Tacenda Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 I think the Bible is the most believable of all these thoughts. God is spirit, he came down in the physical form as Jesus to provides the world a Saviour. Hey, he created the world, why can't he be born a mortal? He's incomprehensible isn't he?
Calm Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 ERayR is correct. Adam and Eve had immortal physical bodies in the garden prior to the fall and they were under commandment to multiply and replenish. They weren't spirits. Then they fell to mortality (death).So either they were resurrected or there is a new class of body beyond spirit, mortal, and resurrected (eternal).Have I missed something or aren't we taught that the spirit will never separate from the body of a resurrected being. Or are you claiming that this isn't saying it will never happen again for that person, that it can happen because the body is changed back to a mortal one?
Calm Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) It reads each couple will "make" their own worlds, Joseph called this the "continuation of seeds." It doesn't say "make their worlds", it says "make new worlds". There is a difference. Making new worlds that are under general management---to use the analogy ERay is using---is different than going into private enterprise. "Make new worlds" could mean either or something else. Edited November 11, 2015 by Calm 1
MiserereNobis Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 I am not so much for sitting on clouds playing harps and it gets boring with nothing to do. Ha! Did I say anything about sitting on a cloud and playing a harp...?
Randall57 Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 It doesn't say "make their worlds", it says "make new worlds". There is a difference. Making new worlds that are under general management---to use the analogy ERay is using---is different than going into private enterprise. "Make new worlds" could mean either or something else. This is how it reads... They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. It says "they" will be able to have spirit children, and make new worlds for their child to live on...and do ALL the things that HF has done. We can/will have ALL the power, knowledge, dominion, and glory that HF has...and progress by obedience as he did, and all the Gods before him, then this makes perfect sense. It is what is taught and is called exaltation and eternal life according to the teaching manuals I pasted.. I am not sure how you can read what the manual teaches any other way.
Randall57 Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-36-eternal-life?lang=eng So if this is in a Church manual on the Church website, presumably approved by the Correlation committee, does THAT make it official church doctrine?That is up to you I suppose- but it does make it an official teaching, personally I see not difference. You will have to make that call. The GA believe it and teach/taught it, it is apex of the law of eternal progression, to achieve what HF did. In GP it reads that he wants us to succeed just as he did? We are taught we will be like him and have all he has, and do all he has done. It is what the church teaches., If it is not official doctrine then they had better figure out what we are suppose to believe and straighten it out.
ERayR Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 True.But the teachings of the prophet Brigham Young and the temple (even without the lecture at the veil) point directly to it.The canon of scripture include the symbolic version of Adam and Eve - unless you literally believe Eve was made out of Adam's rib. Or that Adam was made out of mud, as BY put like and "adobe brick"
ERayR Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 Ha! Did I say anything about sitting on a cloud and playing a harp...? It is just the visualization that came to my mind. Tell me what you had in mind.
ERayR Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) This is how it reads... It says "they" will be able to have spirit children, and make new worlds for their child to live on...and do ALL the things that HF has done. We can/will have ALL the power, knowledge, dominion, and glory that HF has...and progress by obedience as he did, and all the Gods before him, then this makes perfect sense. It is what is taught and is called exaltation and eternal life according to the teaching manuals I pasted.. I am not sure how you can read what the manual teaches any other way. I don't think private ownership (. . . own world) has any meaning in the Celestial realms. United Order and stewardship come to mind for me. We really do have a habit of interpreting what we hear and read in a possive manner. Edited November 11, 2015 by ERayR 2
KevinG Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 Ha! Did I say anything about sitting on a cloud and playing a harp...? You are right. I apologize. Being a trumpet player I could think of no more hellish eternal prison than playing the harp. But without the sarcasm and jokes... It does seem that the LDS notion of exaltation is more of a working progression and less of a static state of arrival. Its all good though. I'm sure I will enjoy being with God no matter the details of the agenda. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 This is how it reads... It says "they" will be able to have spirit children, and make new worlds for their child to live on...and do ALL the things that HF has done. We can/will have ALL the power, knowledge, dominion, and glory that HF has...and progress by obedience as he did, and all the Gods before him, then this makes perfect sense. It is what is taught and is called exaltation and eternal life according to the teaching manuals I pasted.. I am not sure how you can read what the manual teaches any other way.You just confirmed what calm(oriah) said by quoting the passage. It doesn't say "make their own worlds."
JLHPROF Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 You just confirmed what calm(oriah) said by quoting the passage. It doesn't say "make their own worlds." I fail to see why "ownership" is the issue. It says we will have spirit children and make worlds for them to live on. So you don't own the world, still sounds like you are making worlds for your spirit children to me.So as far as having "your own planet", this is just splitting hairs. That's like saying does the Bishop have his own ward. Well, he has a ward he presides over, but it belongs to the Church.Same thing here in my opinion - the new earth may belong to the Gods (the Eloheim) but it will be yours to preside over.
stephenpurdy Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 I fail to see why "ownership" is the issue. It says we will have spirit children and make worlds for them to live on. So you don't own the world, still sounds like you are making worlds for your spirit children to me.So as far as having "your own planet", this is just splitting hairs. That's like saying does the Bishop have his own ward. Well, he has a ward he presides over, but it belongs to the Church.Same thing here in my opinion - the new earth may belong to the Gods (the Eloheim) but it will be yours to preside over. I don't think it is splitting hairs. I think it is an important point to say, for example, that the Bishop doesn't "own" the building and does not "own" the people in it. Also, I think we just need to humble ourselves and admit that we don't know exactly how it will be organized, we just understand that we will have spiritual children, and help to create worlds for them to dwell on. -Stephen
JLHPROF Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 I don't think it is splitting hairs. I think it is an important point to say, for example, that the Bishop doesn't "own" the building and does not "own" the people in it. Also, I think we just need to humble ourselves and admit that we don't know exactly how it will be organized, we just understand that we will have spiritual children, and help to create worlds for them to dwell on. -Stephen You are forgetting the last part of the quote - "do ALL the things our Father in Heaven has done."
