Mormons "getting Their Own Planet" (Merged)

[stephenpurdy]

The Adam and Eve narrative has them in the garden as immortal and only became mortal through the partaking of the fruit.  Do you consider the temple endowment as scripture?

 

Yes, they were then a spirit in an immortal body. 

 

However, scripture, says that God created the body of Adam and Eve, "from the dust" of the Earth while in the Garden of Eden. 

 

This would be unnecessary if Adam and Eve already had physical bodies.

 

You also have to skate around the idea that IF Adam and Eve had already partaken of mortality, then they would already have the "knowledge of good and evil".  The Adam and Eve of scriptures are inexperienced in terms of mortality, death, knowledge, sexuality, etc.

 

-Stephen

Edited November 11, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[ERayR]

Yes, they were then a spirit in an immortal body. 

 

However, scripture, says that God created the body of Adam and Eve, "from the dust" of the Earth while in the Garden of Eden. 

 

This would be unnecessary if Adam and Eve already had physical bodies.

 

You also have to skate around the idea that IF Adam and Eve had already partaken of mortality, then they would already have the "knowledge of good and evil".  The Adam and Eve of scriptures are inexperienced in terms of mortality, death, knowledge, sexuality, etc.

 

-Stephen

 

You are reading into it things that are not said.  It does not say he created the bodies while they were in the Garden of Eden. That is your own extrapolation.  The veil of forgetfulness was in place before they partook of the fruit.  I think you infer much more than s written.

[JLHPROF]

I don't think that is it. 

 

There is no scripture to support the idea of two mortal probations.  No scripture to support having lost the knowledge of good and evil after having gone through mortalitity once.  No scripture of having to give up an immortal and resurrected body for a mortal one. 

 

No scriptures either from the Bible or LDS scriptures.

 

So, it doesn't stand up very well.  I think that the model I posted here stands up better , but I fully admit that these are speculations.

 

-Stephen

 

There is the temple.

[JLHPROF]

Yes, they were then a spirit in an immortal body. 

 

However, scripture, says that God created the body of Adam and Eve, "from the dust" of the Earth while in the Garden of Eden. 

 

 

So what was the "immortal body"?  According to you they weren't spirits.  They weren't mortal.  They weren't resurrected beings.

 

Exactly what is this new level of body that you believe existed?

[stephenpurdy]

So what was the "immortal body"?  According to you they weren't spirits.  They weren't mortal.  They weren't resurrected beings.

 

Exactly what is this new level of body that you believe existed?

 

They were spirits (a spirit body) which is not the same as a resurrected and glorified body prior to the creation of the Earth.  Then God created a physical body for their spirit bodies to dwell in (created from the dust of the Earth).  Then that physical body became mortal.

 

-Stephen

[ERayR]

They were spirits (a spirit body) which is not the same as a resurrected and glorified body prior to the creation of the Earth.  Then God created a physical body for their spirit bodies to dwell in (created from the dust of the Earth).  Then that physical body became mortal.

 

-Stephen

 

They were placed in the garden with a physical immortal body.  Partaking of the fruit brought mortality.  It did not make their bodies physical.

[JLHPROF]

They were spirits (a spirit body) which is not the same as a resurrected and glorified body prior to the creation of the Earth.  Then God created a physical body for their spirit bodies to dwell in (created from the dust of the Earth).  Then that physical body became mortal.

 

-Stephen

  

They were placed in the garden with a physical immortal body.  Partaking of the fruit brought mortality.  It did not make their bodies physical.

ERayR is correct. Adam and Eve had immortal physical bodies in the garden prior to the fall and they were under commandment to multiply and replenish. They weren't spirits. Then they fell to mortality (death).

So either they were resurrected or there is a new class of body beyond spirit, mortal, and resurrected (eternal).

[stephenpurdy]

Stephen wrote:  They were spirits (a spirit body) which is not the same as a resurrected and glorified body prior to the creation of the Earth.  Then God created a physical body for their spirit bodies to dwell in (created from the dust of the Earth).  Then that physical body became mortal.

 

  
ERayR is correct. Adam and Eve had immortal physical bodies in the garden prior to the fall and they were under commandment to multiply and replenish. They weren't spirits. Then they fell to mortality (death).
So either they were resurrected or there is a new class of body beyond spirit, mortal, and resurrected (eternal).

 

ErayR didn't read my post correctly.

 

Here is the chronology, that I outlined above.

