Use Of The Urim And Thummim In Translating The Book Of Mormon

[Uncle Dale]

... You have to decide which path you wish to tread....

 

One choice would be to stick to the Standard Works,

official Messages of the First Presidency of the One

True Church, and closely related restoration texts.

 

"Tower to get to heaven" is included in my Lamoni edition

of the BoM -- I haven't consulted the title page of any

more recent printings from other sects.

 

Either the languages of all the world's peoples were

confused after that "tower to get to heaven" iniquity

was perpetrated -- or they were not. If the language

learned in school by Maharoni Moriancumer, Ether,

the Brother of Jared, etc. was NOT changed, then

I'm sure that the Standard Works, etc. will mention

such a fact. And if the language of Oregon horse

eating pre-Jaredites was or was not changed, after

that "tower to get to heaven" fiasco, that small thing

matters not too much (other than to raise a question).

 

UD

[Sevenbak]

 

Let's say that such things once happened much more quickly

than during the past few millennia, and that the spacing between

the cooled lava lines happened in hundreds of years, rather

than millions. The notion is a ridiculous one, but if accepted,

even that calculation would have left the sundered coastlines

of South America and Brazil a veritable "stone's throw" apart

before, during and after Peleg's lengthy lifetime.

 

UD

The notion is a ridiculous one?  I think not.  I don't know if you accept the words of Joseph Smith on the matter in the D&C over in the Community of Christ, but I can tell you that D&C 133 is the prophet Joseph speaking, and he's not talking about the 2nd coming being a period of millions of years.    This is one of those known science versus faith things IMO.  I don't think they can be rectified.  For me an my house, I choose the latter.

 

 22 And it shall be a voice as the ^avoice of many waters, and as the voice of a great ^bthunder, which shall ^cbreakdown the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.

 23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the ^aislands shall become one land;

 24 And the ^aland of Jerusalem and the land of ^bZion shall be turned back into their own place, and the ^cearth shall be like as it was in the days before it was ^ddivided.

 25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall ^astand in the midst of his people, and shall ^breign over all flesh.

 26 And they who are in the ^anorth countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall ^bsmite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

 

 27 And an ^ahighway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Sevenbak

[Uncle Dale]

...

 27 And an ^ahighway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.

 

Why "cast up" a great highway, between the north polar region and Jackson County,

Missouri? The reason for such an energetic endeavor escapes my memory.

 

Certainly this mentioned highway will not be intended to provide a safe path

down through Canada, the Dakotas and Iowa to Independence -- so that

ten lost tribes of Israelites can gather around a millennial temple there, three

tribes to a side of its square.

 

But, supposing that global climate change continues to increase in intensity,

and every fragment of ice and snow north of the Tropic of Cancer melts away:

then perhaps any tribesmen still surviving up there will welcome the thoughtful

provision of a causeway over flooded Alberta and Saskatchewan.

 

I'll believe it when I see it...

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

One choice would be to stick to the Standard Works,

official Messages of the First Presidency of the One

True Church, and closely related restoration texts.

........................................................

Yes, but then you will have to decide which is the true church, if any.  

[Uncle Dale]

Yes, but then you will have to decide which is the true church, if any.  

 

Why just me? ... Let's have all the interested participants for this

board register their choices and we can tabulate the results.

 

Mark me down for the ecclesia veritas being any faithful

assembly John the Baptizer presided over.

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

.......................................

The Institute teacher was one of the noted Yorgason brothers

(Blaine I think it was) and in no way an idiot. His focus was not

upon Smith's activities prior to resumption of the translation

of the Nephite Record, but thereafter.

 

According to the class hand-outs Smith then had the U&T taken

away from him. Handout #12 (xeroxed) is from page 43 of Allen

and Leonard's 1976 edition of "Story of the Latter-day Saints,"

and ends with the words "but also the plates and the urim and

thummim..."

 

I do not have their 1st edition, but in the 2nd edition a similar

paragraph goes on to say "the urim and thummim were restored

to him..."

 

Interesting that the CES granted me credit for completing an

authorized class, that taught false doctrine.

 

No doubt these errors have been corrected in the 21st century

classes, yes?

...................................

I don't know about any of that, Dale, but just consider yourself lucky that it wasn't Sterling McMurrin or Grant Palmer teaching on that occasion -- both were CES instructors.  On the oher hand, David Bokovoy is a CES instructor.  So they can't all be bad.

[Robert F. Smith]

Why just me? ... Let's have all the interested participants for this

board register their choices and we can tabulate the results.

 

Mark me down for the ecclesia veritas being any faithful

assembly John the Baptizer presided over.

 

UD

Does that include the Mandaeans?

[Sevenbak]

Why "cast up" a great highway, between the north polar region and Jackson County,

Missouri? ...

I'll believe it when I see it...

UD

You missed the point. "The land of" actually means something.

