SteveO Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 http://www.theculturalhallpodcast.com/2015/01/why-i-left-the-cultural-hall/What do you guys think? A few points:1) This seems to be the standard story of those who describe losing their faith--they live the gospel more perfectly than I do it seems, but are never able to gain a testimony. How can I believe and they are left hanging with nothing?2) If the church is not true, how does one account for someone like me convincing myself by going through the motions, and the other going through the same motions, but unable to Comice themselves? Difference in human psychology?3) Do you think one of the problems is with the culture of the church with regards to testimonies? i.e. "Knowing" the church is true when it really is "believing" and those who are struggling thinking "something is wrong with me"?Thoughts? Tread carefully. We do not want the board used for exit stories.
Duncan Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I am not clear as to how she knows or feels the Church isn't true, I get she doesn't know it is true but why does believe or think it isn't? if you don't know it is true but don't know it isn't true either I don't get how you get to a point where you say it isn't true without some kind of an experience that says it isn't true. If you don't know it is true then you can't say it isn't true either, you are just in an agnostic frame of reference 1
CV75 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 http://www.theculturalhallpodcast.com/2015/01/why-i-left-the-cultural-hall/ What do you guys think? A few points: 1) This seems to be the standard story of those who describe losing their faith--they live the gospel more perfectly than I do it seems, but are never able to gain a testimony. How can I believe and they are left hanging with nothing? 2) If the church is not true, how does one account for someone like me convincing myself by going through the motions, and the other going through the same motions, but unable to Comice themselves? Difference in human psychology? 3) Do you think one of the problems is with the culture of the church with regards to testimonies? i.e. "Knowing" the church is true when it really is "believing" and those who are struggling thinking "something is wrong with me"? Thoughts?I think any of the three questions can be answered with, “It could be anything,” especially if we are trying to understand someone else 9we really have to hear it from them). Sometimes it is more beneficial to ask of ourselves instead, “How is it that I believe?” “If the Church is not true, what would be, and what would I do about that? (though I'm not sure where such a question would com from!)” and “How much do my perceptions / misperceptions define what is wrong with me, versus the other way around?” As with all questions of a spiritual nature, it is best to go to God for help in answering them.
The Nehor Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 http://www.theculturalhallpodcast.com/2015/01/why-i-left-the-cultural-hall/What do you guys think? A few points:1) This seems to be the standard story of those who describe losing their faith--they live the gospel more perfectly than I do it seems, but are never able to gain a testimony. How can I believe and they are left hanging with nothing?2) If the church is not true, how does one account for someone like me convincing myself by going through the motions, and the other going through the same motions, but unable to Comice themselves? Difference in human psychology?3) Do you think one of the problems is with the culture of the church with regards to testimonies? i.e. "Knowing" the church is true when it really is "believing" and those who are struggling thinking "something is wrong with me"?Thoughts?1) A fair number are liars. I can think of one instance of a guy I grew up with who later left over historical issues. Before he left he waxed almost poetical about how dedicated to the gospel and the church and how betrayed he felt. I just happened to know that that was complete self-deception or an outright lie. His knowledge of the gospel was shallow and his dedication to its principles shallower.2) too hypothetical for me.3) Speaking for myself I actually know. Some just believe. They are probably stronger than I am and the Lord trusts them more. 1
Avatar4321 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I always have never met someone in the church who does what they are supposed to do all the time.I'm also a bit confused how s is talking about going to the temple for the first time and ye saying she regularly went to the temple.and I can't say I've ever heard someone in the church say another person is going to hell.but who knows. People have different experiences.the Lord doesn't ask that we know things immediately. He asks that we believe at first. I don't really think we should say we know something when we dont.take plural marriage. I believe the early saints were commanded. But o can't say I've ever received a witness that they were.I have received a witness that Joseph was a prophet, that he book of Mormon is true and more importantly that Jesus is my savior.I don't really know how to answer the questions 3
Calm Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I can't say I've ever heard someone in the church say another person is going to hell I have heard this about child abusers, rapists and murderers…but never in the sense of traditional Christian hell, but rather they will have to suffer as they made others suffer. There is an assumption that there is no repentance in the context.
