Are We Really So Lucky To Have The Gospel Right Now In Our Lives?

[VideoGameJunkie]

You look at exaltation and the plan of salvation, and you look at who receives it. You have all children who die before age 8, which were a very high rate of infant mortality throughout time, and they automatically get saved in the celestial kingdom and are exalted. Then you have the mentally handicapped who aren't held accountable either and they receive exaltation and get saved in the celestial kingdom. Then you have the non members who lived their  life how they did, died, and had all the temple work done for them and they receive the same blessings. Those groups make up billions upon billions of people who will be saved in the celestial kingdom and exalated, and then you have us..............receiving the gospel here on earth, held to a higher standard where if we mess up and sin, the consequences are greater, all while the end result we're shooting for is the same as the other groups. So I have to ask, when you sin, don't you sometimes feel like it'd been better if you died before age 8 or been mentally handicapped, or never knew the gospel, but had the work done for you? Should we be jealous of those other groups of billions of people?

[Tiki]

Don't sin.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Everyone alive who is a member sins.

[The Nehor]

Everyone alive who is a member sins.

 

Then to quote President Uchtdorf: "Stop it!"

[Tiki]

Everyone alive who is a member sins.

Well, we are very fortunate to have now the gospel in our lives. Study your patriarchal blessing and you'll learn the Lord is very mindful of you. It will show your blessings and spiritual gifts He gave you, as well as the goals you need to accomplish to obtain more of His blessings.

One may think it better to die as an infant to avoid problems/temptations in this life, but consider the strength, knowledge and faith you'll obtain by always striving to overcome sin and weakness with the Lord's help. And you'll so much more have the advantage in the life to come, to paraphrase the scriptures.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Will we really have the advantage in the life to come?

[strappinglad]

I have had the same concerns VGJ . It does seem unfair, then again, life in general is unfair. One could be born with some horrible physical defect and live a long life of pain and ridicule. One could have been born in extreme wealth and be isolated from all stress. If life is a test then why do some get to write his/her name on the paper and hand it in and get an "A" ? Others wear out 90 pencils writing and correcting and erasing and breaking them and still are lucky to get a C- . This is just one of the reasons I believe that this life experience is something more than a test. It is also one of the reasons that I have no problem with the possibility of "mulligans".

[CV75]

So I have to ask, when you sin, don't you sometimes feel like it'd been better if you died before age 8 or been mentally handicapped, or never knew the gospel, but had the work done for you? Should we be jealous of those other groups of billions of people?

No, the reward is the same no matter when or how we get there. “Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God; For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men... [and as other scriptures point out, both the accountable and the non-accountable] (D&C 18:10-11)” So we each have His equal and undivided attention. If the reward is the same, so is anything that opposes it (the non-accountable have their particular kind of suffering also, but they may not envy us because of their more advanced spiritual understanding).

 

“Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. (D&C 130:18-19)”. “This life” is any period prior to the resurrection, and both the accountable and the non-accountable go through it, and each child of God must attain the principles of knowledge and intelligence to be exalted, though they may take different paths at different times to do so.

 

The grass is never greener!

[omni]

You've hit on what I believe to be one of the biggest flaws in Mormon theology.  In addition, we exert massive amounts of effort and resources trying to bring people into the church, yet I would estimate at best only 1/3 are able to ensure to the end.  Through our missionary efforts we are essentially "damning" twice as many soles as we are "saving".  Considering this life is but a blink of the eye in our eternal existence, wouldn't we all have been better off dying in infancy or the very least never having heard of the Church?

[Calm]

"  Through our missionary efforts we are essentially "damning" twice as many soles as we are "saving". "

That is assuming that simple exposure or even an initial connection using the Gift of the Holy Ghost constitutes a full chance at conversion. If it does not, there is no reason to assume anyone is damned because at this point they rejected the fulness of the gospel.

[Calm]

If someone seeing the options decides it is better to put off seeking God now in order to avoid pain or hardship or making mistakes while being accountable for them given that their reward will be as great later as it would be now no matter what they do now, they are most likely right...for themselves. They have learned for themselves what is important for them so as they choose not to strive now for exaltation because that desire is not strong enough to overcome their fear or laziness or whatever, they will hold that same priority of desires in their heart as they move through their phases of existence (assuming that is their true desire of their heart and not one formed by the fallen nature of mortality) so in the judgment they will receive a glorious reward but it will be one that will reflect their overall priorities whether they chose to completely reject living fulness of the gospel because it was not comfortable for them or gave it a half hearted, autopilot approach because they were brought up in the faith and it was easier to live by some of its precepts and within its culture because that was where one felt most comfortable or some other variation.

