What Beliefs (If Any) Do You As A Member Hold Differently Than The Official Church Position?

[JLHPROF]

This thread has definitely given me some things to think about.

 

Only positive I hope.  I'd hate to think this thread caused you to question anything.

No matter what people may have as their doctrinal opinions, in the end, the gospel is true.

Edited November 7, 2014 by JLHPROF

[mfbukowski]

I disagree there, though I might suggest that the act of praying is what helps... in other words, we help ourselves by stopping what hasn't worked (our searching), taking a break to refocus, and perhaps thinking of the situation in a new way or looking at our surroundings differently. So praying to God can help us find our keys.

I also think of Him as a real father, so he might have concerns for our small concerns, like good fathers should.

That's exactly it.  God is within us.  We stop and think deeply about what we did with the keys and God tells us. God is our best self, the Ideal Human inside of us.  At least that is the way we experience him, as being inside us.  He is the "still small voice", not the tempest outside.

Edited November 7, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

That's exactly it. God is within us. We stop and think deeply about what we did with the keys and God tells us. God is our best self, the Ideal Human inside of us. At least that is the way we experience him, as being inside us. He is the "still small voice", not the tempest outside.

That's a very good way of explaining it. He is with us in spirit. Nice feeling for sure! Now if only we don't tune Him out like He doesn't exist.

[Silhouette]

Only positive I hope. I'd hate to think this thread caused you to question anything.

No matter what people may have as their doctrinal opinions, in the end, the gospel is true.

No, it hasn't caused me to question anything. Just given me some things to ponder

[cdowis]

In short, I took everything I've been taught literally. I saw no reason not to. I let myself be guided by what I sensed from the Spirit. The Spirit hasn't guided me to have any doubts whatsoever in how I perceived the Gospel and it's teachings. So if I have been wrong all these years, what is it that I was listening to?

I don't blindly follow. I do pray and seek guidance on teachings that I have questions about or am unsure of. The Holy Ghost (or something...I am not sure WHAT now) had always testified to me that things are true the way I perceived them, which again was at face value. It has never occurred to me to view things differently than how Scripture and the Gospel present them.

I just always figured that what I didn't understand would be made clear to me in the Lord's own good time, so I never let things bother me.

Apparently I've been naive in the extreme, ever since the day I had my first discussion.

 

Let's give this some thought by looking elsewhere for a model for thinking.

 

It would be safe, for example, to assume that in geometry, it is a fact that parallel lines never meet, right?  That is the "definition" of parallel lines.  But what happens if we do not accept that "fact".  What happens then.

 

Well, a whole new world opens up to us, and that is known as non-Euclidean geometry  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry.  What happens when we change our assumptions of facts (doctrine) -- we can then see the world differently, EVEN when we acknowledge that this is not the "real world".

 

Whenever I give the idea that death occurred before Adam (during the previous days of creation) I am careful to state that this opposes established doctrine.   I simply take off my "church hat" and put on my thinking cap -- I do a virtual or thought experiment on a "what if" condition.

 

There is nothing wrong with that, as long as I stand firmly in the real world of established doctrine.  It's just a thought experiment.

[Mahoneymoriancumer]

Just because we have different beliefs or experiences doesn't mean any of us are better than the other.  It is what we do for each other in life that makes us matter.  If you are trying to help others and love God to the best of your ability, you have the first two commandments down pat and the rest, don't worry about along with all the doctrine, it will come in time to all who love God.

  Excellent point.  I would add that though many of us may hold some beliefs or opinions that are not lock-step with all of the fold, they are just that: opinions.  My personal beliefs on the story of Adam and Eve  do not mean that I am 100% right, nor does it mean that others are wrong if they interpret the story differently.  It merely means we are all still in the process of learning and understanding, and I, for one, find that process exhilarating!  One of the pleasures of the Gospel is when a long-misunderstood principle becomes clear, and understanding becomes its own reward.  What strikes me most at times is how great and intelligent men and women come to the same conclusions about so many doctrines and principles, which to me shows the divine guidance of the Spirit in the process.

[mfbukowski]

Let's give this some thought by looking elsewhere for a model for thinking.

 

It would be safe, for example, to assume that in geometry, it is a fact that parallel lines never meet, right?  That is the "definition" of parallel lines.  But what happens if we do not accept that "fact".  What happens then.

 

Well, a whole new world opens up to us, and that is known as non-Euclidean geometry  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry.  What happens when we change our assumptions of facts (doctrine) -- we can then see the world differently, EVEN when we acknowledge that this is not the "real world".

 

Whenever I give the idea that death occurred before Adam (during the previous days of creation) I am careful to state that this opposes established doctrine.   I simply take off my "church hat" and put on my thinking cap -- I do a virtual or thought experiment on a "what if" condition.

 

There is nothing wrong with that, as long as I stand firmly in the real world of established doctrine.  It's just a thought experiment.

An excellent point!

 

And we need to add to that that all we know about anything are really "just thought experiments".   The ideas of science change and are called "paradigm shifts".  theology changes and we call that "continuing revelation" or "revelation line upon line, precept upon precept until we reach a full understanding".