Calm Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'm also a bit confused how s is talking about going to the temple for the first time and ye saying she regularly went to the temple.If I understand her, she didn't go to the temple up to somewhat over a year ago, at which time she took temple prep classes and then attended the temple at least for one night. I don't know how long the temple prep class lasts or how long someone is supposed to attend before getting a recommend, but it seems like that she probably had her recommend for around a year or so. Another sentence talks about spending a lot of time doing things and she includes the temple so it seems like she attended frequently in the past year at least for a time, but since then has stopped. She does not however identify just how long this was for or how many times total, so minimum one time which everything could be read as being, but more likely imo a number of times over several months. Perhaps she clarifies in the comments?
LJP Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I feel as though she is quite depressed. I also believe that she is likely going to return again or else she will find out how alone this world is without the gospel and the gift of the Holy Ghost. In some ways I understand her pain, but I think blurting it out might be a dangerous thing because it only cements her decision more and may also strengthen the doubts of others. I do know that the greatest things that happened to me that snapped me out of my pity and doubt was when my parents had a significant marriage crises, or when my dad became ill and died, (I was so humbled that I fell on my knees in pain) or on a happier note, when I decided to read the Book of Mormon in a month. To do that, I had to get off Facebook and I had to fill every extra moment I could reading it. I felt my testiminy grow. So I really believe that there is more that this one sister could do to help her gain a testiminy. I honestly think she is deceiving herself. 1
SteveO Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 The reason I posted this is because I had an eerily similar discussion with a roommate about two years ago...did EVERYTHING right--I mean, almost as perfect and as upright as the Biblical Job. But like the blog post, he came to the same conclusion that the church wasn't true. Like The Nehor, I know for a fact my roommate was at best delusional and at worst shamelessly lying. But his "justification" has always struck me: the only reason people like myself are still active is because we've invested so much time and energy (mission, tithing, etc) that we've convinced ourselves that this church is still true. We WANT it to be true, so it is. Yet these people who have supposedly invested just as much time and energy (apparently even more devotedly than myself) somehow found a way to "unplug" themselves from the Matrix. Their own justification falls apart. If our investment has such a powerful effect that it keeps us blind to the "truth"--should it not have had a similar effect on them? More so given that their investment was so much more pure and determined? I see this argument thrown around by people who leave the church constantly, and it doesn't really hold up. Thanks for the responses! 2
Duncan Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 The reason I posted this is because I had an eerily similar discussion with a roommate about two years ago...did EVERYTHING right--I mean, almost as perfect and as upright as the Biblical Job. But like the blog post, he came to the same conclusion that the church wasn't true. Like The Nehor, I know for a fact my roommate was at best delusional and at worst shamelessly lying.But his "justification" has always struck me: the only reason people like myself are still active is because we've invested so much time and energy (mission, tithing, etc) that we've convinced ourselves that this church is still true. We WANT it to be true, so it is. Yet these people who have supposedly invested just as much time and energy (apparently even more devotedly than myself) somehow found a way to "unplug" themselves from the Matrix. Their own justification falls apart. If our investment has such a powerful effect that it keeps us blind to the "truth"--should it not have had a similar effect on them? More so given that their investment was so much more pure and determined? I see this argument thrown around by people who leave the church constantly, and it doesn't really hold up. Thanks for the responses! what do you make of people that get a response that the Church is true? I have never heard of anyone getting a no response. I think too people don't want the answer because of fear etc.
sdc999 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 what do you make of people that get a response that the Church is true? I have never heard of anyone getting a no response. I think too people don't want the answer because of fear etc. I get the same thing out of a person who gets a response to anything. Examples. People pray to see if the church is true. People pray to see if the one they are dating is the "one" for time and all eternity. People pray for a sick loved one to be healed. In all of these examples, I have seen very spiritual people come back with affirmations that the Lord has 'manifested' to them so they know, not believe, but know of the truth. Also, in all of these examples, I have seen people have to explain why the Lord's answer was not right. Your last sentence explains a lot. If the person doesn't get the answer that you got, then that person obviously was doing something wrong, ie. it's their fault. I have seen quite a few temple sealed divorces and sick people die after being assured by the Lord of the opposite. But that could never happen about the confirmation of the church being true....