 

1) Prior to the physical creation, they had "spirit bodies".  They were spiritual son and daughter of God.  So prior to the creation of earth they were just spirits. (Just as Jesus appeared to the Brother of Jared with a spirit body).  No flesh and bone yet.

 

Moses 5 For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

 

Abraham 3: 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

 

2) God created, from the Earth, a physical body and then placed the spirit into the physical body.  So, here ... after God created the "living soul" , you are correct, they weren't just spirits in the Garden.  They were spirits who lived in immortality, dwelling in tabernacles of flesh and bone.

 

Moses 7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; ...22 And the rib which I, the Lord God, had taken from man, made I a woman, and brought her unto the man.

 

3) They partook of the fruit and became mortal.  They became flesh and blood.

 

 

 

I don't see why you are ignoring/skipping step 2 in this chronology.  You are pretending that they had flesh and bone before God created Adam from the dust of the Earth.

 

ERayR says that I "infer too much" from what is written.  Yet here you all are , ignoring key parts of the text, and also claiming that Adam and Eve are resurrected beings who have already lived a life of mortality.  The text CERTAINLY does not say that!  Who is "inferring"?

 

 

-Stephen

Edited November 11, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[JLHPROF]

2) God created, from the Earth, a physical body and then placed the spirit into the physical body.  So, here ... after God created the "living soul" , you are correct, they weren't just spirits in the Garden.  They were spirits who lived in immortality, dwelling in tabernacles of flesh and bone.

 

Moses 7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; ...22 And the rib which I, the Lord God, had taken from man, made I a woman, and brought her unto the man.

 

3) They partook of the fruit and became mortal.  They became flesh and blood.

 

I don't see why you are ignoring/skipping step 2 in this chronology.  You are pretending that they had flesh and bone before God created Adam from the dust of the Earth.

 

Nobody is skipping step 2.  We are asking you to explain how a spirit in a body made out of the dust of the earth (mortal element) was immortal?

You say "They were spirits who lived in immortality, dwelling in tabernacles of flesh and bone".

What kind of physical body is immortal?  I know of only one kind:  resurrected.

[Randall57]

We've discussed in the past the idea that Mormons believe that we will get our "own planet".  This idea is still being portrayed to packed houses of theater goers in The Book of Mormon broadway musical, and there has been some debate on whether or not this is a valid representation of LDS belief.

 

I recently came across this quote which I had never seen before.  It's a teaching from President Lorenzo Snow, as published in this manual.

President Snow was visiting a Kindergarten with BY Academy President Brimhall when this happened:

 

 

So while I can understand that many LDS don't like the idea or are hesitant to admit it is a "church teaching", I don't think we can argue that anyone who says it is is being disingenuous.

 

 

Gospel fundamentals (2002)...a LDS teaching manual reads:

 

 

To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation* or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted.

 

 

This is a teaching that is not even debatable. Also Gospel Principles reads that man can have- "  everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge..."

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/title-page?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

[stephenpurdy]

What kind of physical body is immortal?  I know of only one kind:  resurrected.

 

The scriptures speak of another kind, the kind that Adam and Eve had before the Fall, which God created from the Earth.  It said that if they refrained from eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, they would not die.  Hence God created the bodies of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and those bodies were immortal.  I showed you the scriptures which explained God creating Adam from the dust of the Earth. 

 

Now why don't you show me the scriptures which say that Adam and Eve had physical bodies prior to the creation of the Earth?  Or show me the scripture which says that Adam and Eve already lived in mortality and were already resurrected beings?

 

-Stephen

 

P.S.  You can believe it if you want, but don't pretend that it is anything more than speculation / theory.  The canon of scriptures do not support it.

Edited November 11, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[stephenpurdy]

This is a teaching that is not even debatable. Also Gospel Principles reads that man can have- "  everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge..."

 

 

 

But that teaching does not equate to "each couple having their own planet". 

 

-stephen

[VideoGameJunkie]

Stephen Purdy what do you think kingdoms refers to in D&C 132 when it says they will inherit kingdoms thrones and principalities.

[stephenpurdy]

Stephen Purdy what do you think kingdoms refers to in D&C 132 when it says they will inherit kingdoms thrones and principalities.

 

It could mean many things in realms both spiritual and physical, but I don't think people should jump to conclusions and say it specifically means that a husband and wife have their own planet.

 

-stephen

[Randall57]

But that teaching does not equate to "each couple having their own planet". 