 

It's all the same thing really.   Language changes and our descriptions of things change as we gain more experience.   All we have are thoughts and language and interpretations, there is nothing else out there "to know".   Everything you know- by definition- is a thought in your head, that someone else put there or an interpretation of your experiences you put into words to tell others.  Either way, in is an interpretation of experience.

 

There is no way to get "outside" of the thought experiments that make up the interpretations of how we see the world.

 

We ALL view the world through colored glasses that we can never take off, so it's pointless to worry about what "color" the world "really is" because we will never know, and cannot know.   All we see is seen through human eyes, all we know is known in a human brain, all we hear is heard through human ears.

 

For us that is the only "reality" there is.

Edited November 7, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

That's a very good way of explaining it. He is with us in spirit. Nice feeling for sure! Now if only we don't tune Him out like He doesn't exist.

That is why "he helps us find our keys".   When we pray, we are in total communication with God- which means everything inside our minds.  Our minds contain the information of where we left our keys.  When we are accessing God, we are accessing our "unconscious"- that's just another word for "spirit".

 

All that we know is accessible through the "spirit" or the "unconscious" or the deep world within us.   I don't care about the terminology.  The location of our keys is in the same place.

 

When we make an important decision- we consult all the depth we have within ourselves- some call it our "gut".  That is the same as "the spirit" or "the still small voice".  It is the Ideal Human inside of us, which knows right and wrong and is in tune with the universe- use whatever terms you like- it doesn't matter.

 

So yes, "God the creator of the universe"  DOES care about where we left our keys- because we do.  He knows where we left our keys- because we do.   God the creator of the universe is that Ideal Being inside of us, that knows everything- everything we know and can know.  If you see this, it will revolutionize your life.

 

If YOU exist, HE exists.  He is you- your best self.  George Harrison said this:  "Life goes on within you and without you".   God goes on within us and without us!

Edited November 7, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

No, it hasn't caused me to question anything. Just given me some things to ponder

There IS nothing to question.  You HAVE all the answers inside you, and in speaking to you, I think you know that.  Just go with it and trust your instincts.  That is Alma 32 combined with Moroni 10:4-5, but in more modern language.

 

Trust your gut.  That's the bottom line, put in street terms.

[Rain]

That is why "he helps us find our keys".   When we pray, we are in total communication with God- which means everything inside our minds.  Our minds contain the information of where we left our keys.  When we are accessing God, we are accessing our "unconscious"- that's just another word for "spirit".

 

All that we know is accessible through the "spirit" or the "unconscious" or the deep world within us.   I don't care about the terminology.  The location of our keys is in the same place.

 

When we make an important decision- we consult all the depth we have within ourselves- some call it our "gut".  That is the same as "the spirit" or "the still small voice".  It is the Ideal Human inside of us, which knows right and wrong and is in tune with the universe- use whatever terms you like- it doesn't matter.

 

So yes, "God the creator of the universe"  DOES care about where we left our keys- because we do.  He knows where we left our keys- because we do.   God the creator of the universe is that Ideal Being inside of us, that knows everything- everything we know and can know.  If you see this, it will revolutionize your life.

 

If YOU exist, HE exists.  He is you- your best self.  George Harrison said this:  "Life goes on within you and without you".   God goes on within us and without us!

 

Except that most of the time when I prayed about "keys" I didn't have the answer.  Someone else moved them.

[mfbukowski]

Except that most of the time when I prayed about "keys" I didn't have the answer.  Someone else moved them.

But God can still answer that one as well. I have experienced many times, "intelligence" coming into my mind and teaching me things that I could not have known. All I am talking about is how I personally experience God- since I cannot know how anyone else experiences Him.

[cinepro]

I simply take off my "church hat" and put on my thinking cap -- I do a virtual or thought experiment on a "what if" condition.

Wow. I must be reading that wrong.

Edited November 8, 2014 by cinepro

[Rain]

That is why "he helps us find our keys".   When we pray, we are in total communication with God- which means everything inside our minds.  Our minds contain the information of where we left our keys.  When we are accessing God, we are accessing our "unconscious"- that's just another word for "spirit".

 

 

 teaching me things that I could not have known.

I see this as two different things, which is why I said what I said.  I do think He helps us access things through things we have forgotten, I just got the impression you were saying it was always this way.

[mfbukowski]

I see this as two different things, which is why I said what I said.  I do think He helps us access things through things we have forgotten, I just got the impression you were saying it was always this way.

The key is to understand that we see the world from inside our own personal mental bubble, which filters all that gets in. I would not say it was "two different things" once we understand this- what is real to us seems to be both within our minds and yet coming from outside so the difference is never all that clear.

[mfbukowski]

I see this as two different things, which is why I said what I said.  I do think He helps us access things through things we have forgotten, I just got the impression you were saying it was always this way.

I was thinking more about this point and I am glad you raised it because it helped me to recall another principle that I believe that relates to this. Of course, though I try to structure my statements so that both believers and non-believers will understand the same truths, this way of seeing it is for believers only.