Bikeemikey Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Does anyone here think it is possible people may get a "No" answer to the question of our church because God doesn't want them in the church at that time, maybe God wants them to be on a different path?Also, from a religious perspective asking God if one's church is true is exceptionally uncommon in most of Christianity. Most people pray to develop faith in God, hope in Chirst, and the presence of Grace to help them overcome trails and struggles. In Mormonism we seem to believe that the prime purpose of Gods communication with us to first prove the church is not true, not to prove to us that God is in fact true.Also, anyone want to take a stab at what true means when it is applied to the church?
Mars Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Does anyone here think it is possible people may get a "No" answer to the question of our church because God doesn't want them in the church at that time, maybe God wants them to be on a different path?Also, from a religious perspective asking God if one's church is true is exceptionally uncommon in most of Christianity. Most people pray to develop faith in God, hope in Chirst, and the presence of Grace to help them overcome trails and struggles.In Mormonism we seem to believe that the prime purpose of Gods communication with us to first prove the church is not true, not to prove to us that God is in fact true.Also, anyone want to take a stab at what true means when it is applied to the church? Good question and gooder observation, imo I think it began with Joseph Smith. The religious fervor that characterized his setting compelled him to explore which Church had the authority to act in God's name. Were he primarily concerned with developing a relationship with Jesus, I doubt he would have formulated the question in his mind about which one was 'correct.' It wouldn't have occurred to him, because all Christian faiths do a good job (I'm speculating here and interspersing my own opinion and conjecture - the best kinds of evidence!) of preaching conversion to Christ. Joseph Smith gave us the quote "No man can be saved in ignorance," mind you. It seems to me that a correct understanding of God's nature will necessarily permeate and alter our relationship with Him. As such, our ability to know God is a function of our knowledge. The body of believers, organized by God's authority, created around the channels of revelation that will bring a man or woman closer to Christ in that body of believers more effectively and with the most correct understanding - we'll call that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you want authority, if you want saving ordinances, if you want to hear more of what God has said in addition to the Bible, then boy have we got a church for you. I realize how arrogant that can sound. It's not a statement of chest-beating or look-how-awesome-we-are-and-how-your-church-sucks. It's not like that. As for your first question, I believe it's possible. I also believe it's more likely that they just won't get an answer because there will be something in their lives, hearts, or desires that will prevent them from accepting the light and knowledge were it to be communicated to them. Edited January 19, 2015 by Mars
Duncan Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I get the same thing out of a person who gets a response to anything. Examples. People pray to see if the church is true. People pray to see if the one they are dating is the "one" for time and all eternity. People pray for a sick loved one to be healed. In all of these examples, I have seen very spiritual people come back with affirmations that the Lord has 'manifested' to them so they know, not believe, but know of the truth. Also, in all of these examples, I have seen people have to explain why the Lord's answer was not right. Your last sentence explains a lot. If the person doesn't get the answer that you got, then that person obviously was doing something wrong, ie. it's their fault. I have seen quite a few temple sealed divorces and sick people die after being assured by the Lord of the opposite. But that could never happen about the confirmation of the church being true.... well, not to be tic tac about something but If I did something and got a response and the other person didn't get the same response but possibly didn't do all the things I did to get the response then and you're right, answers come from God not me or anyone else and he knows the hearts of men
ERayR Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Does anyone here think it is possible people may get a "No" answer to the question of our church because God doesn't want them in the church at that time, maybe God wants them to be on a different path? No. 1
sdc999 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Duncan,But according to the LDS faith, the LDS church is the one and only true church; therefore, there can only be one correct answer if someone prays. So, like you said, they probably didn't do it right if they didn't get the same answer as you. So, it is the individual's fault and not God telling them something differently or not telling them something at all. I got those great feelings when I prayed if the church was true. I got those same feelings when I prayed for understanding of polygamy the way it was explained by my leaders and relatives (oh, wait: the essays corrected those feelings). So now, does credibility apply more to one than the other? Oh, I didn't stop there. I prayed for understanding of many things that were taught to me. You know, don't just assume anything you hear from your leaders. That's blind faith. Go out and get your own testimony of what they said and then you can know it's true. Man, I must have been a terrible at praying for the holy ghost to testify so many inaccuracies to me.
