CV75 Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I was just reading in a few consecutive chapters in Isaiah how to bow and confess (swear) does not necessarily translate into exaltation: 45:23-34, “I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.” For the righteous, this is strengthening and exalting, but for the wicked this is shaming and unpleasant.* 46:2 indicates that the wicked bow under the weight and pressure of the burden of punishment: “They stoop, they bow down together, they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.” Also 50:11, “This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.” “There is no peace, saith the Lord, unto the wicked (48:22)” even though “all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.” (49:26). * For example (47:1-5): “Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate… Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.”
mnn727 Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) To answer the O.P.'s question: Not everyone who has Temple work done will enter the Celestial Kingdom.There are 2 qualifiers for it. 1. they have to accept it2. they would have had to have lived the gospel had they known about it, meaning God knows our hearts and whether we would have been faithful. You can do Temple work for from now til doomsday for some people and if they just don't have it in their hearts to live it they will not make it to the CK. I had a friend of mine (from Church) whose Father had plenty of opportunity to accept the Gospel. (his wife and all kids were members in good standing) yet he wouldn't give up smoking, 15 or 16 sets of missionaries taught him the lessons but he kept telling his family just to do his Temple work after he died. To quote a current TV commercial (esurance) "That's not how it works, that's not how any of this works" That man had the opportunity to accept and live the Gospel and chose not to, he's out of luck for the CK by what I read. (now I will agree that only God knows what an honest opportunity is and what was in his heart and as always leave final judgement up to Him) We are blessed not only to have the Gospel in our lives today, but also to be able to take advantage of Christs redeeming sacrifice and be able to repent and then continue to learn and attempt to follow Him more closely, and repent again as needed. The Gospel had made me a much better man than I used to be (I am a convert of 21 years now - as of today in fact) Edited July 31, 2014 by mnn727
The Nehor Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Is that ultimately all there is to it? What if someone finds that they are happier without the gospel in their lives? Then they should probably stick to what works. They probably wouldn't like exaltation anyways. The wish to escape some of the trials of discipleship in this life is a common one in the LDS faith. In my own personal experience it was based on a "grass is greener" or "fleshpots of Egypt" mentality about those outside the church. It is a desire to sow wild oats and repent later so you don't "miss anything". That desire is part of what must be mastered to be exalted in any case.
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 How could anyone not like exaltation? What's not to like? And who wouldn't want the Celestial Kingdom? I can't wrap my head around people not wanting these amazing things. Exaltation and dwelling in the top of the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and my family is all I want in this universe.
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 How could anyone not like exaltation? What's not to like? In the past I've seen some on this board discuss how much they dislike children or the 'burden' of family or Church and priesthood responsibilities. I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that a person who finds kids an unwanted annoyance or who would rather stay home and watch the telly than go out on a cold night to try to lift and bless a home teaching family wouldn't, in that state at least, much enjoy 'all that the Father hath'.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 1, 2014 Author Posted August 1, 2014 Hamba good point. Let's all try to magnify our priesthood and church callings, and have a family. I'm slow on the family part because I need a wife still, but I'm trying to enjoy all the Father offers us.
The Nehor Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 How could anyone not like exaltation? What's not to like? And who wouldn't want the Celestial Kingdom? I can't wrap my head around people not wanting these amazing things. Exaltation and dwelling in the top of the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and my family is all I want in this universe. Some people imagine they are being humble when they are actually being lazy. I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that a person who finds kids an unwanted annoyance or who would rather stay home and watch the telly than go out on a cold night to try to lift and bless a home teaching family wouldn't, in that state at least, much enjoy 'all that the Father hath'. I am so damned. I want kids some day if I can ever find a woman who I want and who wants me (have found plenty of both individually, not sure why the two don't meld.....things may be looking up soon though). However I would rather read a book while sipping white chocolate cocoa flavored with caramel then go out to knock on someone's door to present a gospel message. I imagine that means my parents are damned too. They are both still very active in their 50s and are about to transition to empty nesters. They are already getting invites to gatherings where older folks get together to hear presentations on gospel topics and things of that nature. They turned them down and are sticking with their younger friends so they can go wakeboarding.
aaron0005 Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 They also have to personally believe the doctrine and accept the ordinances done. While we know that the same spirit which possess our bodies here will possess them in the afterlife, and we infer alot from that, I'm curious as to what part does faith still play in those circumstances. You're dead, yet you still live. You have contact, possibly with people you knew before they died etc. Wouldn't it be easy to conclude you should believe what you're being taught? Or is there some darkness, some exposure to opposing beliefs, that causes one to still doubt?I think this is one of the beliefs in the church that is highly flawed. What does it mean that one will possess the same spirit they did in this life when entering the next? Things impact us and change us all the time. It is beyond me to think dying and entering the next life will not change a person far more than any earthly experience. Especially if you have suffered a great deal in your body in this life, as many old people do. People can drastically change pretty fast. I think you may have some people indulged in sin who are mentally handicapped or suffer in some other way and will find it a relief to leave their bodies.
mbh26 Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 Then they should probably stick to what works. They probably wouldn't like exaltation anyways. The wish to escape some of the trials of discipleship in this life is a common one in the LDS faith. In my own personal experience it was based on a "grass is greener" or "fleshpots of Egypt" mentality about those outside the church. It is a desire to sow wild oats and repent later so you don't "miss anything". That desire is part of what must be mastered to be exalted in any case. I think if people had better reasons not to choose inactivity now, repentance later, then exaltation through grace just like everyone else, they might "master" that desire. But right now, the Mormon/Christian gospel doesn't have the reasons many people would need to motivate them to strive to live differently.