Randall57 Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 You just confirmed what calm(oriah) said by quoting the passage. It doesn't say "make their own worlds." "... They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done..." So then what does this mean...Please break it down for me? Is this just a co-op type of arraignment where a bunch of Gods get together and make worlds for thier children? I suppose that would agree somewhat with Abraham chapters 4 and 5? But I read it simply for what it says; that we can be like HF, have all that he has, do what he has done, and create worlds for the children I have with my wife. This will be a continuation of seeds as D&C 132 speaks to us, at least how I see it. This is exaltation and eternal life, and is a natural eternal law that allows us to progress, and just like HF, achieve Godhood by strict obedience to these laws and the ordinances in place. "Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as He did. Gospel principles 47" I am not sure how I am misreading this and how I have misunderstood what i was taught for so many years?
Calm Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) It does seem that the LDS notion of exaltation is more of a working progression and less of a static state of arrival. Its all good though. I'm sure I will enjoy being with God no matter the details of the agenda.What I've read of the Beatific Vision, it doesn't sound like it is static at all. Love and adoring grow over time as one feels them, seems like this would be the experience when that love is directed towards God and glorifying him. I still don't 'get' in many ways what the Vision is, but it feels dynamic to me. Edited November 11, 2015 by Calm 1
stephenpurdy Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 You are forgetting the last part of the quote - "do ALL the things our Father in Heaven has done." I think this means to do all that our Father in Heaven has done as our Father in Heaven; not necessarily what God did in mortality as a Christ in another world. Is that where people get the idea that each person will have to be a Christ of a world and atone for the sins of the people on that world? If Christ is doing what the father has done, then that would be the implication. I think that is taking it too far. -stephen
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) I don't think anyone who was born on this earth would want to or be able to atone for all the sins of a world except Christ. I know I would pass on experiencing that pain. I mean seriously who here would honestly want to bleed from every pore and suffer all pains sins and miseries and then get crucified? If that's the only way to exaltation I'll willingly pass. Edited November 11, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie
MiserereNobis Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 It is just the visualization that came to my mind. Tell me what you had in mind. I don't imagine much doing in heaven, but really just being and experiencing the mystery of God directly, immediately, and perfectly. 1
ERayR Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 I don't imagine much doing in heaven, but really just being and experiencing the mystery of God directly, immediately, and perfectly. That doesn't really say anything. It describes nothing to me. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 Are Mormons the only religion that believe in a form of exaltation or being joint heirs with Christ or do other religions believe such can be achieved?
Tony Frank Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 Sorry -- I guess I overreacted to ERayR saying that I wouldn't understand. I have read the King Follet discourse, but it's probably been a year or two. I feel like I have a basic grasp on the issues and I'm definitely not here to argue them (Mormons and mainstream Christians disagree - duh! ). In my understanding, these ideas are not official doctrine (like you said -- not canonical doctrine). I was mainly responding to Tony Frank's bold statement that they are core doctrine and not speculation and I wanted to see what other LDS thought on it, that's all. Sorry to have caused a ruckus Joseph Smith clearly explained in the King Follet discourse that Jesus Christ did what the Father did, which we read about in John 5:19. Jesus Christ led a sinless life. He died for the sins of man. He overcame and was set down in His thrown. Our heavenly Father did the same thing. I dare say that most Latter-day Saints don't really grasp all of that, but they certainly cannot argue with it, unless they want to argue with what Joseph Smith said.
MiserereNobis Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 That doesn't really say anything. It describes nothing to me. I think heaven is beyond description, because any description will obviously fall short, probably be just speculation, and end up most likely just being a symbol (like a sea of glass, etc). Here is the description of the Beatific Vision (heaven) from the Catholic Encyclopedia: "The immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called "vision" to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life. And since in beholding God face to face the created intelligence finds perfect happiness, the vision is termed "beatific"." So, immediate knowledge and perfect happiness. The details we'll figure out when we're there 2
ERayR Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 I think heaven is beyond description, because any description will obviously fall short, probably be just speculation, and end up most likely just being a symbol (like a sea of glass, etc). Here is the description of the Beatific Vision (heaven) from the Catholic Encyclopedia: "The immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called "vision" to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life. And since in beholding God face to face the created intelligence finds perfect happiness, the vision is termed "beatific"." So, immediate knowledge and perfect happiness. The details we'll figure out when we're there No offense intended but to me that sounds like a "Matrix". You just take a cubicle and plug in. A good movie but I don't think I want to spend eternity that way. I much prefer the LDS version of being involve in Father in Heaven's work.
KevinG Posted November 12, 2015 Posted November 12, 2015 Miserere Nobis and ERayR, May you both have the blessings you seek! 2
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