Are We Really So Lucky To Have The Gospel Right Now In Our Lives?

[mbh26]

 like someone who takes drugs not because they are an addict but because they prefer the drug addled state).

 

What is addiction if it's not that?  

Edited July 27, 2014 by mbh26

[Calm]

I am talking about someone who does not have cravings but just does it for pure pleasure or numbing and could stop any time if something else became important to him, even something very minor. There is no anxiety or other emotional or physical symptoms if he chooses not to take it.

Alcohol is often used in this fashion. People drink to get buzzed or even drunk but do not crave another drink though they may desire it and even choose to give into that desire.

Addiction changes the way the brain responds to the drug.

Edited July 27, 2014 by calmoriah

[mbh26]

So no, they don't have an easier path.  They have the same path at a different stage in their progression.  Where we have the opportunity to be resurrected quickly, progress sooner, and receive exaltation with the prophets and apostles, they may very well still be working out their exaltation and overcoming things we've already overcome.

 

That's the way I was brought up to believe as well.  But I've seen a movement in the Church against this idea that says, everyone is saved by grace without the need for extra progression by the individual.  One has to wonder, how have you progressed by sitting through more meetings than someone else.  What could that progression be?  What do you know that an inactive member doesn't know?  

Edited July 27, 2014 by mbh26

[Calm]

It is less about comparing individuals to each other and instead comparing what one once was to one's current state.

[The Nehor]

I wasn't very clear, but the 1/3 figure I mentioned was in reference to the estimated activity rate within the Church, not to those who may have simply had a couple of meetings with the missionaries.  When you look at the activity rate of converts the situation only gets more bleak.  Is it worth it to baptize new concerts knowing the majority will eventually fall away and essentially be damned to a lower kingdom?  Why not just allow them to accept the gospel in the afterlife?

 

This assumes that the afterlife retention rate is higher. I suspect it is lower there.

[The Nehor]

What is addiction if it's not that?  

 

Addiction is something you feel a compulsion to do. Many who take drugs do not have the compulsion. They just want to escape. I have basically never drank in any significant quality in my life but I felt the urge to drink a few years back when my life fell apart. Not because I was addicted but because I wanted to dull the edge of my sorrow. Not all drug users are addicts.

 

 

That's the way I was brought up to believe as well.  But I've seen a movement in the Church against this idea that says, everyone is saved by grace without the need for extra progression by the individual.  One has to wonder, how have you progressed by sitting through more meetings than someone else.  What could that progression be?  What do you know that an inactive member doesn't know?  

 

I know lots of things inactives do not know. There are the obvious emotional ones like hope and then there is the knowledge I am receiving via the Holy Ghost due to sitting through these meetings. A large portion of it is self-knowledge and individually directed revelation but a good part of it is deeper truths within the gospel.

[JLHPROF]

 One has to wonder, how have you progressed by sitting through more meetings than someone else.  What could that progression be?  What do you know that an inactive member doesn't know?  

 

Well, the importance of attending our meetings springs to mind...

But seriously, it's not about meeting attendance, it's about opportunities to learn and grow in the gospel.  Someone who puts gospel things to the fore is going to progress more rapidly than someone who generally ignores religion.  At least, that's my opinion, but I'm sure I could find dozens of teachings to that effect.

[mbh26]

In response to the original post, I'm just glad to hear that someone else in this world has stumbled upon this same concern as me.  I never found a satisfactory answer.  I guess it either bothers you or it doesn't.  You either like it, or you don't.  

[janderich]

You look at exaltation and the plan of salvation, and you look at who receives it. You have all children who die before age 8, which were a very high rate of infant mortality throughout time, and they automatically get saved in the celestial kingdom and are exalted. Then you have the mentally handicapped who aren't held accountable either and they receive exaltation and get saved in the celestial kingdom. 

Statements from Joseph lead me to believe that children who die before the age of accountability are not automatically exalted. Rather, they must be sealed for time and all eternity in the bonds of matrimony or they will be shut out of exaltation. Granted they will enter the celestial kingdom but that will be the end unless they are sealed to a spouse.

 

William Clayton records Joseph as saying: "They [children] will have as much intelligence as we shall but shall always remain separate and single." Commenting on this in The Words of Joseph Smith we read:

That is to say, if, after this life and before their resurrection, they did not accept of the exalting ordinances of the gospel, they would remain "separate and single" ("separately and singlely, without exaltation" as in D&C 132:17). It appears clear then that his point was that they would not automatically be assured of exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, even though they would be assured admittance into the Celestial Kingdom (See Moroni 8:8, 10, 12-15 [4-26]; D&C 137:10; 131:1-4; 132;16-20. (20 March 1842, note 22)

 

[janderich]

No, the reward is the same no matter when or how we get there. “Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God; For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men... [and as other scriptures point out, both the accountable and the non-accountable] (D&C 18:10-11)” So we each have His equal and undivided attention. If the reward is the same, so is anything that opposes it (the non-accountable have their particular kind of suffering also, but they may not envy us because of their more advanced spiritual understanding).