 

-stephen

 

The Celestial Kingdom

This is the place where our Father in Heaven and Jesus live. It is a place where people will be happy, and it will be more beautiful than we can imagine. The people who will live in this kingdom will love our Father in Heaven and Jesus and will choose to obey Them. They must have repented of all their sins and must have accepted Jesus as their Savior. They must have been baptized and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. They must have a testimony from the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Savior.

To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation* or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted.

 

It reads each couple will "make" their own worlds, Joseph called this the  "continuation of seeds."

Edited November 11, 2015 by Randall57

[JLHPROF]

P.S.  You can believe it if you want, but don't pretend that it is anything more than speculation / theory.  The canon of scriptures do not support it.

 

True.

But the teachings of the prophet Brigham Young and the temple (even without the lecture at the veil) point directly to it.

The canon of scripture include the symbolic version of Adam and Eve - unless you literally believe Eve was made out of Adam's rib.

Edited November 11, 2015 by JLHPROF

[stephenpurdy]

 

 

It reads each couple will "make" their own worlds, Joseph called this the  "continuation of seeds."

 

 

So, you are absolutely positive that a single husband and wife will have their own single planet?

 

What makes you so sure?

 

What if each couple have a range of different kinds of spiritual children?   Some (perhaps more noble) of those children go to a certain kind of world and others go to another kind of world, depending on the characteristics/qualities of each spirit.

 

Is every world exactly the same? 

 

Haven't some LDS leaders speculated that Christ went to this world in the Universe, because it was the only world wicked enough to crucify him?

 

We simply don't know enough about the organization of it all to be as specific as you are trying to be. 

 

-Stephen

Edited November 11, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[JLHPROF]

They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done.

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-36-eternal-life?lang=eng

 

So if this is in a Church manual on the Church website, presumably approved by the Correlation committee, does THAT make it official church doctrine?

[stephenpurdy]

True.

But the teachings of the prophet Brigham Young and the temple (even without the lecture at the veil) point directly to it.

 

 

Hmmm.  That is one interpretation, and Brigham Young appears to have said some contradictory things.  I also believe that the subsequent LDS prophets were correct to diminish Brigham's confusing theories.  I wish I could talk to Brigham about it, because he may be right, but it is tough to determine exactly what he meant.

 

The canon of scripture include the symbolic version of Adam and Eve - unless you literally believe Eve was made out of Adam's rib.

 

I believe that the text supports that Adam and Eve's physicality was created from the Earth.  Whether it was from some kind of evolution or whatever, ... I can be open to that. 

 

There is even a theory given by some LDS that Heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father came to the Earth, lived in the Garden of Eden and ate from the food there (ie from the Earth) and they had sexual relations resulting in the food of the earth making up the material in order to form the Man Adam in Heavenly Mother's womb.  Thus Adam would be logically an immortal son of immortal parents. The problem with that theory is that Jesus Christ would not have been the "only begotten Son of God according to the flesh". 

 

Anyways, I stand by the fact that there is nothing in the text of scripture, or the temple that indicates that Adam and Eve were already physical beings before coming to Earth.

 

-Stephen

[JLHPROF]

I wish I could talk to Brigham about it, because he may be right, but it is tough to determine exactly what he meant.

 

It's really not - http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64192-mormons-getting-their-own-planet/page-11#entry1209559117

[stephenpurdy]

It's really not - http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64192-mormons-getting-their-own-planet/page-11#entry1209559117

 

J wrote:   Christ and those who are exalted to Godhood will continue the same work as all Gods before them - creating earths and creating more Gods.

 

I can agree with this.

 

J wrote: And just as OT Jehovah (who I don't believe was Christ) .....

 

I'm jumping ship already, because LDS leaders have pretty consistently taught that Christ is the OT Jehovah.

 

J wrote: And just as OT Jehovah... oversaw Adam/Michael in the creation of this world at the instruction of the Eloheim council so it will be in future creations.  (Very clear in the temple).

 

Sure, under the direction of Elohim, Jehovah and Michael created this world.

 

J wrote: And so our Jehovah (Christ - D&C 110:3) who will inherit/adopt us and be our Father instead of our Elder Brother (see Adam-Ondi-Ahman teachings/Alma 11:38-39 for just a few examples) will oversee all exalted Gods from his generation (us hopefully) ...

 

I am with you on this part.  I just don't see where we can jump to the conclusion of saying that we will enter in mortality again.

