Mormons "getting Their Own Planet" (Merged)

[The Nehor]

This obviously implies that He knows more now than he did in the past, which leaves open the possibility that in the past He acted on imperfect knowledge and therefore did something that was not entirely perfect or good.

 

It's hard to be all-good without being all-knowing.

 

What do you think?

 

I agree with you and never understand how LDS can believe God is still learning when in the Bible and Book of Mormon and in all other scriptures God and his prophets sometimes can't seem to shut up about how all-knowing God is.

[ERayR]

I believe HF is always learning.

 

They are not many but this is one place I will disagree with you.  I think at one time he was learning but there came a time when he attained all knowledge and became a God.  I do think there is no end to his increase and he is still increasing.

 

It does cause some wonder when one ponders the phrase - There is no end to his power and knowledge.

[Ahab]

I believe HF is always learning.

I do too but only because there continues to be more of everything. So while right now he already knows everything there is to know about everything as more things come into existence (or an alternate state of existence) he will know that then too and all the while know everything about everything.

Like right now I don't have a first born son in heaven like he has now but if and when I ever do he will know that just as well as I do then.

Always more to learn because there is and always will be more stuff to learn with no end to things coming to pass.

[ERayR]

Right now this sounds good to me.

[Ahab]

This obviously implies that He knows more now than he did in the past, which leaves open the possibility that in the past He acted on imperfect knowledge and therefore did something that was not entirely perfect or good.

It's hard to be all-good without being all-knowing.

What do you think?

We believe he was once like we are now, or like Jesus was while he was mortal like us, so yes that would mean that back then he did not know as much as he knows now. Acting on a lack of all knowledge of everything doesn't necessarily imply that he did something that wasn't good, though, although that is a possibility. When our Savior became mortal he lost (or couldn't remember) some of the glory/intelligence (knowledge and wisdom) he once had with our Father and he never did anything that wasn't good, so our Father could have been more like him than us. But even if he was more like us and needed a Savior as we do he still turned out pretty darn good with many of his children, including our Savior, wanting to become like him.

[Randall57]

I do too but only because there continues to be more of everything. So while right now he already knows everything there is to know about everything as more things come into existence (or an alternate state of existence) he will know that then too and all the while know everything about everything.

Like right now I don't have a first born son in heaven like he has now but if and when I ever do he will know that just as well as I do then.

Always more to learn because there is and always will be more stuff to learn with no end to things coming to pass.

President Smith put it this way;

 

FALSE NOTIONS ABOUT GOD'S PROGRESSION. It seems very strange to me that members of the Church will hold to the doctrine, "God increases in knowledge as time goes on." Or that they can believe (as a recently published article says): "If absolute perfection were attainable, there would eventually come a time when those who had chosen the better way would reach the ultimate; and if the ultimate could be gained, progression would cease. This cannot be, for as before specified nothing in nature remains at a standstill. When progression abdicates the throne, retrogression is the degrading successor." But, how does anyone know? Where has the Lord ever revealed to us that he is lacking in knowledge? That he is still learning new truth; discovering new laws that are unknown to him? I think this kind of doctrine is very dangerous. I don't know where the Lord has ever declared such a thing. It is not contained in any revelation that I have read. Man's opinion unaided by the revelations of the Lord, does not make it so.

Joseph Fielding Smith (1905-07-04). Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith: Volumes 1-3 (Kindle Locations 191-198). Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition.

 

 

GOD HAS ALL POWER AND WISDOM. My grandfather, Hyrum Smith, at the conference of the Church, April, 1844, in the course of his remarks said: "I want to put down all false influences. If I thought I should be saved and any in the congregation be lost, I should not be happy. For this purpose Jesus effected a resurrection. Our Savior is competent to save all from death and hell [i.e. by repentance], I can prove it out of the revelations. I would not serve a God that had not all wisdom and all power." Do we believe that God has all "wisdom"? If so, in that, he is absolute. If there is something he does not know, then he is not absolute in "wisdom," and to think such a thing is absurd. Does he have all "power"? If so then there is nothing in which he lacks. If he is lacking in "wisdom" and in "power" then he is not supreme and there must be something greater than he is, and this is absurd.

Joseph Fielding Smith (1905-07-04). Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith: Volumes 1-3 (Kindle Location 155-161). Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition.

It seems logical to me that if HF does not know everything, then how can he know the beginning from the end. if he does not know the beginning from the end, then how can we know prophecy is prophecy, and not just a guess, that could be influenced by future unknown events?

