Mormons "getting Their Own Planet" (Merged)

[Randall57]

By following the example and counsel of his Father in heaven.

And btw, the word God has multiple meanings and we are already the same kind of being called God.

This is what the Melchizedek Priesthood manual teaches, that he and all men become Gods by obedience to eternal law. The great Law of progression is the one eternal law that all other laws contribute to. As the brethren teach here ( Benson, Hunter, JFS, Widstoe, Richards, and Callis) there is no other way to exaltation or eternal life.

 

 

 

HOW HE BECAME GOD

Yet, if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today. Then how did He become glorified and exalted and attain His present status of Godhood? In the first place, aeons ago God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new verity He righteously obeyed it. From day to day He exerted His will vigorously, and as a result became thoroughly acquainted with the forces lying about Him. As he gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry, as well as through absolute obedience, His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete. Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He became God by absolute obedience to all the eternal laws of the Gospel—by conforming His actions to all truth, and thereby became the author of eternal truth. Therefore, the road that the Eternal Father followed to Godhood was one of living at all times a dynamic, industrious, and completely righteous life. There is no other way to exaltation. Chapter 17

 

they teach further;

 

 

How MEN MAY BECOME GODS

Thus all men who ascend to the glorious status of Godhood can do so only by one method—by obedience to all the principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Fundamental in the process of obedience to truth is knowledge. Chapter 17

 

[Storm Rider]

Yes, and President Smith in on record that BY and others were wrong on this. I guess we are stuck with picking a prophet that we are comfortable with, I suppose I chose JFS on this issue, that God is all knowing. This may be a good subject for a essay " How knowing and limited is our Heavenly Father?"

 

These are all great areas of speculation, but they are left to us to contemplate and work with the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth.  Men, humans, never stop being human.  Opinions are formed and reformed, refined, until we come to knowing not our opinion, but eternal truths.  

 

I don't think we pick and choose which prophet to follow, but we should choose to study and learn.  These mysteries have little eternal value for us - them have no impact on our salvation.  That does not mean we have not need to learn truth or that we should delay learning; rather, it means that we need not argue about them.  We will not be led in all things; we ourselves must learn to grow spiritually.  

[Randall57]

These are all great areas of speculation, but they are left to us to contemplate and work with the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth.  Men, humans, never stop being human.  Opinions are formed and reformed, refined, until we come to knowing not our opinion, but eternal truths.  

 

I don't think we pick and choose which prophet to follow, but we should choose to study and learn.  These mysteries have little eternal value for us - them have no impact on our salvation.  That does not mean we have not need to learn truth or that we should delay learning; rather, it means that we need not argue about them.  We will not be led in all things; we ourselves must learn to grow spiritually.  

In the end it appears we do pick and choose which prophet or "truth" to follow. The leaders teach today;

 

God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. https://www.lds.org/topics/god-the-father?lang=eng

 

He is perfect and all knowing.

[Ahab]

In the end it appears we do pick and choose which prophet or "truth" to follow. The leaders teach today;

He is perfect and all knowing.

The Holy Spirit should be our guide as the Spirit reveals truth from our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. So it is the Spirit who should tell us when any man is speaking as a prophet. And without that Spirit we won't learn the truth when it is presented to us.

Like how I've told you multiple times that our Father does know everything and yet he still learns because everything isn't a stagnant quantity. There is always more of everything and as our Father continues to keep up with everything he learns more and more of all there continues to be.

You'll need the Spirit to convey the truth to you when someone shares it with you otherwise you won't see and understand the truth they are sharing.

[Randall57]

The Holy Spirit should be our guide as the Spirit reveals truth from our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. So it is the Spirit who should tell us when any man is speaking as a prophet. And without that Spirit we won't learn the truth when it is presented to us.

Like how I've told you multiple times that our Father does know everything and yet he still learns because everything isn't a stagnant quantity. There is always more of everything and as our Father continues to keep up with everything he learns more and more of all there continues to be.

You'll need the Spirit to convey the truth to you when someone shares it with you otherwise you won't see and understand the truth they are sharing.

