 

No matter -- Southey says Merlin's ocean-crossing barque ended

up on the ocean's floor, and there...

 

"Where one emerald light

Through the green element for ever shines."

But, my straying so far afield from the subject at hand, no doubt

betrays my inclinations when it comes to such things.

...........................................................

 

ps: From "Madoc" --

I have supplied Merlin with light when he arrived at his world of mermankind,

but not for his submarine voyage; let Paracelsus do this.

"Urim and Thummim were the Philosopher's stone; and it was this which

gave light in the Ark. For God commanded Noah to make a clear light in the Ark,

which some take for a window; but since the text saith, Day and night shall no

more cease; it seems it did then cease; and therefore there could be no exterior light.

"The Rabbis say that the Hebrew word Zohar, which the Chaldees translate Neher,

is only to be found in this place. Other Hebrew Doctors believe it to have been a

precious stone hung up in the Ark, which gave light to all living creatures therein.

This the greatest Carbuncle could not do, nor any precious stone which is only

natural. But the Universal Spirit, fixed in a transparent body, shines like the sun in

glory; and this was the light which God commanded Noah to make." --

(Paracelsus' Urim and Thummim)

Southey's Welsh Prince Madoc is, therefore, appropriate to our discussion, since he includes such references from arcane sources, while composing his epic poem about late medieval Welshmen melding with Aztecs in Florida (borrowing a great deal also from the conquests of Cortes and Pizzaro).

 

Your critical problem, however, is the same one faced by Mike Quinn, Dan Vogel, and others, in making Joseph Smith out to be a prime scholar of his era, when in fact a careful analysis of the facts wouldn't even allow the greatest scholar of that day to compose the Book of Mormon.  Too much information was just not available until almost two centuries later.  That is one of the reasons why Mike Quinn still has a testimony of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

[Uncle Dale]

As some wag said a few years back, at a Sunstone

gathering -- "Yes! I suppose Quinn is a well-meaning

fellow -- but would let HIM marry your brother?"

As for biblical oracular stones, oracular stones

transported by refugees from Babel's tower,

oracular stones consulted by Lehites, Mulekites,

Zarahemlaites, or any other manner of ites, I

know not their kinship with Sally Chase's odd

peep-stone, nor to any other similar objects kept

in First Presidencies' vaults (and, yes, I was

shown the CoC relic, which I took to be a

Hopewell two-holed "distance-seer").

As for whether or not windows cut into the

sides of divinely-commanded ocean-going

vessels would have been a better choice for

interior illumination, I'll leave such questions

and their answers to pre-deluvian glaziers

and Philosopher Stone gazers.

But Quinn did clear up one thing for me -- as

he explained that the "diamond" lenses set

in the rims of a purported silver bow, were

not actual carbon gems, but merely the

urim and thummim, cut to diamond shape.

Enough of this stuff. I can't find enough for

a wicked gentile to believe in, let alone an

1860 apostate.

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

................................................................   

Some writers have dismissed the possibility of Moroni having

constructed such a hidden record chamber in New York -- I

suppose with the accompanying argument that such a thing

could only exist in the Central American Cumorah.

I wash my hands of the whole topic, 2nd Baruch and all...

There's no cave full of plates in Manchester, New York

and no angel ever deposited or re-deposted any such

records deep within that glacial moraine.

..................................................

I know of  no logical reason to suppose that Moroni ever deposited anything more than the Book of Mormon plates, breastplate, and spectacles in that glacial moraine.

 

The records cache used by Mormon, as described in the Book of Mormon itself as well as in visions by others, would most likely be in a mountain in the Tuxtlas range in Veracruz State, in Mexico.  Some consider Cerro el Vigia the best candidate.

[Robert F. Smith]

..................................

(and, yes, I was shown the CoC relic, which I took to be a

Hopewell two-holed "distance-seer").

Those are called "gorgets."

 

As for whether or not windows cut into the

sides of divinely-commanded ocean-going

vessels would have been a better choice for

interior illumination, I'll leave such questions

and their answers to pre-deluvian glaziers

and Philosopher Stone gazers.

.......................................................

Of course the Ark of Noah had no windows (just like the Jaredite barges), and did not look at all like the sort of Sunday School art we typically see.

 

Aside from the talmudic legends treated by Rabbi Wernick (which I have mentioned), and aside from John Dee’s (1527-1608) Aztec obsidian mirror, which was characterized as "The Devil's Looking Glass: The Magical Speculum of Dr. John Dee" (now in the British Museum), there are more ancient examples of seerstones and closely related paraphernalia:

 

The most holy object in Islam is, of course, the Black Stone ('al-ajar 'al'aswad, said to have been given to Abraham by Gabriel/Jabril) housed in the Great Mosque (Temple) of Mekkah, on the southeast corner of the small stone building therein called the Ka'abah (the other stone there is seldom mentioned).  Moreover, J. L. Burckhardt described it as oval in shape, about seven inches in diameter, black as coal, with flecs of colored crystals and red feldspar, and bordered by a protective band of silver about a foot wide.  In many cases, the stones are identified as meteoric or volcanic in origin -- as in the Islamic instance.  Pliny the Elder, for example, sees the Greek baitulos (Latin baetulos) as a kind of ceraunia (Latin ceraunion, Greek keraunion, "thunderbolt"; cerauniae, "mushrooms"), saying

 

. . . among the bright colourless stones there is also the one called ceraunia. . . .  Sotacus distinguishes also two other varieties of the stone, a black and a red, resembling axe-heads.  According to him, those among them that are black and round are supernatural objects; and he states that thanks to them cities and fleets are attacked and overcome, their name being baetulos, while the elongated stones are ceraunias.  These writers distinguish yet another kind (of ceraunias) which is quite rare.  According to them the Magi hunt for it zealously because it is found only in a place that has been struck by a thunderbolt (fulmine).