[Uncle Dale]

You missed the point. "The land of" actually means something.

 

I frequently do. Perhaps that why I always lose, playing quoits.

 

But, if somebody really wishes to believe that the continental

plates of this planet will suddenly converge, in anything less

than, say, half a billion years from now... well, I can only hope

that they are not teaching geodynamics at Scripps Institute;

nor even at Seaworld.

 

There are cataclysmic geomorphological events every now 

and then, of course. I would have hated to see the surprised

Indians fishing in the rivers of the Columbia valley when ancient

Lake Bonneville suddenly broke through Red Rock Pass, and

brought brineshimp bayou down to about its current size.

 

But, no, the eons of snow accumulation in Greenland and

the Antarctic were not tricks provided by the Devil, to confuse

faithful Assembly of God ice-core drillers. Nor were the

continents significantly parted in biblical times. Nor will there

be any last days gathering of Lamanites, Ephraimites and

Lost Tribeites in Jackson County, Missouri (causeway or not).

 

Sorry about that. Sometimes the things taught in our schools

by the scientists are actually correct precepts.

 

Which brings me back to Talmadge and Dr. Walter Buss of Ogden.

But that's a tale for another long February night...

 

UD

[Uncle Dale]

Does that include the Mandaeans?

 

Dunno. Were they included in any of the Hebrew Bible

passages providing the basis for our word "church?"

 

Trace the word backwards to its earliest occurrences

in the texts, and maybe an answer will be provided.

 

But the addition of something related to the word "true"

will be required in such a search -- for (I'm told) that

the Hebrew and Aramaic references to assemblies can

be applied both to gatherings of the faithful of Israel

and gatherings down at Sepphoris' Friday Fish Market.

 

UD

[Michael13365]

The use of peep stones, or seer stones, was quite common among the New Englanders who settled in western New York when those lands were opened for settlement following the American Revolution. That area had been the homeland of the Senecas and was rich in artifacts of all kinds. Digging for artifacts, which mostly turned out to be little valued flints and European trade goods, was a sort of mania for a while. It seems undeniable that Joseph and his neighbors made use of such stones in a hunt for supposed treasures in the old Seneca sites. The Urim and Thummin were fairly obscure Biblical references and scarcely in common use. It is not surprising that the terms were not used at the time when the plates were uncovered.

In my fictional version of Joseph's life, I see him as sharing the belief in special stones and buried treasures common in his culture. The Smith's neighbors, the Chase family, were quite involved in such practices and it seems that Sally Chase, a few years older than Joseph, might have influenced his thinking. She did, in fact, claim that he had taken one of her favorite peep stones and refused to return it. According to Lucy Mack Smith, the Chases were very upset to learn that Joseph had found gold plates and felt he ought to share the find with them - since they had previously some kind of informal agreement.

http://www.amazon.com/True-History-Joseph-Smith-ebook/dp/B00SSBDB4U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423500822&sr=8-1&keywords=True+history+of+Joseph+smith

[Uncle Dale]

The use of peep stones, or seer stones, was quite common among the New Englanders who settled in western New York when those lands were opened for settlement following the American Revolution. That area had been the homeland of the Senecas and was rich in artifacts of all kinds. Digging for artifacts, which mostly turned out to be little valued flints and European trade goods, was a sort of mania for a while. It seems undeniable that Joseph and his neighbors made use of such stones in a hunt for supposed treasures in the old Seneca sites. The Urim and Thummin were fairly obscure Biblical references and scarcely in common use. It is not surprising that the terms were not used at the time when the plates were uncovered.

In my fictional version of Joseph's life, I see him as sharing the belief in special stones and buried treasures common in his culture. The Smith's neighbors, the Chase family, were quite involved in such practices and it seems that Sally Chase, a few years older than Joseph, might have influenced his thinking. She did, in fact, claim that he had taken one of her favorite peep stones and refused to return it. According to Lucy Mack Smith, the Chases were very upset to learn that Joseph had found gold plates and felt he ought to share the find with them - since they had previously some kind of informal agreement.

http://www.amazon.com/True-History-Joseph-Smith-ebook/dp/B00SSBDB4U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423500822&sr=8-1&keywords=True+history+of+Joseph+smith

 

A few times I've tried doing searches, back through pre-1830

newspapers -- and especially those from New York and New England.

Divining rod accounts are fairly common. There may be something

like a fortune-telling crystal ball mentioned here and there...

 

But published articles mentioning American peep-stones are rare;

at least up until 1830. After that, practically every such occurrence

in the newspapers has to do with Joseph Smith, in one way or

another.

 

On the other hand, very early mentions of his "stone spectacles"

are easy to find. The idea proved to be so unique, that newspaper

writers seemed delighted to be able to include the "interpreters"

in composing their articles. I think, perhaps, there may be some

comparison made with the biblical U&T -- but can't recall of any

published before Phelps introduced the term.