 

“Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. (D&C 130:18-19)”. “This life” is any period prior to the resurrection, and both the accountable and the non-accountable go through it, and each child of God must attain the principles of knowledge and intelligence to be exalted, though they may take different paths at different times to do so.

 

The grass is never greener!

"This life" in D&C 130:18 means exactly what it says. It does not include the next life. This is the same with Alma 34:32. God will judge according to our knowledge, but we cannot perfect our bodies while in the spirit world. The gospel is preached in the spirit world so that men might "live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6). In other words, that they might receive the joy of the gospel while awaiting the resurrection, but their course has already been set.

[Guest]

You look at exaltation and the plan of salvation, and you look at who receives it. You have all children who die before age 8, which were a very high rate of infant mortality throughout time, and they automatically get saved in the celestial kingdom and are exalted. Then you have the mentally handicapped who aren't held accountable either and they receive exaltation and get saved in the celestial kingdom. Then you have the non members who lived their  life how they did, died, and had all the temple work done for them and they receive the same blessings. Those groups make up billions upon billions of people who will be saved in the celestial kingdom and exalated, and then you have us..............receiving the gospel here on earth, held to a higher standard where if we mess up and sin, the consequences are greater, all while the end result we're shooting for is the same as the other groups. So I have to ask, when you sin, don't you sometimes feel like it'd been better if you died before age 8 or been mentally handicapped, or never knew the gospel, but had the work done for you? Should we be jealous of those other groups of billions of people?

We get to enjoy eternal life now, build families now, build friendships now, love now, suffer now, overcome now. Yes we are blessed above measure. What could be better?

[strappinglad]

I look upon " this life" as referring to the second estate which includes mortal and spirit world pre-resurrection. Otherwise, the need for temple work seems moot.

Edited July 28, 2014 by strappinglad

[VideoGameJunkie]

Pa Pa good point.

[janderich]

I look upon " this life" as referring to the second estate which includes mortal and spirit world pre-resurrection. Otherwise, the need for temple work seems mute.

No this does not make temple work moot. It still frees those in bondage and allows them to receive blessings of gospel ordinances. The real problem is that we have twisted scripture to our own ends believing that the spirit world gives us and others a second chance. Not so! We must live here and now to the best of our ability and according to the light we have received. This applies equally to member and non-member.

[CV75]

"This life" in D&C 130:18 means exactly what it says. It does not include the next life. This is the same with Alma 34:32. God will judge according to our knowledge, but we cannot perfect our bodies while in the spirit world. The gospel is preached in the spirit world so that men might "live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6). In other words, that they might receive the joy of the gospel while awaiting the resurrection, but their course has already been set.

“Exactly?” That depends on when you believe the next life begins. If “this life” means what we now experience with the connected body and spirit, the “next life” will be what we experience when the body and spirit are inseparably connected. The interim between the two is described in Alma 40 and D&C 138.

 

Note that this final crisis occurs upon the resurrection (Alma 34:34), and not during the “space betwixt the time of death and the time of the resurrection (Alma 40:6-21). President Joseph Fielding Smith described what else happens there (D&C 138). This is why “the final state of the wicked” in Alma 34:35-36 refers to those who will not sit down (a resurrected function) with Him in His kingdom.

 

Note that the “labor performed” in Alma 34:33 (and the labor mentioned in D&C 138:28, 52 and 57) is a spiritual labor, made all the more difficult by the absence of the body, as evidenced by the great difficulty we see in providing temple ordinances for all the world’s dead.

 

Everyone’s bodies are perfected in the resurrection (Alma 11:43), but the complete soul (the inseparably connected body and spirit) is only perfected according to the spirit each has become by that time (D&C 88).

 

To me, to "live according to God in the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6) can be done with or without a body. I try to "live according to God in the spirit" every day, and I’m not dead yet!

[CV75]

No this does not make temple work moot. It still frees those in bondage and allows them to receive blessings of gospel ordinances. The real problem is that we have twisted scripture to our own ends believing that the spirit world gives us and others a second chance. Not so! We must live here and now to the best of our ability and according to the light we have received. This applies equally to member and non-member.

That is right--it is not a "second chance" but a continuum of the same opportunity to receive the invitation of the arms of mercy (Alma 5:33 and elsewhere), which extend in life and death, right up until the final judgment.

[janderich]

“Exactly?” That depends on when you believe the next life begins. If “this life” means what we now experience with the connected body and spirit, the “next life” will be what we experience when the body and spirit are inseparably connected. The interim between the two is described in Alma 40 and D&C 138.