I don't usually like Plato's philosophy, but there is one point he makes that I think applies here and also applies to Mormonism. We agree with Plato on one point, and that is that we existed before we come to earth, and will also exist after we leave. Plato sees all knowledge as a remembrance of what we learned before we came here. In LDS terms, we lived in the pre-earth life with Our Father, and our spirits came here to receive a body, and we came through a "veil of forgetfulness" which wiped out our previous memories of the life before this one.

I think that as we pray, and need to know more than is possible for us to know naturally, our spirits are allowed to restore to us bits and pieces of what our spirits knew in pre-earth life.

When we pray, then, when we are accessing our deepest selves and the knowledge of our spirits, we can be allowed to know what seems like "things we never knew before", some of which we may have indeed known before we came to earth. To us, it may seem like new knowledge, but yet it is so deep within us that it is actually very old knowledge we have perhaps never accessed before.

Just a thought...

[Damien the Leper]

Contrary to church doctrine, I believe Calmoriah is Nemesis the Moderator.

I also believe the UMWs here on the board are secret members of Ordain Women.

[Calm]

The first is heresy, but won't get you excommunicated; the second is pure apostate propaganda and rates as immediate excommunication without a court, followed by having to listen to 72 hours straight Helen Reddy's I Am Woman sitting in the labour section of the maternity ward.

[Damien the Leper]

The first is heresy, but won't get you excommunicated; the second is pure apostate propaganda and rates as immediate excommunication without a court, followed by having to listen to 72 hours straight Helen Reddy's I Am Woman sitting in the labour section of the maternity ward.

Ouch! That's harsh. :-)

I didn't know you could be so mean.

[Deborah]

Don't have areas where I disagree so much but feel a particular statement doesn't apply to me or my circumstances and so really don't heed it. On the other hand there are sometimes things said, not as doctrine but as what I feel are a person's interpretation of doctrine. I often feel one's personal experiences in life or their own educational upbringing tends to cause some to say things rather than the actual doctrine or principle.

[Garden Girl]

Contrary to church doctrine, I believe Calmoriah is Nemesis the Moderator.

I also believe the UMWs here on the board are secret members of Ordain Women.

 

Uh... No...

 

 

The first is heresy, but won't get you excommunicated; the second is pure apostate propaganda and rates as immediate excommunication without a court, followed by having to listen to 72 hours straight Helen Reddy's I Am Woman sitting in the labour section of the maternity ward.

 

Hear, Hear!!!

 

GG

[Rob Osborn]

Lets see,things I disagree with-

1. That there are three literal separated worlds for the saved to go to after the millenium. I believe all the saved will be here on this earth as one body in one kingdom

2. That our church has a monopoly on the prophets. I believe true prophets can be found at all levels both within and without the church.

3. All children are automatically advanced to the CK who die before beconing accountable.

4. That Satan was going to force us to be obedient by taking away our agency to choose sin. I believe Satan sought to bring us into the bondage of sin from the beginning and then reign over us in unrigtheous dominion.

5. That the garden od Eden or where Adam was driven from to till the ground was located somewhere in Missouri o the USA.

6. That women do not hold priesthood powers. Women receive the priesthood powers in the temple through covenants. For whatever reasons though, women are not specifically ordained to an office or calling even though they have the power within them to.

7. The structure of Seminary to teach youth. I believe Seminary teachers should be locally called leaders by stake presidents and then set apart for such calling.

8. That the modern church and ordinance rituals are exactly the same as existed in Adam's day.

[Calm]

"That our church has a monopoly on the prophets"

Define prophets as I think there is doctrine that would agree with you depending on how this is defined.

Isn't 6 what was taught two conferences ago as doctrine?

Given that there have been changes in some ordinances in my lifetime, I don't think the Church teaches they are exactly identical.

Edited November 9, 2014 by calmoriah

[altersteve]

I'm becoming unsure that getting a tattoo, in and of itself, is a "sin." I don't know if that idea's doctrine or just a cultural thing, but I don't think it's true. What if your tattoo is a scripture quote or a line from a hymn?

Edited November 10, 2014 by altersteve

[Garden Girl]

I'm becoming unsure that getting a tattoo, in and of itself, is a "sin." I don't know if that idea's doctrine or just a cultural thing, but I don't think it's true. What if your tattoo is a scripture quote or a line from a hymn?

 

Good morning, altersteve...

I don't know that the Church says a tatoo is a "sin" per se... more like the wearing of multiple earrings or piercings... we avoid these things out of respect for our bodies... the temples for our spirit.   Reminds me of Isaiah 3:16-24 when Isaiah describes the daughters of Zion with their haughtiness... their tinkling ornaments... their earrings, rings and nose jewels... I think tattoos would also fall in this category...

 

GG

[mnn727]

7. The structure of Seminary to teach youth. I believe Seminary teachers should be locally called leaders by stake presidents and then set apart for such calling.

 

That's how its worked in 4 states I have lived in.