If otoh, their rejection was based on the result of something inherent to mortality and not their eternal nature, for example being raised by a family that rejects the fulness of the gospel because they have been taught and believe in contrary ideals of whatever type but still live valiantly according to the law they have been able to accept into their hearts, when it comes time when the imposed obstacles to belief are removed, they will IMO eagerly embrace the fulness just as the eagerly embraced and lived the partial gospel that was accessible to them in mortality.

Edited July 27, 2014 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

You've hit on what I believe to be one of the biggest flaws in Mormon theology.  In addition, we exert massive amounts of effort and resources trying to bring people into the church, yet I would estimate at best only 1/3 are able to ensure to the end.  Through our missionary efforts we are essentially "damning" twice as many soles as we are "saving".  Considering this life is but a blink of the eye in our eternal existence, wouldn't we all have been better off dying in infancy or the very least never having heard of the Church?

From what I've seen nothing is better, and indeed, many present many more and worse problems. With that said, I'm not sure what you describe as Mormon theology and its biggest flaw is necessarily Mormon theology nor a big flaw.

What does enduring to the end mean to you? What goes into your estimate of 1/3rd? I'm not sure how missionary efforts contribute to damning people as you say.

With that said, your last sentence is interesting and addresses concerns I have had as well. Perhaps a hundred billion people have lived in this world and the way we often view it, the smallest percent actually matter, which doesn't really follow. We often focus, it seems to me, on benefitting from the gospel and forget or ignore that people can benefit in this life just as well as any believer without the gospel.

[stemelbow]

If someone seeing the options decides it is better to put off seeking God now in order to avoid pain or hardship or making mistakes while being accountable for them given that their reward will be as great later as it would be now no matter what they do now, they are most likely right...for themselves. They have learned for themselves what is important for them so as they choose not to strive now for exaltation because that desire is not strong enough to overcome their fear or laziness or whatever, they will hold that same priority of desires in their heart as they move through their phases of existence (assuming that is their true desire of their heart and not one formed by the fallen nature of mortality) so in the judgment they will receive a glorious reward but it will be one that will reflect their overall priorities whether they chose to completely reject living fulness of the gospel because it was not comfortable for them or gave it a half hearted, autopilot approach because they were brought up in the faith and it was easier to live by some of its precepts and within its culture because that was where one felt most comfortable or some other variation.

fewf! long sentence. I'm not sure what type of character you have in mind with this judgment, though. So can you expand on that?

If otoh, their rejection was based on the result of something inherent to mortality and not their eternal nature, for example being raised by a family that rejects the fulness of the gospel because they have been taught and believe in contrary ideals of whatever type but still live valiantly according to the law they have been able to accept into their hearts, when it comes time when the imposed obstacles to belief are removed, they will IMO eagerly embrace the fulness just as the eagerly embraced and lived the partial gospel that was accessible to them in mortality.

I think what we seem to not consider is that everyone will eventually embrace the fullness. We just tend to think people who will inherit less than Celestial never embraced. Who will not bow and confess the Christ, after all?

[CV75]

You've hit on what I believe to be one of the biggest flaws in Mormon theology.  In addition, we exert massive amounts of effort and resources trying to bring people into the church, yet I would estimate at best only 1/3 are able to ensure to the end.  Through our missionary efforts we are essentially "damning" twice as many soles as we are "saving".  Considering this life is but a blink of the eye in our eternal existence, wouldn't we all have been better off dying in infancy or the very least never having heard of the Church?

The war in heaven simply continues, and people on both sides of the veil, until the resurrection, are waging it, some by influencing to do good, and others to do evil. No one is saved or condemned merely by hearing the Gospel, only by living or accepting it (respectively). Those who proclaim it are simply living it.

 

people can benefit in this life just as well as any believer without the gospel.

Only if they believe and apply as the Lord would have them, sometime before the resurrection.

 

I think what we seem to not consider is that everyone will eventually embrace the fullness. We just tend to think people who will inherit less than Celestial never embraced. Who will not bow and confess the Christ, after all?