Edited November 23, 2015 by Randall57

[Ahab]

President Smith put it this way;

FALSE NOTIONS ABOUT GOD'S PROGRESSION. It seems very strange to me that members of the Church will hold to the doctrine, "God increases in knowledge as time goes on." Or that they can believe (as a recently published article says): "If absolute perfection were attainable, there would eventually come a time when those who had chosen the better way would reach the ultimate; and if the ultimate could be gained, progression would cease. This cannot be, for as before specified nothing in nature remains at a standstill. When progression abdicates the throne, retrogression is the degrading successor." But, how does anyone know? Where has the Lord ever revealed to us that he is lacking in knowledge? That he is still learning new truth; discovering new laws that are unknown to him? I think this kind of doctrine is very dangerous. I don't know where the Lord has ever declared such a thing. It is not contained in any revelation that I have read. Man's opinion unaided by the revelations of the Lord, does not make it so.

Joseph Fielding Smith (1905-07-04). Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith: Volumes 1-3 (Kindle Locations 191-198). Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition.

GOD HAS ALL POWER AND WISDOM. My grandfather, Hyrum Smith, at the conference of the Church, April, 1844, in the course of his remarks said: "I want to put down all false influences. If I thought I should be saved and any in the congregation be lost, I should not be happy. For this purpose Jesus effected a resurrection. Our Savior is competent to save all from death and hell [i.e. by repentance], I can prove it out of the revelations. I would not serve a God that had not all wisdom and all power." Do we believe that God has all "wisdom"? If so, in that, he is absolute. If there is something he does not know, then he is not absolute in "wisdom," and to think such a thing is absurd. Does he have all "power"? If so then there is nothing in which he lacks. If he is lacking in "wisdom" and in "power" then he is not supreme and there must be something greater than he is, and this is absurd.

Joseph Fielding Smith (1905-07-04). Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith: Volumes 1-3 (Kindle Location 155-161). Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition.

It seems logical to me that if HF does not know everything, then how can he know the beginning from the end. if he does not know the beginning from the end, then how can we know prophecy is prophecy, and not just a guess, that could be influenced by future unknown events?

My point was that everything changes, so while he does know everything there is to know about everything now, later when everything includes more than everything does now, what he knows about everything will have changed and he will know that as well.

You do realize there will be more of everything later than there is of everything now, don't you? Like how right now I don't have any spiritual offspring as our Father does now so the number of those offspring is 0 right now, but later I expect to have as many as our Father does now, which is a heck of a lot more than 0. So what our Father knows on that issue will change. He now knows I have 0 and when I have 1 he will know that as well because he will have learned that I then have 1 instead of 0. And when I have more than 1 he will learn/acquire that knowledge as well.

But for now, considering everything our Father knows about everything including how many spiritual offspring I have, along with my wife, what he knows is that I do not have any.

Everything is all there is right now but later there will be more of everything.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Ahab

[Randall57]

My point was that everything changes, so while he does know everything there is to know about everything now, later when everything includes more than everything does now, what he knows about everything will have changed and he will know that as well.

You do realize there will be more of everything later than there is of everything now, don't you? Like how right now I don't have any spiritual offspring as our Father does now so the number of those offspring is 0 right now, but later I expect to have as many as our Father does now, which is a heck of a lot more than 0. So what our Father knows on that issue will change. He now knows I have 0 and when I have 1 he will know that as well because he will have learned that I then have 1 instead of 0. And when I have more than 1 he will learn/acquire that knowledge as well.

But for now, considering everything our Father knows about everything including how many spiritual offspring I have, along with my wife, what he knows is that I do not have any.

Everything is all there is right now but later there will be more of everything.

 

By that logic, how did HF know Abraham would be the father of many nations, and many such prophecies for the future?

 

What you seem to be saying is that God does not know the beginning and the end, which President wrote is a dangerous way of thinking.

 

I believe God knows all things past, present, and future, your view seems to limit his knowing the future.

 

What would you quote as a source for your opinion, I would like to read it?

 

Thank you in advance.

[Ahab]

God plans for certain things to happen, like appointing Abraham to be a father of many nations, and sending Jesus to Earth, and appointing many men to be Prophets before they were born on the Earth, etc. When he shares some of his plans in advance we call those prophecies.

There is no end to all that our Father will do, or all that I will do either.

Just some of the things I have learned through personal revelation. You are free to reject it.