 

If I ever find anything pre-Phelps, I'll put it on the web. Phelps

himself possessed a divining rod in his later years. Not sure if

I recall his having a stone, however.

 

One of my distant relatives had what was called a "Scotch stone,"

which she evidently used to locate lost cattle, etc. But I know so

little about her that I can't even recall the name.

 

The problem with using such a stone to find strayed cattle is that

a logical suspicion could fall upon the seer, as perhaps knowing

that location in advance, without consulting his stone.

 

And, wasn't it Lucy Harris who suggested that Joseph use his

stone to find the "lost" Book of Lehi? How could she make such

a statement, if Smith had no stone until after the "interpreters"

were taken away?

 

Somebody really ought to write a 600-page, Quinn-style study

of these topics. Brown's "Plates of Gold" is far too "thin."

 

UD

Edited February 12, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[ALarson]

A few times I've tried doing searches, back through pre-1830

newspapers -- and especially those from New York and New England.

Divining rod accounts are fairly common.

 

This reminded me of reading about the "Fraternity of Rodsman" that Oliver Cowdery's Father was involved in (and also possibly Joseph Smith, Sr. according some witness's statements).  What are your feelings regarding them? (Maybe this needs to be a new thread as I don't want to derail this one).

Edited February 12, 2015 by ALarson

[Uncle Dale]

This reminded me of reading about the "Fraternity of Rodsman" that Oliver Cowdery's Father was involved in (and also possibly Joseph Smith, Sr. according some witness's statements).  What are your feelings regarding them? (Maybe this needs to be a new thread as I don't want to derail this one).

 

Yeah -- we need a thread here discussing whether

or not Joseph Smith, Jr. and Joseph Smith, Sr. ever

used divining rods -- same for Oliver and his father.

 

I once asked a question along these lines to Grant McMurray,

when he was the church librarian, in the RLDS Auditorium --

"Certainly not!" was his answer. -- So, on the Reorganized side,

at least, there are those sorts of denials concerning divining

rods and early Mormonism.

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

......................................................................

 

....................................................... Nor will there

be any last days gathering of Lamanites, Ephraimites and

Lost Tribeites in Jackson County, Missouri (causeway or not).

........................................................................................  

We have that on your august authority, Dale?  I used to meet many prophets in Jackson County in the old days, and even the ones on thorazine used to have prophecies for me.

[Robert F. Smith]

Yeah -- we need a thread here discussing whether

or not Joseph Smith, Jr. and Joseph Smith, Sr. ever

used divining rods -- same for Oliver and his father.

 

I once asked a question along these lines to Grant McMurray,

when he was the church librarian, in the RLDS Auditorium --

"Certainly not!" was his answer. -- So, on the Reorganized side,

at least, there are those sorts of denials concerning divining

rods and early Mormonism.

 

UD

Grant and I discussed that with his boss Richard Howard one day there in the Auditorium, and Richard directed us to Ludlum, so we were well informed on the WoodScrape Affair and on the various future Mormons who had been using such paraphernalia.  Joseph taught that some had an ability with rods, and others with stones.  You may be confusing the two separate specialties.  By the way, some people assert that Brigham Young "witched" the location for the Salt Lake Temple with Oliver's rod.  Does that scandalize you?

[Robert F. Smith]

.....................................................................................

 

And, wasn't it Lucy Harris who suggested that Joseph use his

stone to find the "lost" Book of Lehi? How could she make such

a statement, if Smith had no stone until after the "interpreters"

were taken away?

 

Somebody really ought to write a 600-page, Quinn-style study

of these topics. Brown's "Plates of Gold" is far too "thin."

 

UD

There you go again ignoring all the scholarship which has shown that the stones came first, and the interpreters later.

 

You might want to take a look at the extensive research materials gathered by Michael Marquardt and deposited in the Univ. of Utah Library (accn0900, http://user.xmission.com/~research/mormonpdf/hmmcollection0900.pdf ).  You will find all the arcane literature gathered for you there.  No need to go out digging on your own.

[Uncle Dale]

There you go again ignoring all the scholarship which has shown that the stones came first, and the interpreters later.

 

You might want to take a look at the extensive research materials gathered by Michael Marquardt and deposited in the Univ. of Utah Library (accn0900, http://user.xmission.com/~research/mormonpdf/hmmcollection0900.pdf ).  You will find all the arcane literature gathered for you there.  No need to go out digging on your own.

 

Easier to just ask Mike next time he calls.

 

But, if historians and social anthropologists nowadays

accept Mormon "scholarship" on oracles, then of course

I must bend to that wind.

 

Tell me the truth -- was it a divining rod or a stone that Brigham

displayed in St. George? And was it a divining rod or a stone that

he used to fengshui the Deseret holy of holies?

 

As for Ludlum and friends (been there; done that) we can review...

 

 

Yes -- we need a thread on divining rods -- to sort this out.

 

UD