 Each must determine what is ment by "this life". However, I have found safety in believing that the scriptures apply to me now and not in some vague future.

 

Note that this final crisis occurs upon the resurrection (Alma 34:34), and not during the “space betwixt the time of death and the time of the resurrection (Alma 40:6-21). President Joseph Fielding Smith described what else happens there (D&C 138). This is why “the final state of the wicked” in Alma 34:35-36 refers to those who will not sit down (a resurrected function) with Him in His kingdom.

 Again, your above explanation is dependent on the words, "this life". When Alma comments on the "awful crisis" he is referring to the previous verse wherein he says, "if we do not improve our time while in this life" (Alma 34:33)

 

Note that the “labor performed” in Alma 34:33 (and the labor mentioned in D&C 138:28, 52 and 57) is a spiritual labor, made all the more difficult by the absence of the body, as evidenced by the great difficulty we see in providing temple ordinances for all the world’s dead.

 

Everyone’s bodies are perfected in the resurrection (Alma 11:43), but the complete soul (the inseparably connected body and spirit) is only perfected according to the spirit each has become by that time (D&C 88).

 Bodies are perfect in form, not in character or attributes, for the scripture says, "The spirit and body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame" (Alma 11:43). 

 

At the resurrection the soul is perfected according to the body we receive as given in D&C 88:28, "Your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened." Please note the tense used. The glory we will receive will be determined by the glory by which our bodies are (not will be) quickened. Again, here and now is the time to perfect our bodies.

 

To me, to "live according to God in the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6) can be done with or without a body. I try to "live according to God in the spirit" every day, and I’m not dead yet!

The full verse says this, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to me in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit". See their judgement is according to men in the flesh. They are not judged by their life as a spirit. Rather, they live according to God in the spirit but it does not have a bearing on the judgement. I now find it interesting we have twisted such a plain teaching.

Edited July 28, 2014 by janderich

[VideoGameJunkie]

janderich, do you believe a good hearted person who dies single will have the chance for a wife in the afterlife, or do we only have this mortal life to find a spouse?

[janderich]

janderich, do you believe a good hearted person who dies single will have the chance for a wife in the afterlife, or do we only have this mortal life to find a spouse?

There have been numerous promises that a good person, who through no fault of their own, but who is yet single, will receive all the blessings reserved for the faithful, including exaltation. I have no reason to doubt such statements. However, I believe they will need to work all of this out before the resurrection for after such a time they are "neither marry nor are given in marriage" (Matt 22:30). Perhaps there may yet be a time during the millennium when temple sealings are done for all those who were never married in this life.

Edited July 28, 2014 by janderich

[CV75]

 Each must determine what is ment by "this life". However, I have found safety in believing that the scriptures apply to me now and not in some vague future.

Of course—I was thinking the same thing. “This life” is always “now” hence the counsel to “not procrastinate the day of your repentance.” (Alma 13:27). We should be “quick to observe,” “anxiously engaged,” etc. But the invitation to repent “now” doesn’t end until the resurrection, which is why work for the dead is every bit as saving as work for the living.

 

 Again, your above explanation is dependent on the words, "this life". When Alma comments on the "awful crisis" he is referring to the previous verse wherein he says, "if we do not improve our time while in this life" (Alma 34:33)

Yes, and the “awful crisis,” you will note, occurs upon resurrection, when that same spirit has power to possess his body in that eternal world.

 

Bodies are perfect in form, not in character or attributes, for the scripture says, "The spirit and body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame" (Alma 11:43). 

 

At the resurrection the soul is perfected according to the body we receive as given in D&C 88:28, "Your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened." Please note the tense used. The glory we will receive will be determined by the glory by which our bodies are (not will be) quickened. Again, here and now is the time to perfect our bodies.

The soul is not perfected according to the body it receives but according to the Lord’s granting of quickening glory to both the spirit and the body which is the soul. From D&C 88: 15 – 28, “And the spirit and the body are the soul of man. And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul… And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things [all things being body and spirit]… They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.” This means that Christ will quicken the bodies of those with celestial spirits with a corresponding celestial glory, and those with celestial spirits are those that have also been quickened (sanctified and justified) by His power prior to the resurrection, or prior to the quickening of the bodies. He gives their spirits power to possess their bodies, some to face an “awful crisis” and some to “receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.”

 

The full verse says this, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to me in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit". See their judgement is according to men in the flesh. They are not judged by their life as a spirit. Rather, they live according to God in the spirit but it does not have a bearing on the judgement. I now find it interesting we have twisted such a plain teaching.