[Randall57]

God plans for certain things to happen, like appointing Abraham to be a father of many nations, and sending Jesus to Earth, and appointing many men to be Prophets before they were born on the Earth, etc. When he shares some of his plans in advance we call those prophecies.

There is no end to all that our Father will do, or all that I will do either.

Just some of the things I have learned through personal revelation. You are free to reject it.

I am free to reject it, but that is not the point here. We are simply having a discussion. I fail to understand how a God that does not know the beginning and the end, can know the future.

 

God said Christ would be persecuted, and told Joseph that he also would. If he does not know who is going to be born, until they are born, that would seem to make him less than God. I believe again that is what JFS was saying.

 

Is it wise for us to disregard what our prophets teach us, and seek personal revelation contrary to their council?

 

Do you believe HF and Jehovah know the beginning and the end?

Edited November 24, 2015 by Randall57

[JLHPROF]

President Smith put it this way;

 

FALSE NOTIONS ABOUT GOD'S PROGRESSION. It seems very strange to me that members of the Church will hold to the doctrine, "God increases in knowledge as time goes on." Or that they can believe (as a recently published article says): "If absolute perfection were attainable, there would eventually come a time when those who had chosen the better way would reach the ultimate; and if the ultimate could be gained, progression would cease. This cannot be, for as before specified nothing in nature remains at a standstill. When progression abdicates the throne, retrogression is the degrading successor." But, how does anyone know? Where has the Lord ever revealed to us that he is lacking in knowledge? That he is still learning new truth; discovering new laws that are unknown to him? I think this kind of doctrine is very dangerous. I don't know where the Lord has ever declared such a thing. It is not contained in any revelation that I have read. Man's opinion unaided by the revelations of the Lord, does not make it so.

Joseph Fielding Smith (1905-07-04). Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith: Volumes 1-3 (Kindle Locations 191-198). Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition.

 

 

GOD HAS ALL POWER AND WISDOM. My grandfather, Hyrum Smith, at the conference of the Church, April, 1844, in the course of his remarks said: "I want to put down all false influences. If I thought I should be saved and any in the congregation be lost, I should not be happy. For this purpose Jesus effected a resurrection. Our Savior is competent to save all from death and hell [i.e. by repentance], I can prove it out of the revelations. I would not serve a God that had not all wisdom and all power." Do we believe that God has all "wisdom"? If so, in that, he is absolute. If there is something he does not know, then he is not absolute in "wisdom," and to think such a thing is absurd. Does he have all "power"? If so then there is nothing in which he lacks. If he is lacking in "wisdom" and in "power" then he is not supreme and there must be something greater than he is, and this is absurd.

Joseph Fielding Smith (1905-07-04). Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith: Volumes 1-3 (Kindle Location 155-161). Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition.

It seems logical to me that if HF does not know everything, then how can he know the beginning from the end. if he does not know the beginning from the end, then how can we know prophecy is prophecy, and not just a guess, that could be influenced by future unknown events?

 

 

I can play this game.

 

"God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end. (Brigham Young - Journal of

Discourses, 6:120)"

 

""Some men seem as if they could learn so much and no more. They appear to be bounded in their capacity for acquiring knowledge, as Brother Orson Pratt, has in theory, bounded the capacity of God. According to his theory, God can progress no further in knowledge and power; but the God that I serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children: they will increase to all eternity, if they are faithful." (Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, 11:286-287)

 

"Some may say to me, “Why, Brother Brigham, you seem to know it all.” I say, Oh no, I know but very little, but I have an eternity of knowledge before me, and I never expect to see the time when I shall cease to learn, never, no never, but I expect to keep on learning for ever and ever, going on from exaltation to exaltation, glory to glory, power to power, ever pressing forward to greater and higher attainments, as the Gods do. That is an idea that drowns the whole Christian world in a moment…. “What,” say they, “God progress?” Now, do not lariet the God that I serve and say that he cannot learn any more; I do not believe in such a character. “Why,” say they, “does not the Lord know it all?” Well, if he does, he must know an immense amount." (Deseret News, June 18, 1873, 309)

 

"God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." (Wilford Woodruff Journal of Discourses 6:120)

 

"...advancing as our Father in heaven advances, for there is progress for our father and for our Lord Jesus. There is no such thing as standing still in the eternal work of our God. It is endless progress, progressing from one degree of knowledge to another degree."  (George Q. Cannon First Presidency Millennial Star 61:117)

 

D&C 130:10-11 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

 

"What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself."  - Joseph Smith KFD

 

(And what is a higher exaltation - clearly a higher glory, and the glory of God is intelligence, therefore, an increase in intelligence).