The Nehor Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 I think if people had better reasons not to choose inactivity now, repentance later, then exaltation through grace just like everyone else, they might "master" that desire. But right now, the Mormon/Christian gospel doesn't have the reasons many people would need to motivate them to strive to live differently. If everything in the Universe including supreme happiness is not sufficient motivation I am not sure what could. The idea of inactivity now and repentance tomorrow rarely works. To quote the musical Les Miserables: "They sang songs about tomorrow and tomorrow never came." Also, anyone who tries to repent after using that rationale is in for a rude awakening. They can repent but it will take a change of heart. Your mercenary plan won't work. 2
mbh26 Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 If everything in the Universe including supreme happiness is not sufficient motivation I am not sure what could Even if you promise them the entire universe, why would they want to pay more in pain and suffering when they could get the same universe for less?
Calm Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 Even if you promise them the entire universe, why would they want to pay more in pain and suffering when they could get the same universe for less? Because they won't get it if they approach it that way.
mbh26 Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 Because they won't get it if they approach it that way. The prodigal son did.
Calm Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) Not really.When he returned, he wasn't looking to get part of the inheritance or even a welcome home. He went home expecting to be treated as a servant, not as a son. He went home in humility, being willing to accept any sacrifice that was required of him. His heart had been changed.People who expect to be allowed into exaltation at the end due to last moment repentance are more like those who arrive late at the wedding feast and are denied entrance because they couldn't be bothered to come when they were called.Those who are rewarded with exaltation though they came at the end were still willing to come when the Lord called them, even if it was at the last of the day. Edited August 3, 2014 by calmoriah
mbh26 Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) When he returned, he wasn't looking to get part of the inheritance or even a welcome home. He went home expecting to be treated as a servant, not as a son. He went home in humility, being willing to accept any sacrifice that was required of him. His heart had been changed. Whether he expected it or not, he still got everything he would have obtained by staying and enduring to the end. Even the most faithful member would never dare expect exaltation because that would be considered prideful. How is that any more reassuring than the route taken by the prodigal son? being willing to accept any sacrifice that was required of him. He wasn't sacrificing anything when he went home because he had nothing to sacrifice. He went home to get a better life as a servant not to make a donation. He had a chance to sacrifice his time and his youth in service to his father but chose not to do so. He wasn't given or burdened with another chance to make the same sacrifice. He was simply immediately exalted to the same position or perhaps even better than he would have been in had he stayed. Those who are rewarded with exaltation though they came at the end were still willing to come when the Lord called them, even if it was at the last of the day. Are you saying that people who didn't come when the Lord called them the first time but waited to be called at the end of the day will not be rewarded with the same exaltation? Edited August 3, 2014 by mbh26
wenglund Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) I wasn't very clear, but the 1/3 figure I mentioned was in reference to the estimated activity rate within the Church, not to those who may have simply had a couple of meetings with the missionaries. When you look at the activity rate of converts the situation only gets more bleak. Is it worth it to baptize new concerts knowing the majority will eventually fall away and essentially be damned to a lower kingdom? Why not just allow them to accept the gospel in the afterlife? This is, in principle, like asking whether it is worth converting people to institutionalized schooling since less than a third of students complete doctoral levels of education. Thanks, -Wade Englund- Edited August 3, 2014 by wenglund
Calm Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) Are you saying that people who didn't come when the Lord called them the first time but waited to be called at the end of the day will not be rewarded with the same exaltation? No, the workers are only called once. They came when they were called....they were not given a choice of working whenever they wanted even if those called late were rewarded the same:https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2020:1–16;&version=NIVThe lost son was willing to sacrifice his prestige or place as a son and have instead the same social standing as the hired servant, he was removing any obligation the father had towards him as his blood....he was in essence saying "thy will, not mine be done". Edited August 4, 2014 by calmoriah
mbh26 Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 No, the workers are only called once. They came when they were called....they were not given a choice of working whenever they wanted even if those called late were rewarded the same: Applying the parable to real life, are people called more than once? It seems from what I've been taught, if someone rejects the gospel, but decides to accept it later than the result is the same. In other words, there's no measurable difference or progression that has been gained through a lifetime of living the gospel. You could even change your mind in the spirit world. You just have to be repentant in the end, which ends up being true for everyone, saints and sinners both. Is that no so?
Calm Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I think why one is repentant is at least as important as repenting.Those who repent out of fear of punishment will e rewarded by not being punished. Those who repent out of a desire to be rewarded will receive a wonderful reward. Those who do it out of love for God will become one with him and because of that oneness be exalted and inherit all that he has. 1
mbh26 Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I think why one is repentant is at least as important as repenting.Those who repent out of fear of punishment will e rewarded by not being punished. Those who repent out of a desire to be rewarded will receive a wonderful reward. Those who do it out of love for God will become one with him and because of that oneness be exalted and inherit all that he has. That actually makes a lot a sense. Thanks.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 4, 2014 Author Posted August 4, 2014 Thanks calmoriah that changes my view on how and why I repent.
The Nehor Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 The prodigal son did.The prodigal was not planning on repenting later. He was not planning on coming back at all. 1
Recommended Posts