Embracing the fulness is always an option before the resurrection, but not everyone who bows and confesses (which I suppose means that it is done after the resurrection, since such obeisance can only be performed with a resurrected body) actually embraces The Master or His ways.

Edited July 27, 2014 by CV75

[omni]

"  Through our missionary efforts we are essentially "damning" twice as many soles as we are "saving". "

That is assuming that simple exposure or even an initial connection using the Gift of the Holy Ghost constitutes a full chance at conversion. If it does not, there is no reason to assume anyone is damned because at this point they rejected the fulness of the gospel.

 

I wasn't very clear, but the 1/3 figure I mentioned was in reference to the estimated activity rate within the Church, not to those who may have simply had a couple of meetings with the missionaries.  When you look at the activity rate of converts the situation only gets more bleak.  Is it worth it to baptize new concerts knowing the majority will eventually fall away and essentially be damned to a lower kingdom?  Why not just allow them to accept the gospel in the afterlife?

[BCSpace]

Then you have the non members who lived their  life how they did, died, and had all the temple work done for them and they receive the same blessings.

 

 

They also have to personally believe the doctrine and accept the ordinances done.  While we know that the same spirit which possess our bodies here will possess them in the afterlife, and we infer alot from that, I'm curious as to what part does faith still play in those circumstances.  You're dead, yet you still live. You have contact, possibly with people you knew before they died etc. Wouldn't it be easy to conclude you should believe what you're being taught? Or is there some darkness, some exposure to opposing beliefs, that causes one to still doubt?

[Calm]

I wasn't very clear, but the 1/3 figure I mentioned was in reference to the estimated activity rate within the Church, not to those who may have simply had a couple of meetings with the missionaries.  When you look at the activity rate of converts the situation only gets more bleak.  Is it worth it to baptize new concerts knowing the majority will eventually fall away and essentially be damned to a lower kingdom?  Why not just allow them to accept the gospel in the afterlife?

I don't believe that just because someone is baptised and then falls away, they are not allowed to repent in the next life and gain exaltation. I believe it must be a real choice to do so, including being deceived (in essence they actually know but choose to dull their knowledge willingly like someone who takes drugs not because they are an addict but because they prefer the drug addled state).

[Calm]

fewf! long sentence. I'm not sure what type of character you have in mind with this judgment, though. So can you expand on that?I think what we seem to not consider is that everyone will eventually embrace the fullness. We just tend to think people who will inherit less than Celestial never embraced. Who will not bow and confess the Christ, after all?

I am bad with run on sentences and too tired to proof much right now.

There are those who knowingly will say when offered exaltation: I don't want it, too much work, too much responsibility, or i dont want to submit my will completely to God to become fully one with him. I don't want to continually learn and grow, I am content with where and who I am and don't want to change, or I don't want to take down all the walls around my heart...I'd rather protect myself from caring too much about others. Pick whatever selfimposed limitation you want, I suspect it will be used.

Mortality gives us an opportunity to learn what we truly want for ourselves separate from what God wants for us...like a child wanting to grow up to be a doctor because her parent is one only to find out when she gets to medical school she would rather be an engineer.

Though everyone will know what God is willing to give us, they will not accept the fulness of the blessings along with the fulness of the knowledge of the gospel. Otoh, there will be those in mortality who act the same way and may make the same choice now, but that is because of the influences of their fallen nature, not their eternal nature and once death comes and they are offered by God to have such infirmities of the soul be healed,they will joyfully embraced that blessing and all others including exaltation, IMO. We cannot at this point judge ourselves the difference between those who are not valiant by choice and those who are too limited by mortality to receive the fulness in the here and now in the depths of their soul but would if they could.

Edited July 27, 2014 by calmoriah

[cinepro]

Then to quote President Uchtdorf: "Stop it!"

 

Are you sure it was President Uchtdorf?

[The Nehor]

Will we really have the advantage in the life to come?

 

I honestly don't care. I think the attitude itself is kind of toxic. If I get a seat at the exaltation table I am good. Jesus did not have much patience for those worried about prominence in the coming Kingdom of God. The parable of the laborers in the vineyard suggests that some will do more and get the same reward while others do less. The Kingdom of God is not a meritocracy. Good thing too. If it was the meritocracy would be sorting out who rules in hell.