 

June 13, 1852 - Brigham Young preaches: "When we use the term perfection, it applies to man in his present condition, as well as the heavenly beings. We are now, or may be, as perfect in OUR SPHERE as God and angels are in theirs, but the greatest intelligence in existence can continually ascend to greater heights of perfection."

[JLHPROF]

I fail to understand how a God that does not know the beginning and the end, can know the future.

 

Because you aren't recognizing the concept of multiple eternities, multiple creations, multiple Godheads all doing what our Father in Heaven is doing under the purview of the Eloheim (council of Gods), all creating worlds without number, all progressing from their Celestial thrones towards a higher order of Kingdoms.

 

1. If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end?

Methinks the Spirit whispers,

"No man has found 'pure space,'

Nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;

There is no end to might;

There is no end to wisdom;

There is no end to light.

There is no end to union;

There is no end to youth;

There is no end to priesthood;

There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

[Randall57]

 

Because you aren't recognizing the concept of multiple eternities, multiple creations, multiple Godheads all doing what our Father in Heaven is doing under the purview of the Eloheim (council of Gods), all creating worlds without number, all progressing from their Celestial thrones towards a higher order of Kingdoms.

 

1. If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end?

Methinks the Spirit whispers,

"No man has found 'pure space,'

Nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;

There is no end to might;

There is no end to wisdom;

There is no end to light.

There is no end to union;

There is no end to youth;

There is no end to priesthood;

There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

 

How do you know there is no end of "all the above," without knowing the future? It begs and demands a beginning and a end of knowledge, outer wise it is a guess.

[Ahab]

I am free to reject it, but that is not the point here. We are simply having a discussion. I fail to understand how a God that does not know the beginning and the end, can know the future.

God said Christ would be persecuted, and told Joseph that he also would. If he does not know who is going to be born, until they are born, that would seem to make him less than God. I believe again that is what JFS was saying.

Is it wise for us to disregard what our prophets teach us, and seek personal revelation contrary to their council?

Do you believe HF and Jehovah know the beginning and the end?

I suggest you give some more thought to what eternal progression is all about. There is no end to eternity.

But as I mentioned our Father can conceive a plan and carry it to completion while including others aa a part of his plan.

But there will never be an ultimate end to anything, just as there is no ultimate beginning.

Context is very important.

[Kenngo1969]

This perfection, and having my own planet, thing, sounds good, and all, and perhaps I will get there after aeons and aeons of time, though I will always be subordinate to my Heavenly Father and to my Savior, Jesus Christ, but ... well ... Can I work on getting 100% home teaching first?

 

[Randall57]

I can play this game.

 

"God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end. (Brigham Young - Journal of

Discourses, 6:120)"

 

""Some men seem as if they could learn so much and no more. They appear to be bounded in their capacity for acquiring knowledge, as Brother Orson Pratt, has in theory, bounded the capacity of God. According to his theory, God can progress no further in knowledge and power; but the God that I serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children: they will increase to all eternity, if they are faithful." (Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, 11:286-287)

 

"Some may say to me, “Why, Brother Brigham, you seem to know it all.” I say, Oh no, I know but very little, but I have an eternity of knowledge before me, and I never expect to see the time when I shall cease to learn, never, no never, but I expect to keep on learning for ever and ever, going on from exaltation to exaltation, glory to glory, power to power, ever pressing forward to greater and higher attainments, as the Gods do. That is an idea that drowns the whole Christian world in a moment…. “What,” say they, “God progress?” Now, do not lariet the God that I serve and say that he cannot learn any more; I do not believe in such a character. “Why,” say they, “does not the Lord know it all?” Well, if he does, he must know an immense amount." (Deseret News, June 18, 1873, 309)

 

"God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." (Wilford Woodruff Journal of Discourses 6:120)

 

"...advancing as our Father in heaven advances, for there is progress for our father and for our Lord Jesus. There is no such thing as standing still in the eternal work of our God. It is endless progress, progressing from one degree of knowledge to another degree."  (George Q. Cannon First Presidency Millennial Star 61:117)

 

D&C 130:10-11 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

 

"What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself."  - Joseph Smith KFD

 

(And what is a higher exaltation - clearly a higher glory, and the glory of God is intelligence, therefore, an increase in intelligence).

