The Process Of Leaving The Church--One Example

[Mars]

I don't have any answers to the OP.  Those are tough questions that many wrestle with.

 

I have a friend who has lived the gospel (mission, temple marriage, kids, active, serves faithfully in callings, attends the temple with his wife, loves the church and his family) and through all of this has desired an answer but still feels that he has never received a spiritual witness.  His intent is to go on living the gospel as he has with the hope (but no longer an expectation) of receiving that confirmation.

 

I believe he'll be blessed immensely for the way he has committed himself to his family and church in the face of such uncertainty.

 

that's a bummer.

 

i know a few in my circle of friends who are the same way.  it sucks for them and i empathize.  sympathize?  empathize?  whichever.

[Kenngo1969]

... and I can't say I've ever heard someone in the church say another person is going to hell. ...

 

Never heard of J. Golden Kimball, eh?

[Scott Lloyd]

1) A fair number are liars. I can think of one instance of a guy I grew up with who later left over historical issues. Before he left he waxed almost poetical about how dedicated to the gospel and the church and how betrayed he felt. I just happened to know that that was complete self-deception or an outright lie. His knowledge of the gospel was shallow and his dedication to its principles shallower.

2) too hypothetical for me.

3) Speaking for myself I actually know. Some just believe. They are probably stronger than I am and the Lord trusts them more.

Even if they are not lying, it is a function of human nature to be selective when giving personal accounts, especially if one is trying to establish a point or making an effort to persuade. I think it quite likely that in most instances we are not being made privy to the whole story.

 

I'm of the same mind as you: This is too hypothetical for me.

[Avatar4321]

I don't believe that God would ever lie to accomplish His purposes.

nor do I. We have to remember that moroni's challenge isn't that we pray to learn if the church is true. We can. But the promise is that He will reveal that the Book of Mormon is true. We should have people start there.

[canard78]

http://www.theculturalhallpodcast.com/2015/01/why-i-left-the-cultural-hall/

What do you guys think? A few points:

1) This seems to be the standard story of those who describe losing their faith--they live the gospel more perfectly than I do it seems, but are never able to gain a testimony. How can I believe and they are left hanging with nothing?

2) If the church is not true, how does one account for someone like me convincing myself by going through the motions, and the other going through the same motions, but unable to Comice themselves? Difference in human psychology?

3) Do you think one of the problems is with the culture of the church with regards to testimonies? i.e. "Knowing" the church is true when it really is "believing" and those who are struggling thinking "something is wrong with me"?

1. I don't think there is any such thing as a "standard story of those who describe losing their faith" - I think there are many complex, painful and personal stories. I've said for a while that trying to measure or categorise a process like that (as Dehlin did) is fundamentally flawed. I think the only way to truly measure something like that would be brain scans, during the process of faith loss, coupled with regular qualitative interviews (preferably with a trained psychologist). Given this is logistically approaching impossible we might simply need to say: "it's complicated... and personal." The assumptions made on both sides of the faith line about why others lose their own will almost always be over-simplified and inaccurate.

2&3 There's a great book out called How God Changes your Brain. It's worth a look. Neuroscience suggests we really are predisposed to certain beliefs or non-beliefs. Environmental influences will certainly have an influence (e.g. It's unlikely I'll ever be drawn to an obscure religion from the rainforest), but the type of religious perspective and practice you live will have a relationship with how your brain is built and which parts of the brain are more/less active.

[canard78]

nor do I. We have to remember that moroni's challenge isn't that we pray to learn if the church is true. We can. But the promise is that He will reveal that the Book of Mormon is true. We should have people start there.

So what's happening when people get spiritual experiences and witnesses that contradict ours? Should we assume they are all:

a) Liars

b) Being deceived by Satan

c) Getting a false read of the experience

And if any of the above are possible... How do you know that's not what has happened to you?

At the end of the following blogpost I shared 7 different testimonies. There's a mixture of Mormon, other Christian and non-Christian faiths in there. They sound remarkably different and yet have witnesses of things that contradict Mormon perspectives.

http://manyotherhands.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/what-is-lifes-priority-is-it-knowing-or.html?m=1

[Avatar4321]

I'll leave that to God. Though o find it interesting that those who get other answers are those who at the same time deny revelation or God exist. Makes me think they aren't being truthful

[why me]

http://www.theculturalhallpodcast.com/2015/01/why-i-left-the-cultural-hall/

What do you guys think? A few points:

1) This seems to be the standard story of those who describe losing their faith--they live the gospel more perfectly than I do it seems, but are never able to gain a testimony. How can I believe and they are left hanging with nothing?

2) If the church is not true, how does one account for someone like me convincing myself by going through the motions, and the other going through the same motions, but unable to Comice themselves? Difference in human psychology?

3) Do you think one of the problems is with the culture of the church with regards to testimonies? i.e. "Knowing" the church is true when it really is "believing" and those who are struggling thinking "something is wrong with me"?

Thoughts?

 

Tread carefully. We do not want the board used for exit stories.

I think that the question that needs to be asked: Why do lds people need to post such letters? Why must they make their exist public? What is served by such letters on the internet or such a statement? People lose faith all the time in their religions. This happens because of life circumstances, personal growth, changing narratives etc. But why must the lds make it public?

 

If I am a yankee fan and  I lose my faith in the yankees and become a met fan should I post my lost faith letter in the yankees?

[Calm]

1. I don't think there is any such thing as a "standard story of those who describe losing their faith" - I think there are many complex, painful and personal stories. 

 

I would tend to agree, however as people hang out with each other and tell each other their stories, these stories tend to converge as language is shared and used by others.  And then the very alteration of how the story is told affects the memory of the experience.  This happens with many types of events for people, including conversions and deconversions.

[canard78]

I would tend to agree, however as people hang out with each other and tell each other their stories, these stories tend to converge as language is shared and used by others. And then the very alteration of how the story is told affects the memory of the experience. This happens with many types of events for people, including conversions and deconversions.

Yes, I agree that the narratives have a good chance of converging and even the memory can be distorted.

That's why I'd love to research it at the time it was happening.