[Tiki]

 Considering this life is but a blink of the eye in our eternal existence, wouldn't we all have been better off dying in infancy or the very least never having heard of the Church?

Ask Adam and Eve.

I mean, someone has to perpetuate the species. We all can't evolve from stinky apes.

[Bikeemikey]

You look at exaltation and the plan of salvation, and you look at who receives it. You have all children who die before age 8, which were a very high rate of infant mortality throughout time, and they automatically get saved in the celestial kingdom and are exalted. Then you have the mentally handicapped who aren't held accountable either and they receive exaltation and get saved in the celestial kingdom.

This is a dramatically over simplified expression of a gospel concept that we really don't have much information on.

The way that you have expressed it is not something that I believe.

[Bikeemikey]

I honestly don't care. I think the attitude itself is kind of toxic. If I get a seat at the exaltation table I am good. Jesus did not have much patience for those worried about prominence in the coming Kingdom of God. The parable of the laborers in the vineyard suggests that some will do more and get the same reward while others do less. The Kingdom of God is not a meritocracy. Good thing too. If it was the meritocracy would be sorting out who rules in hell.

Well said!!

[rodheadlee]

You look at exaltation and the plan of salvation, and you look at who receives it. You have all children who die before age 8, which were a very high rate of infant mortality throughout time, and they automatically get saved in the celestial kingdom and are exalted. Then you have the mentally handicapped who aren't held accountable either and they receive exaltation and get saved in the celestial kingdom. Then you have the non members who lived their  life how they did, died, and had all the temple work done for them and they receive the same blessings. Those groups make up billions upon billions of people who will be saved in the celestial kingdom and exalated, and then you have us..............receiving the gospel here on earth, held to a higher standard where if we mess up and sin, the consequences are greater, all while the end result we're shooting for is the same as the other groups. So I have to ask, when you sin, don't you sometimes feel like it'd been better if you died before age 8 or been mentally handicapped, or never knew the gospel, but had the work done for you? Should we be jealous of those other groups of billions of people?

You would take Hope from us? You would have us shun the Light? Do you think us unwashed heathens don't feel pain?  Do you think we don't cry when our loved ones die? Should you be jealous of the hopeless?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsU015JWNJs

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2014 by rodheadlee

[JLHPROF]

 So I have to ask, when you sin, don't you sometimes feel like it'd been better if you died before age 8 or been mentally handicapped, or never knew the gospel, but had the work done for you? Should we be jealous of those other groups of billions of people?

 

Well, let's break it down -

 

"You have all children who die before age 8, which were a very high rate of infant mortality throughout time, and they automatically get saved in the celestial kingdom and are exalted."

 

The Lord takes many away, even in infancy, that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world; they were too pure, too lovely, to live on earth;  - Joseph Smith

AND

You will have the joy, the pleasure and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit. - Joseph Smith

 

This statement could easily be taken to mean that they had progressed further in their premortal existence and had less to prove on earth than we did.  They were already more perfected and really only needed a body to be saved (and weren't called to fill a specific mission like Jesus or Joseph Smith).  They will still need some progression to achieve their full exaltation but they got a jump start on us.

So in their case, they may well have merited your "easier path" just as we may merit an "easier" path than those who died in sin and receive the gospel in the next world because of our actions here.

 

Then you have the non members who lived their  life how they did, died, and had all the temple work done for them and they receive the same blessings.

 

You are missing a few steps there.

1. Did they die knowing of the gospel and rejecting it for sin? 

Well, then a period of repentance will be required of them along with accepting of the gospel and receiving of ordinances just as it is of us for exaltation.

And until they are willing to do that Alma 40:13-14 tells us they won't be happy.

 

2. Did they die not knowing of the gospel at all? 

Well then they need to be taught as Christ did in the Spirit Prison, repent and accept the gospel and receive the ordinances just we do for our exaltation.

They still have to progress and they are getting a later start.

 

3. They still have to overcome their mortal weaknesses just as we do - and they might be further behind than we are since the body in the grave is the same one resurrected and there is no progression in the grave (Joseph Smith, Joseph F. Smith, Alma 34:34).

 

So no, they don't have an easier path.  They have the same path at a different stage in their progression.  Where we have the opportunity to be resurrected quickly, progress sooner, and receive exaltation with the prophets and apostles, they may very well still be working out their exaltation and overcoming things we've already overcome.