 

So also does Damascius tell us that the baitulos is a meteoric stone, sacred because it fell from heaven; and wasn't the Palladium ("Womb") a geode preserved by the Vestal Virgins in the shape of a divine thunderbolt?  The votive thunderbolt was also a replica of the goddess Pallas Athena, whose names mean "womb, vulva," and bring to mind the womb-stone concept, e.g., geode, "a nodule of stone having a cavity lined with crystals"; cf. the Greek 'obeon, and Latin ovum, "egg."  Edith Hamilton tells of another important, if mythological connection:

 

. . . Cronus, . . was lord of the universe, . . .  Finally one of their sons, the future ruler of heaven and earth, whose name in Greek is Zeus and in Latin Jupiter, rebelled against him.  He had good cause to do so, for Cronus had learned that one of his children was destined some day to dethrone him and he thought to go against fate by swallowing them as soon as they were born.  But when Rhea bore Zeus, her sixth child, she succeeded in having him secretly carried off to Crete, while she gave her husband a great stone wrapped in swaddling clothes which he supposed was the baby and swallowed down accordingly.  Later, when Zeus was grown, he forced his father with the help of his grandmother, the Earth, to disgorge it along with five earlier children, and it was set up at Delphi where eons later a great traveler, Pausanias by name, reports that he saw it about 180 A.D.: "A stone of no great size which the priests of Delphi anoint every day with oil."

 

This reminds one very much of Jacob's celebration of revelation at "the gate of heaven" by anointing his pillow-stone at Beth-El, "House-of-God [Temple]," with oil (Gen 28:11-22).  Was this the right thing for him to do, from the orthodox point of view (cf. Lev 26:1, Hos 3:4, 10:1)?  After all, the stone constituted an altar, angels were ascending and descending on the stairway, and God certainly remembered it as a blessed event (Gen 31:13).

 

All this brings to mind the Mayan zaztun, "clear-stone (rock crystal)," which was typically placed in balche (mead) to "quicken" it, and could then be used to divine the the future, the cause of an illness or other problem, and even to work a cure.*  This is reminiscent of the function of the "philosopher's stone" as a curative agent.  One might want also to compare the Holy Grail, as "at once the most precious stone, a cult vessel, and an oracle."** This also brings to mind the fabled Mayan giron-gagal or pizom-gagal as a kind of New World stone compass (or liahona) used by the ancestors of the Quiche Maya in their major migration from the East.

 

*  See the photo and description in National Geographic, 148/6 (Dec 1975):746-747.   Cf. Walter Krickeberg, "Mesoamerica," in Krickeberg, Trimborn, Mueller, and Zerries, Pre-Columbian American Religions (1968), 75,

 

Other priests healed the sick, transmitted oracles, foretold the future using a zaztun ("clear stone," i.e. rock crystal).  Tozzer tells us that the zaztun must first be placed in a vessel of mead (balche) in order to awake it to consciousness. 

 

**  Goetz, Archiv für Kulturforschung, 2:5, cited in Campbell, Masks of God, IV:570 n.

 

[Uncle Dale]

I know of  no logical reason to suppose that Moroni ever deposited anything more than the Book of Mormon plates, breastplate, and spectacles in that glacial moraine.

 

The records cache used by Mormon, as described in the Book of Mormon itself as well as in visions by others, would most likely be in a mountain in the Tuxtlas range in Veracruz State, in Mexico.  Some consider Cerro el Vigia the best candidate.

 

Well, I suppose I must yield to your better-informed store of

knowledge on such arcane matters. Three Institute classes

and a date with the blonde in the front classroom row do not

an expert on LDS Studies make (sigh!)

 

But, since you're being such a good sport about things, and

taking time to do more than a little pondering, let me ask you

a question on marginally related ark topic.

 

Supposing the Father Noah took off with an ark filled with

animals, embarking from a rain-drenched South Carolina

(or wherever Meridan Magazine writers are prone to say),

which eventually made it to the other side of a flood-subsiding

globe.... then did the animals disembark, and re-populate

planet earth?

 

Were ancestors of our modern horses guests aboard that craft?

 

The reason I ask, is that bones of horses and humans, in the

same Oregon cave, in the same excavation layer, tell us that

15,000 years ago (or, maybe a little less) North Americans did

indeed chow down on horse steaks and horse ribs.

 

Not our modern Equus caballus, mind you -- but a dog-sized

relative in the ancestral tree.

 

Alas, post-Noah, none seem to have survived. Or, perhaps

it was post-barbeque by Amerinds -- no matter that -- I simply

wish to know which breed of horses Mormons typically assume

were taken aboard the ark, and why their descendants never

made it back to Oregon, and elsewhere in the New World

(while racoons so successfully made the migration from the

plains of Shinar, so as not to have left a single bone behind)?

 

Things I never got around to asking, when I lived in "The Valley."

 

UD

[Stargazer]

I know of  no logical reason to suppose that Moroni ever deposited anything more than the Book of Mormon plates, breastplate, and spectacles in that glacial moraine.

 

The records cache used by Mormon, as described in the Book of Mormon itself as well as in visions by others, would most likely be in a mountain in the Tuxtlas range in Veracruz State, in Mexico.  Some consider Cerro el Vigia the best candidate.

And if I had a few million dollars I would go down there and look for it.

[Kaleb Webb]

The Urim and Thummim that was deposited with the gold plates by Moroni was used to translate the first part of the BoM, but when Martin Harris lost it, Moroni took away the Urim and Thummim and the Gold Plates. The Plates were eventually returned, but the Urim and Thummim were not. Joseph used various seer stones to translate the rest of the Book of Mormon