rockpond Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 God should have everything to do with what our prophets decide.You may feel that He should but history does not support such a conclusion.
rockpond Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 So if God can change His mind then there's a chance He could change it about gay marriage.Or He never changed His mind and it just took us many decades to understand His will. Likewise it may take us time to fully understand His will for His gay children.
The Nehor Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 So if God can change His mind then there's a chance He could change it about gay marriage.He does not change his mind. He could announce that gay marriage is now allowable. He could restrict the Priesthood to only people with freckles and green eyes if he chooses to. He can abolish the Word of Wisdom or alter tithing to 5% or 75%. This would not mean he changed his mind. He knows the end from the beginning and would have known and planned for any such change. 3
Kenngo1969 Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 To each, his or her own, but personally, I don't think God cares if we think He's racist, sexist, homophobic, otherwise bigoted, or politically incorrect. (He may well care what we do as a result of thinking that, but I think He meant what He told Isaiah in Chapter 55, Verses 8 and 9. Personally, I believe Isaiah 55:8-9 and numerous similar scriptures.) I don't wish to cast aspersions at my fellow Latter-day Saints, but I do think that a lot of energy is wasted worrying about things that are outside of our stewardship and wishing that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were a more democratic institution. (After all, how could more of something like democracy possibly be considered a bad thing?) The only real problem with it as applied to the Church is that democracy-versus-theocracy is a zero-sum proposition: the more democracy there is, the less theocracy there is. As I told our good Roman Catholic friend, Rory, in another thread: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64286-the-new-anti-mormons-are-lds/?p=1209424729 I think what I've said here is germane to Rory's thread, as well. 1
Nofear Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 So if God can change His mind then there's a chance He could change it about gay marriage. That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.' Dean C. Jessee (editor), The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, p. 507-509 While technically possible, I do not see Church sanctioned gay marriage ever coming to pass. Not pre-millennium, not post-millennium, not ever. 1
rockpond Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 While technically possible, I do not see Church sanctioned gay marriage ever coming to pass. Not pre-millennium, not post-millennium, not ever. I see it possibly happening within my life but if not, at least within my childrens' lifetime.
JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 I see it possibly happening within my life but if not, at least within my childrens' lifetime. Well, it would be a good way to trigger the setting in order and the second coming.Because in my opinion if the Church ever did allow it that would be about as far out of order as God would allow them to get.They would definitely have fulfilled Isaiah 24. 1
JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 So if God can change His mind then there's a chance He could change it about gay marriage. God does NOT change his mind. He restores and revokes certain laws. We gain and lose certain blessings when he does. But the laws and the blessings attached are eternal. But God does NOT change - that's scriptural, in dozens of places. He does not disapprove of something one day and approve of it the next. 1
Tacenda Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 God does NOT change his mind. He restores and revokes certain laws. We gain and lose certain blessings when he does. But the laws and the blessings attached are eternal.But God does NOT change - that's scriptural, in dozens of places. He does not disapprove of something one day and approve of it the next.But it does seem he has approved first and then disapproved, therefore changed His mind.
JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) But it does seem he has approved first and then disapproved, therefore changed His mind. Then He is not God. - Mormon 9:19 - And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles." Something is not right by God one day and wrong the next (or vice versa). Sometimes God gives and revokes laws (consecration, plural marriage), but then we lose the blessing associated with it. It doesn't become wrong. God does NOT change. God's laws do NOT change. Never have in all of scripture. Circumstances may change the law that needs applying, but even that doesn't change the law. That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.' - Joseph Smith Edited October 2, 2014 by JLHPROF 1
ksfisher Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) Well, it would be a good way to trigger the setting in order and the second coming.Because in my opinion if the Church ever did allow it that would be about as far out of order as God would allow them to get.They would definitely have fulfilled Isaiah 24. Ezekiel 9 as well. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ezek/9?lang=eng Edited October 2, 2014 by ksfisher
Kenngo1969 Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 JLHPROF (quoting Joseph Smith): That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.' - Joseph Smith Mere mortals can (albeit imperfectly) recognize gradations in culpability and seriousness and assign blameworthiness accordingly (e.g., any taking of a human life is wrong, on the one hand, versus justifiable homicide, involuntary manslaughter, voluntary manslaughter, heat-of-passion murder, felony murder, and malice-aforethought, premeditated murder, on the other hand). If mere mortals can do it (however imperfectly), then surely God can do it much better. 2
Tacenda Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 Then He is not God. -Something is not right by God one day and wrong the next (or vice versa).Sometimes God gives and revokes laws (consecration, plural marriage), but then we lose the blessing associated with it. It doesn't become wrong.God does NOT change. God's laws do NOT change. Never have in all of scripture.Circumstances may change the law that needs applying, but even that doesn't change the law.Wasn't that said by Joseph when he was justifying polgamy despite having D&C 101 in place at the time?
thesometimesaint Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 The Church adapts how it interacts in world, while not adopting the ways of the world.