The full verse, in context with the full section and other scriptures, renders the proper teaching. Those who receive the Gospel message in the spirit world and receive the temple ordinances performed in their behalf will be rightly judged according to men in the flesh; that is the whole reason for proxy temple work being performed on our side of the veil, in the flesh--that is the only place and condition in which the ordinances can be performed. That is why they are not performed for those in the pre-mortal life by proxy temple work.  I think folks sometimes get being "judged in the flesh" confused with the second resurrection, but those who receive the Gospel message in the spirit world and receive the temple ordinances performed in their behalf may come forth in the first resurrection on the same conditions described in D&C 88, as if they had attained a celestial spirit while yet in the flesh.

 

But no one can attain a celestial spirit in the flesh or in the spirit world without receiving the Gospel message and priesthood ordinances, no matter how well they abide in the light of Christ in this world. They can prepare, but cannot do it without taking upon themselves the name of Christ.

[CV75]

There have been numerous promises that a good person, who through no fault of their own, but who is yet single, will receive all the blessings reserved for the faithful, including exaltation. I have no reason to doubt such statements. However, I believe they will need to work all of this out before the resurrection for after such a time they are "neither marry nor are given in marriage" (Matt 22:30). Perhaps there may yet be a time during the millennium when temple sealings are done for all those who were never married in this life.

This is a good example of doing something to attain exaltation before the resurrection but after this mortal phase. Temple sealings performed for others who are not yet resurrected is an example of helping them to be judged according to men in the flesh as they live according to God in the spirit.

[stemelbow]

Only if they believe and apply as the Lord would have them, sometime before the resurrection.

...which just so happen will be everyone.

 

ng the fulness is always an option before the resurrection, but not everyone who bows and confesses (which I suppose means that it is done after the resurrection, since such obeisance can only be performed with a resurrected body) actually embraces The Master or His ways.

Hmm...seems to be a rather interesting presumption. Who could say that we can bow and confess in spirit bodies? Who could say that those who bow and confess don't actually embrace The Master and His ways?

[stemelbow]

I am bad with run on sentences and too tired to proof much right now.

There are those who knowingly will say when offered exaltation: I don't want it, too much work, too much responsibility, or i dont want to submit my will completely to God to become fully one with him. I don't want to continually learn and grow, I am content with where and who I am and don't want to change, or I don't want to take down all the walls around my heart...I'd rather protect myself from caring too much about others. Pick whatever selfimposed limitation you want, I suspect it will be used.

I wonder who that would be.

Mortality gives us an opportunity to learn what we truly want for ourselves separate from what God wants for us...like a child wanting to grow up to be a doctor because her parent is one only to find out when she gets to medical school she would rather be an engineer.

Could be. But how would we know that we couldn't have figured out what we wanted without mortality?

Though everyone will know what God is willing to give us, they will not accept the fulness of the blessings along with the fulness of the knowledge of the gospel. Otoh, there will be those in mortality who act the same way and may make the same choice now, but that is because of the influences of their fallen nature, not their eternal nature and once death comes and they are offered by God to have such infirmities of the soul be healed,they will joyfully embraced that blessing and all others including exaltation, IMO. We cannot at this point judge ourselves the difference between those who are not valiant by choice and those who are too limited by mortality to receive the fulness in the here and now in the depths of their soul but would if they could.

I may end up in those shoes. I see people suffering eternally and may have to admit, I can't just run off to eternity of exaltation knowing what is left behind. It's a terribly weird sounding scenario we try to paint here. Its as if we are given the most and feel too embarrassed to take it, like if your neighbor bought you a new car for mowing his lawn or something. It doesn't really make sense. Then the only people who get exalted are people who brazenly accept that which they don't really deserve--the selfish folks.

Not sure I can buy into that type of thing.

[CV75]

...which just so happen will be everyone.

We can only hope!

 

Hmm...seems to be a rather interesting presumption. Who could say that we can bow and confess in spirit bodies? Who could say that those who bow and confess don't actually embrace The Master and His ways?

They can, but not “according to men in the flesh” because they have no flesh… In any case, not everyone who bows and confesses also take the extra step(s) to embrace The Master or His ways. They are not sufficiently valiant (D&C 76:79) or sufficiently receptive to being valiant (76:86) to go that far.

 

There is a vast difference between merely "bowing and confessing" and "embracing" (Hebrews 11;13-16).

[Calm]

IMO, it is not about accepting the new car after mowing the guy's lawn. It is closer to being so committed to a loving and supportive relationship with your neighbour that when he offers to open his house to you if you are willing to obey house rules and share that love with all who accept his offer, you jump at the chance and would whether it meant living in a hovel and starving or living in the endless mansion it actually is.

It is our selfish natural man that considers the side benefits first. If we are ever really capable of accepting exaltation, we will have moved long past that priority and the desire to be one with God will so overshadow the rest it will simply be seen as more ways to worship and glorify God with...again in my opinion.