The Nehor Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Does anyone here think it is possible people may get a "No" answer to the question of our church because God doesn't want them in the church at that time, maybe God wants them to be on a different path?God can do as he likes but I doubt it. If they follow Moroni's promise and agod does not answer it brings God's honesty into question.
sdc999 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Nehor,That is circular logic."If they follow Moroni's promise and agod does not answer it brings God's honesty into question." If Joe Blow off the street wrote a book and had the same passage, "ask..." would God be dishonest in not answering? One has to pre-assume the book is of God in order for the passage to have validity.
Tacenda Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 what do you make of people that get a response that the Church is true? I have never heard of anyone getting a no response. I think too people don't want the answer because of fear etc. Surprised you've never heard of anyone that gets a "no" response, I've read it happening, never met someone so that might be what you mean. Or maybe that is somewhat slim, but what about those that get nothing at all or no response, have you heard of that happening very often? I have.
bluebell Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Does anyone here think it is possible people may get a "No" answer to the question of our church because God doesn't want them in the church at that time, maybe God wants them to be on a different path? I don't believe that God would ever lie to accomplish His purposes.
Mars Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Moroni's promise is meant for confirmation its 3 conditions: sincere desire - kinda obviousreal intent - willing to change life based on answerfaith in Jesus (remember, 'faith' can even be a desire per the book's own definitions) - contextualizes the point of figuring out whether or not the book is authentic and that there really were Nephites. if true, it'll change the knowledge and understanding of grace, repentance, faith, priesthood authority, resurrection, etc... so, no... not circular imo
The Nehor Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Nehor,That is circular logic."If they follow Moroni's promise and agod does not answer it brings God's honesty into question." If Joe Blow off the street wrote a book and had the same passage, "ask..." would God be dishonest in not answering? One has to pre-assume the book is of God in order for the passage to have validity.I am speaking from the perspective of someone who got an answer hearing someone else claim they did not.
ERayR Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Moroni's promise is meant for confirmation its 3 conditions: sincere desire - kinda obviousreal intent - willing to change life based on answerfaith in Jesus (remember, 'faith' can even be a desire per the book's own definitions) - contextualizes the point of figuring out whether or not the book is authentic and that there really were Nephites. if true, it'll change the knowledge and understanding of grace, repentance, faith, priesthood authority, resurrection, etc... so, no... not circular imo I think where most have a problem is with #2. The sincere desire is there but the intent -willingness to change - is lacking. Most want a confirmation of our current status. 1
Mars Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 unwilling to change = pride = the great stumbling block of zion it damns us and limits our progression - be it an answer to a prayer about the book of mormon, or a full fledged member who starts to get cold in their testimony and stops learning new things
rockpond Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I don't have any answers to the OP. Those are tough questions that many wrestle with. I have a friend who has lived the gospel (mission, temple marriage, kids, active, serves faithfully in callings, attends the temple with his wife, loves the church and his family) and through all of this has desired an answer but still feels that he has never received a spiritual witness. His intent is to go on living the gospel as he has with the hope (but no longer an expectation) of receiving that confirmation. I believe he'll be blessed immensely for the way he has committed himself to his family and church in the face of such uncertainty.
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