Daniel2 Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 There is no evidence that God had anything to do with the priesthood and temple restrictions.In the future, the same will be said on these boards about God and the marriage ban and temple restrictions against same-sex couples.
rockpond Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 In the future, the same will be said on these boards about God and the marriage ban and temple restrictions against same-sex couples. Undoubtedly.
Storm Rider Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 In the future, the same will be said on these boards about God and the marriage ban and temple restrictions against same-sex couples. You are at least consistent with this type of sheer disjoint with all things that have to do with LDS theology, doctrine, and teachings of Christ. It is utter tripe, but you are consistent in trying to lead people astray with this pseudo pontification. Of course, you do have your followers that are just as....there is no other word, ignorant of the gospel of Christ. Itching ears comes to mind. 2
The Nehor Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 It will go on until the work of the Lord is done.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) Our missionaries are going forth to different nations. The Standard of Truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop this work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, and calumny may defame; but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, 'til it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear; 'til the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and The Great Jehovah shall say, "The Work is done!" Joseph Smith to John Wentworth, ca. 1842 Also just quoted this, from Elder Bruce R. McConkie's October 1984 General Conference address, on another thread; it bears repeating here: The Church is like a great caravan—organized, prepared, following an appointed course, with its captains of tens and captains of hundreds all in place. What does it matter if a few barking dogs snap at the heels of the weary travelers? Or that predators claim those few who fall by the way? The caravan moves on. Is there a ravine to cross, a miry mud hole to pull through, a steep grade to climb? So be it. The oxen are strong and the teamsters wise. The caravan moves on. Are there storms that rage along the way, floods that wash away the bridges, deserts to cross, and rivers to ford? Such is life in this fallen sphere. The caravan moves on. Ahead is the celestial city, the eternal Zion of our God, where all who maintain their position in the caravan shall find food and drink and rest. Thank God that the caravan moves on! Edited October 5, 2014 by Kenngo1969
carbon dioxide Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 There is no evidence that God had anything to do with the priesthood and temple restrictions.I think there is clear evidence that God had some involvement even though we have written revelation that established the practice. From what I have read, David McKay asked the Lord on the issue years before it was changed he he got an answer from the Lord "Not yet" or something to that effect. If the Lord told President Mckay that it was not the time, if he was not in on it when it first was established, the Lord was fully in on it at that point of time.
carbon dioxide Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 The Church may adjust a few minor thinks to adapt to a changing world but it is important to maintain the foundational principles of the Church without compromise. We should be focuses on doing what God asks and not appeasing the world. If that means having fewer converts or the church going through a period of contraction in membership, so be it. Members worry too much about numbers and numbers really do not matter. Noah did not convert anyone and that was fine. He did what the Lord asked and he prevailed. The world needs to adjust to the Lords standards and if they chose not to they will be swept off just as the people in Noah time were. The Lord always wins in the end. There are many witnesses from Book of Mormon times that are now the spirit prison who will testify of that.
rockpond Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 I think there is clear evidence that God had some involvement even though we have written revelation that established the practice. From what I have read, David McKay asked the Lord on the issue years before it was changed he he got an answer from the Lord "Not yet" or something to that effect. If the Lord told President Mckay that it was not the time, if he was not in on it when it first was established, the Lord was fully in on it at that point of time.Clear evidence? A second hand re-telling of "not yet" over 100 years after the ban was implemented?If God was going to order that an entire race be prevented from access to saving ordinances, I think that there would be better "evidence" than that. And since the official position of the church is now "we don't know", I think you're hard pressed to argue that it was definitely from God.
guerreiro9 Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Clear evidence? A second hand re-telling of "not yet" over 100 years after the ban was implemented?If God was going to order that an entire race be prevented from access to saving ordinances, I think that there would be better "evidence" than that. And since the official position of the church is now "we don't know", I think you're hard pressed to argue that it was definitely from God.They weren't prevented access they were delayed access. It wasn't an entire race of people it was the small handful that happened to have been in the church and worthy at the time.As a parent I regularly withhold things from one child or another for various reasons. Many times I withhold things from a child through no fault of his/her own because I know it is better for the family as a whole. I like to assume that as a parent I am wiser than my children. I extend my father in heaven the same courtesy.As members of the church we believe in a God who personally visits the Earth and sends countless other angels to do so as well. When Joseph Smith delayed living polygamy as commanded an Angel with a drawn sword was sent to encourage him. Either the entire founding narrative of the church is a lie, or God was not opposed to leaving the priesthood ban in place until 1978.I know what I believe.-guerreiro9 2
The Nehor Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 If we adapt enough can we get the people in the great and spacious to stop mocking us and all get along? 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 If God was going to order that an entire race be prevented from access to saving ordinances ... Correction: No one was denied access to any 'saving ordinances'. 2
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