 

J wrote: It's eternal progression in all its beauty.  Even if it isn't currently taught by the Church.  (King Follett Discourse)

 

The king follett discourse is pretty much accepted in the LDS church, because all it says is that Christ is following in the footsteps of God the Father.  God lived on an Earth like Jesus Christ did.  We just don't know anything else about it, so we cannot discuss it at length.

 

By the way, my theory is not too different from yours,  here it is again:

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In my mind, the most consistent interpretation is this highly speculative viewpoint:

 

Jesus Christ would become the "God the Father" of a new creation (possibly a new universe) and he would be at the head of the "heavenly host" , who are "gods". Thus making him the "God of gods" and "Lord of lords" or "the Most High God" of the new universe. Or as Joseph taught, the "Head of the gods". (We would still have the same relationship with God the Father of our universe.)

 

Again, our Christ would be "the Father" of the new universe (Note that the Book of Mormon calls Christ "the Father" when we are "born again" through Jesus, and in this sense, Jesus would always be considered "the Father" of our becoming "partakers of the divine nature"). We would be "one" with Him in this endeavor. All of these exalted would share involvement in the spiritual creation - intelligences into spiritual bodies, who are the spiritual children of "Elohim" (plural).

Among the spiritual children of Elohim would be a perfectly and naturally divine spirit, who would be the new "Christ" of the new creation, and would then enact the physical creation, place spirits into bodies, and say "man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil" etc. etc. This seems consistent with LDS scripture to me, because God the Father is the Father of "worlds without number".

Granted, this includes speculation on my part, and there are complications and implications. For example, it could potentially mean that God the Father of this Universe is not actually the father of every spirit, at least not directly; but instead, spirits may be created from other couples. Not that there would be much of a difference (at least not to me), but that would be one of the implications to this theory which people may have difficulty with.  The "Father" is the Father in the ultimate spiritual sense, even if other exalted gods are doing much of the procreating. And this "Father" who was our Christ , is the one being worshiped, and rightly so.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

The main difference between the theory you gave and the theory I gave is that this one does not include a second mortal probation (ie this idea of previously resurrected and exalted saints returning to earth again as Adam/Eve in order to taste of knowledge of good and evil again... then live in mortality, die again, etc.)  The scriptures seem to indicate that resurrection to a glorified body is a permanent condition.

 

“Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous … [and they shall] be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father and the Holy Spirit … to be judged according to their works. … I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.” (Alma 11:40–45; italics added.)

 

-stephen

Edited November 11, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[JLHPROF]

J wrote: And just as OT Jehovah (who I don't believe was Christ) .....

 

I'm jumping ship already, because LDS leaders have pretty consistently taught that Christ is the OT Jehovah.

 

 

Not really.  This doctrine didn't become Church doctrine until the 20th Century.  In the 1800's it wasn't taught, and was only begun to be speculated on near the very end.  Joseph Smith never taught it (D&C 110 identifies Christ as Jehovah, but the Lord in the OT is never identified as Christ).

Brigham Young never taught it.  I don't believe John Taylor ever taught it.  Yaweh possibly being Christ was first mentioned by Franklin Richards in the 1870s, and first published by Talmage in Jesus the Christ (1915).

[stephenpurdy]

Not really.  This doctrine didn't become Church doctrine until the 20th Century.  In the 1800's it wasn't taught, and was only begun to be speculated on near the very end.  Joseph Smith never taught it (D&C 110 identifies Christ as Jehovah, but the Lord in the OT is never identified as Christ).

Brigham Young never taught it.  I don't believe John Taylor ever taught it.  Yaweh possibly being Christ was first mentioned by Franklin Richards in the 1870s, and first published by Talmage in Jesus the Christ (1915).

 

 

So, where did any of these prophets, prior to 1915, teach what YOU are claiming?

 

(Not that you don't have enough obstacles in your theory to overcome already, but you just cited ... a negative, which doesn't help you much.)

 

Jesus Christ in the New Testament claimed to be the Old Testament Jehovah.  That is good enough for me.  It predates 1915 by quite a bit.

 

-Stephen

Edited November 11, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[Calm]

NM

Edited November 11, 2015 by Calm

[Calm]

Eternal parenting and gardening isn't for everyone.  We will need harp players too.

And heavenly choirs...though for someone like me who can't keep pitch or go high or low, that would be hard work.

 

I truly believe we will make music in heaven, though maybe voices of infinite variety will be our instruments.  How dreary if there is none.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Calm