Did JFS and other prophets have the spirit when they taught differently than you believe? Your argument is circular. Did President Young have the spirit

when he taught that God was always learning? There are two camps of thought on this is LDS teachings, and each will say they have the confirmation of the spirit? At some point there needs to be an arbitration. If we both claim to know this as truth by the witness of the HG, then who can we go to to confirm our witness. This is why there is a living prophet yet it seems these days doctrine is not at the top of their list.

 

Like how I've told you multiple times that our Father does know everything and yet he still learns because everything isn't a stagnant quantity. There is always more of everything and as our Father continues to keep up with everything he learns more and more of all there continues to be.

 

 

And I asked for a CFR...and you simply claimed it is by personal revelation that you know this. And I believe God is all knowing, knows the beginning and the end,  by scripture and personal revelation?

[JLHPROF]

And I believe God is all knowing, knows the beginning and the end,  by scripture and personal revelation?

 

There is no end.

Each creation has a beginning and a (hopefully) Celestial conclusion to its mortality.

Joseph Smith taught that:

 

Well, now, Brother William, when the house of Israel begin to come into the glorious mysteries of the kingdom, and find that Jesus Christ, whose goings forth, as the prophets said, have been from of old, from eternity; and that eternity, agreeably to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system almost two thousand five hundred and fifty five millions of years…

So said William W. Phelps, the Prophet Joseph’s scribe, in a letter to the Prophet’s brother, William Smith, in 1844 Times & Seasons 5 no. 24 (1 Jan. 1844), 758

 

 

If "eternity" can have a beginning, and we can go from eternity to eternity, then God having an eternity of knowledge is still finite.

[Ahab]

Did JFS and other prophets have the spirit when they taught differently than you believe? Your argument is circular. Did President Young have the spirit

when he taught that God was always learning? There are two camps of thought on this is LDS teachings, and each will say they have the confirmation of the spirit? At some point there needs to be an arbitration. If we both claim to know this as truth by the witness of the HG, then who can we go to to confirm our witness. This is why there is a living prophet yet it seems these days doctrine is not at the top of their list.

And I asked for a CFR...and you simply claimed it is by personal revelation that you know this. And I believe God is all knowing, knows the beginning and the end, by scripture and personal revelation?

You say God knows the beginning and the end.

Beginning of what? End of what?

Do you imagine there will be an end to ALL things at some point in the future? That at some point there will never be any more of something? No more children of our Father in heaven, maybe? No more planets to be created and recreated? No more love? No more intelligence? No more listening?

I'll say again that God our Father DOES know everything about everything that exists right now and yet at the same time he is continuing to learn things all the time. And why is that? Because as each moment passes there is more and more of everything and he keeps up with the things that are coming to pass. Time is not stagnant. Everything there is now is only some of what there will be in the future. And there will never be a day when everything stops and we could then say that there is a limit to every thing. Everything will always keep changing from what there is now to more of everything. Forever.

[KevinG]

AutoComplete strikes again?    (Sorry;   Couldn't resist!)

 

Multiverses/more than three dimensions, anyone?

 

Those of us who are Scifi nerds will have a head start on creating wonderful universes.  As for me I know the first thing I will do is make broccoli taste like steak.  After that its anyone's guess.

[Randall57]

You say God knows the beginning and the end.

Beginning of what? End of what?

Do you imagine there will be an end to ALL things at some point in the future? That at some point there will never be any more of something? No more children of our Father in heaven, maybe? No more planets to be created and recreated? No more love? No more intelligence? No more listening?

I'll say again that God our Father DOES know everything about everything that exists right now and yet at the same time he is continuing to learn things all the time. And why is that? Because as each moment passes there is more and more of everything and he keeps up with the things that are coming to pass. Time is not stagnant. Everything there is now is only some of what there will be in the future. And there will never be a day when everything stops and we could then say that there is a limit to every thing. Everything will always keep changing from what there is now to more of everything. Forever.

The beginning and the end is a metaphor for knowing all things-he is the alpha and the omega.

 

I would follow brother McConkie  when he wrote... "“There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths. This is false-utterly, totally, and completely.”

 

It defies progression and eternal law as taught by the church...it defies perfection as progression demands.

 

We will just have to agree to disagree.

[Ahab]

The beginning and the end is a metaphor for knowing all things-he is the alpha and the omega.