 

June 13, 1852 - Brigham Young preaches: "When we use the term perfection, it applies to man in his present condition, as well as the heavenly beings. We are now, or may be, as perfect in OUR SPHERE as God and angels are in theirs, but the greatest intelligence in existence can continually ascend to greater heights of perfection."

Yes, and President Smith in on record that BY and others were wrong on this. I guess we are stuck with picking a prophet that we are comfortable with, I suppose I chose JFS on this issue, that God is all knowing. This may be a good subject for a essay " How knowing and limited is our Heavenly Father?"

[Randall57]

I suggest you give some more thought to what eternal progression is all about. There is no end to eternity.

But as I mentioned our Father can conceive a plan and carry it to completion while including others aa a part of his plan.

But there will never be an ultimate end to anything, just as there is no ultimate beginning.

Context is very important.

Do you know what we teach on how HF became a God? The Brethren have taught this in a teaching manual.

[Kenngo1969]

How do you know there is no end of "all the above," without knowing the future? It begs and demands a beginning and a end of knowledge, outer wise [sic] it is a guess.

AutoComplete strikes again?    (Sorry;   Couldn't resist!)

 

Multiverses/more than three dimensions, anyone?

[Ahab]

Do you know what we teach on how HF became a God? The Brethren have taught this in a teaching manual.

By following the example and counsel of his Father in heaven.

And btw, the word God has multiple meanings and we are already the same kind of being called God.

[JLHPROF]

Yes, and President Smith in on record that BY and others were wrong on this. I guess we are stuck with picking a prophet that we are comfortable with, I suppose I chose JFS on this issue, that God is all knowing. This may be a good subject for a essay " How knowing and limited is our Heavenly Father?"

 

I'll go with the prophets (plural) who were taught directly by Joseph Smith, you know, that guy that actually met God and Christ face to face on several occasions and received the vast majority of the founding revelations of this dispensation.

 

Better choice than the reasoning of a later prophet who claimed no revelation on the subject.

 

(Also, when Orson Pratt taught the same teachings as JFS it wasn't just Brigham Young who told him he was wrong.  Most of the quorum at the time had to spend time with him putting down the false doctrine that God couldn't learn anything new.  Unfortunately Pratt's theory became more popular in the 20th century).

 

Oh, and it just makes much more sense to me.  The idea of JFS/BRM and Orson makes no sense at all.

Edited November 24, 2015 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

What, in your opinion, is HF still learning? 

 

Those things of a higher order than the Celestial life he currently inhabits.

 

We came to earth and progress from mortality to immortality.  The entire creation progresses from Telestial, to Terrestrial, to Celestial.  The D&C speaks of kingdoms higher than Celestial.

 

Joseph Smith speaks of God taking a higher exaltation and Christ taking his place, presumably creating worlds for his spirit children.

I don't see why we seek to place finite limits on levels of existence.

Edited November 24, 2015 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

I agree with you and never understand how LDS can believe God is still learning when in the Bible and Book of Mormon and in all other scriptures God and his prophets sometimes can't seem to shut up about how all-knowing God is.

 

When it comes to everything within his creations he is absolutely all knowing.

When it comes to things of a higher order that's a different matter.

 

See, the issue isn't "does God know everything?"

The issue is "is there an end to things to be known?"

[The Nehor]

When it comes to everything within his creations he is absolutely all knowing.

When it comes to things of a higher order that's a different matter.

 

See, the issue isn't "does God know everything?"

The issue is "is there an end to things to be known?"

Yes and yes.

[JLHPROF]

Yes and yes.

(as long as we're engaging in deep reasoning)

Edited November 24, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Ahab]

When it comes to everything within his creations he is absolutely all knowing.

When it comes to things of a higher order that's a different matter.

See, the issue isn't "does God know everything?"

The issue is "is there an end to things to be known?"

Like the names of all of my spirit children when I have as many as our Father in heaven has now, for example. And not just their names but everything else about them like each one of their personality types, and how much each of them knows at various stages of their progression with some of them knowing more than some others of them, and what each of them looks like including the color of their hair and eyes and skin and toenails when the girls have painted them on Tuesday in the year 863,585,419 of our Lord.

And not just all of my spirit children but everybody else's who made it with me to the Celestial kingdom on the same day that I did, then, speaking of things that will happen as if they have already happened.

When that day comes I'm sure our Father will know everything about everything there is in existence on that day and all that I have will also be his then but for now all he knows is in agreement with the fact that none of that has happened, yet, if it ever even will.