That's one interpretation for what it means to know the beginning and the end. Another is to think of a beginning as a beginning to a specific thing, rather than the ultimate beginning of everything. Such as how the words "in the beginning" in Genesis 1:1 refers to the beginning of this Earth's creation rather than the ultimate beginning of everything...which is a beginning that never has been because there is no ultimate beginning of everything.

I would follow brother McConkie when he wrote... "“There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths. This is false-utterly, totally, and completely.”

It defies progression and eternal law as taught by the church...it defies perfection as progression demands.

It is possible to know everything and still learn new things as eternity rolls on.

How many children would God say you have now?

How many will he say you have a billion years from now?

Knowledge changes as time rolls on and to think that God's knowledge doesn't keep up with the updates as time rolls on is to think that he's stuck giving the same answers later that he would give in the current situation.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

For now, maybe. Feel free to let me know if you ever see the truth I have been sharing with you. Edited November 24, 2015 by Ahab

[JLHPROF]

It defies progression and eternal law as taught by the church...

 

The Church isn't perfect in its theology and doctrine.

If it were they'd have accepted Brigham's teachings on God from when he was President and quit changing them. 

 

There is no more reason to believe they are correct today instead of yesterday.

[Ahab]

The Church isn't perfect in its theology and doctrine.

If it were they'd have accepted Brigham's teachings on God from when he was President and quit changing them.

There is no more reason to believe they are correct today instead of yesterday.

The Church is all of the people in it and although all of us don't agree with each other there are still some like me who agree with all of our Lord's prophets.

It's just that we need the Spirit to help us know when a man is speaking as a prophet, and what he means when he says something.

[Randall57]

That's one interpretation for what it means to know the beginning and the end. Another is to think of a beginning as a beginning to a specific thing, rather than the ultimate beginning of everything. Such as how the words "in the beginning" in Genesis 1:1 refers to the beginning of this Earth's creation rather than the ultimate beginning of everything...which is a beginning that never has been because there is no ultimate beginning of everything.

It is possible to know everything and still learn new things as eternity rolls on.

How many children would God say you have now?

How many will he say you have a billion years from now?

Knowledge changes as time rolls on and to think that God's knowledge doesn't keep up with the updates as time rolls on is to think that he's stuck giving the same answers later that he would give in the current situation.

For now, maybe. Feel free to let me know if you ever see the truth I have been sharing with you.

 

 

Your truth is just that your truth. It goes against the teachings of the church. I asked for a CFR and all you have is your opinion and you totally ignored the teaching of how God became a God, and the impacts of it on your opinion. I do not believe God is ignorant of anything, whether past present or future. Your God has to have continuing education, my God does not.

[Randall57]

The Church isn't perfect in its theology and doctrine.

If it were they'd have accepted Brigham's teachings on God from when he was President and quit changing them. 

 

There is no more reason to believe they are correct today instead of yesterday.

I agree...Or what we learn today is truth, but tomorrow a lie? How many members died believing Adam was God, or Blacks were lazy in the great war...I hope someday our leaders will get it right?

[JLHPROF]

How many members died believing Adam was God

 

 

I still believe that.  Brigham was right.

[Ahab]

Your truth is just that your truth. It goes against the teachings of the church. I asked for a CFR and all you have is your opinion and you totally ignored the teaching of how God became a God, and the impacts of it on your opinion. I do not believe God is ignorant of anything, whether past present or future. Your God has to have continuing education, my God does not.

This all boils down to a misunderstanding.

You think I misunderstand our Lord's prophets and I believe you do.

Maybe once God tells you how many children you will have in heaven you'll challenge yourself to see if you can have even more than that number. Or maybe you'll just stop when you have that many.

I already know that my posterity will go through all generations of time and throughout all eternity with no end to the number I'll have. And yet at various points in time throughout eternity I'll know there is only a limited number of those that I have at that point.

And that's just one example of how knowledge is complete and yet ever changing.

[Ahab]

I still believe that. Brigham was right.

Right. All it takes is knowing that the word God applies to more than one person. Just as the word Father does.

[Randall57]

This all boils down to a misunderstanding.

You think I misunderstand our Lord's prophets and I believe you do.

Maybe once God tells you how many children you will have in heaven you'll challenge yourself to see if you can have even more than that number. Or maybe you'll just stop when you have that many.

I already know that my posterity will go through all generations of time and throughout all eternity with no end to the number I'll have. And yet at various points in time throughout eternity I'll know there is only a limited number of those that I have at that point.

And that's just one example of how knowledge is complete and yet ever changing.

CFR...you are just making it up?

[Randall57]

I still believe that.  Brigham was right.

You believe Adam is father of your spirit? Do you believe Adam was HF or Jehovah?

[JLHPROF]

You believe Adam is father of your spirit? Do you believe Adam was HF or Jehovah?

 

1. Michael/Adam is Heavenly Father - of both our bodies and spirits and of Christ.

2. Jehovah is Michael/Adam's father (possibly his Savior depending on how we interpret the KFD), but he presides over many Adams, just as Christ who became Jehovah will preside over all of us who "consider ourselves as Adams and Eves".

3. Eloheim is the Council of the Gods headed by a being also sometimes called Eloheim, but the council presides over all creations as shown in the temple.

 

That is what Brigham taught precisely.  That is what the temple portrays.  That is what I believe.

 

And to save time:

1. Yes, I know this is not what the Church currently believes.

2. Yes, I know Pres. Kimball & Elder McConkie called this heresy.

3. Yes, I know pretty much every modern argument against it and every 19th century teaching for it.

4. No, this doesn't contradict D&C 110 where Christ is identified as Jehovah, an office he received because of his atoning sacrifice.

5. This agrees with the temple, Moses, Abraham, and explains much scripture.

Edited November 25, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Randall57]

1. Michael/Adam is Heavenly Father - of both our bodies and spirits and of Christ.

2. Jehovah is Michael/Adam's father (possibly his Savior depending on how we interpret the KFD), but he presides over many Adams, just as Christ who became Jehovah will preside over all of us who "consider ourselves as Adams and Eves".

3. Eloheim is the Council of the Gods headed by a being also sometimes called Eloheim, but the council presides over all creations as shown in the temple.

 

That is what Brigham taught precisely.  That is what the temple portrays.  That is what I believe.

 

And to save time:

1. Yes, I know this is not what the Church currently believes.

2. Yes, I know Pres. Kimball & Elder McConkie called this heresy.

3. Yes, I know pretty much every modern argument against it and every 19th century teaching for it.

4. No, this doesn't contradict D&C 110 where Christ is identified as Jehovah, an office he received because of his atoning sacrifice.

5. This agrees with the temple, Moses, Abraham, and explains much scripture.

I don't post here much, are you a fundy?

[JLHPROF]

I don't post here much, are you a fundy?

 

Nope, active member that studies ALL the prophets of the Church.

I believe that some of the changes between the 19th Century Church and the Church today were NOT given by revelation and were the works of men and the rule of common consent at work.

But the Church is still God's Church and always will be.  The scriptures tell us it will go astray but be set in order before the return of Christ and that it will never lose the keys of priesthood which would require another restoration (which would be contrary to scripture). 

 

I believe that Joseph restored the gospel and that Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff etc were taught by Joseph.  I believe that God doesn't change and neither do eternal laws, ordinances, and doctrines.

But in the 20th century many things were changed and no recorded revelations have been presented to support the changes.

 

I believe the further away from the restored gospel the Church goes the closer we are to the return of the Savior.  There is nothing in scripture that states that the Church will become more and more perfect and correct leading to the return of Christ.  There is much that teaches we will need to be corrected before Christ can return.  But it is still God's Church and will never again be taken from the earth.   Most Fundamentalists claim special dispensation contrary to God's revelations.

[ERayR]

Your truth is just that your truth. It goes against the teachings of the church. I asked for a CFR and all you have is your opinion and you totally ignored the teaching of how God became a God, and the impacts of it on your opinion. I do not believe God is ignorant of anything, whether past present or future. Your God has to have continuing education, my God does not.

 

I don't always agree with Ahab but I would like you to show me he is against the teachings of the church.  I think the best you can do is show he is against them as you understand them.

Edited November 25, 2015 by ERayR

[ERayR]

CFR...you are just making it up?

 

Stop for a minute and meditate on what he wrote.

[ERayR]

I agree...Or what we learn today is truth, but tomorrow a lie? How many members died believing Adam was God, or Blacks were lazy in the great war...I hope someday our leaders will get it right?

 

Right?  According to who?  You, me, Ahab or . . .?