Are We Really So Lucky To Have The Gospel Right Now In Our Lives?

[CV75]

I wonder who that would be.

See D&C 76:109-112 in conjunction with D&C 88:32.

 

Could be. But how would we know that we couldn't have figured out what we wanted without mortality?

By being in mortality and figuring out what we want (or not).

 

 

brazenly

It doesn't work that way: it's more like "humbly, meekly, charitably."

[stemelbow]

IMO, it is not about accepting the new car after mowing the guy's lawn. It is closer to being so committed to a loving and supportive relationship with your neighbour that when he offers to open his house to you if you are willing to obey house rules and share that love with all who accept his offer, you jump at the chance and would whether it meant living in a hovel and starving or living in the endless mansion it actually is.

It is our selfish natural man that considers the side benefits first. If we are ever really capable of accepting exaltation, we will have moved long past that priority and the desire to be one with God will so overshadow the rest it will simply be seen as more ways to worship and glorify God with...again in my opinion.

SOme day we'll see I guess, but I don't get how we'll, any one of us, will ever feel like we should be exalted. We all should/would, it seems to me, if we're honest with ourselves, concede we probably should be somewhere less with everyone else who said swear words during their lives or whatever. The issue I'm speaking to is more along the lines of, it is extremely difficult to imagine going into a house while most people are left out, uninvited and are starving as a result. I ain't nothing after all.

[stemelbow]

We can only hope!

 

They can, but not “according to men in the flesh” because they have no flesh… In any case, not everyone who bows and confesses also take the extra step(s) to embrace The Master or His ways.

Well of course not, most people will accept that they aren't on the same playing field and thus don't deserve any exalting. Those who do accept that they deserve it over another, must have some reason. I simply can't imagine any reason at all that we can accept that would say we should be exalted while others are not. I may, when the time comes, humbly admit, I belong amongst the lowest of the low, toiling with them, rather than sitting in a kingly sphere. Not sure I can stomach it.

They are not sufficiently valiant (D&C 76:79) or sufficiently receptive to being valiant (76:86) to go that far.

I think eternally everyone will accept good over evil (perhaps those sons of perdition won't). Those in Telestial glory aren't going to be reveling in murder any longer, no? They will have embraced love and peace, no doubt. Perhaps it'll be too late for them. Perhaps not. I know not. I'm not sure I understand as God does what is considered valiant, since every soul I've ever been able tog et to know is part valiant and part not.

 

There is a vast difference between merely "bowing and confessing" and "embracing" (Hebrews 11;13-16).

Only in theory. In practice it's the same thing.

[stemelbow]

It doesn't work that way: it's more like "humbly, meekly, charitably."

That's what I'm saying. It makes the idea that we get what we want sound silly, to me anyway.

[Calm]

SOme day we'll see I guess, but I don't get how we'll, any one of us, will ever feel like we should be exalted. We all should/would, it seems to me, if we're honest with ourselves, concede we probably should be somewhere less with everyone else who said swear words during their lives or whatever. The issue I'm speaking to is more along the lines of, it is extremely difficult to imagine going into a house while most people are left out, uninvited and are starving as a result. I ain't nothing after all.

Why do you think that we will feel like we should be exalted just because we accept the gift?  Don't you accept gifts now that you feel you don't deserve because they are given to you in love and you want to honour the giver?  And having delight in the gift and enjoying it is how you honor them because they have joy in your delight.

 

Everyone is invited to the house.  Those who live in their house have probably spent a great deal of time trying to convince others how wonderful it is.  

 

The difference is whether or not they are willing to come in or not.  The house is constructed in such a way that in order to live comfortably in it, one has to live with the conditions there…just like every other home I've been in.  And there may be some that don't like the way the family culture is set up so they don't want to have a part of it, just like some family members I already know.

Edited July 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

 Those in Telestial glory aren't going to be reveling in murder any longer, no? They will have embraced love and peace, no doubt. 

 

Peace…since contention is ungodly, yes I do believe there will be an absence of contention there.  And an absence of hate.

 

But peace and love being embraced doesn't automatically follow.  If you don't hate someone, it doesn't mean you love them.  If you are not at war with  others, doesn't mean you experience the peace of the spirit.

 

Only in theory. In practice it's the same thing.

 

Externally perhaps, not internally.

Edited July 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

Why do you think that we will feel like we should be exalted just because we accept the gift?  Don't you accept gifts now that you feel you don't deserve because they are given to you in love and you want to honour the giver?  And having delight in the gift and enjoying it is how you honor them because they have joy in your delight.

Just saying it's hard to imagine that I'd be able to happily accept it seeing as far more people will not be offered the gift, in the end. I would ask, why me and not them? Not sure the answer to that question could satisfy. But I'm not sitting there now. Just imagining it.

 

Everyone is invited to the house.  Those who live in their house have probably spent a great deal of time trying to convince others how wonderful it is.

I thought the analogy was meant to refer to exaltation. Not everyone will be invited, as I understand. Most will be left out to suffer.

 

The difference is whether or not they are willing to come in or not.  The house is constructed in such a way that in order to live comfortably in it, one has to live with the conditions there…just like every other home I've been in.  And there may be some that don't like the way the family culture is set up so they don't want to have a part of it, just like some family members I already know.

Doesn't make sense to me.

[stemelbow]

Peace…since contention is ungodly, yes I do believe there will be an absence of contention there.  And an absence of hate.

 

But peace and love being embraced doesn't automatically follow.  If you don't hate someone, it doesn't mean you love them.  If you are not at war with  others, doesn't mean you experience the peace of the spirit.

 

Externally perhaps, not internally.

I see it different. When there's not hate, there's love. Nothing left in between. If there is an absence of hate, then there's nothing left but love. Not sure how it's possible for something else without hate.

[CV75]

Well of course not, most people will accept that they aren't on the same playing field and thus don't deserve any exalting. Those who do accept that they deserve it over another, must have some reason. I simply can't imagine any reason at all that we can accept that would say we should be exalted while others are not. I may, when the time comes, humbly admit, I belong amongst the lowest of the low, toiling with them, rather than sitting in a kingly sphere. Not sure I can stomach it.

It’s not our decision what we should get, but the Lord has laid out the principles that He follows and that He invites and enables us to follow.

 

I think eternally everyone will accept good over evil (perhaps those sons of perdition won't). Those in Telestial glory aren't going to be reveling in murder any longer, no? They will have embraced love and peace, no doubt. Perhaps it'll be too late for them. Perhaps not. I know not. I'm not sure I understand as God does what is considered valiant, since every soul I've ever been able tog et to know is part valiant and part not.

We only know that there are some who are valiant and some who are not, and that they reside in separate kingdoms. I think it is possible to recognize it when we see it in ourselves or others (when the Lord so reveals it), but not for those who are inclined to condemn others.

 

Only in theory. In practice it's the same thing.

When I bow and confess and when I embrace, I am doing two different things with two different levels of oneness with the Lord, both literally and figuratively.

[CV75]

That's what I'm saying. It makes the idea that we get what we want sound silly, to me anyway.

What is wrong with getting what one wants, if it is aligned with what the Lord wants and He wants to give it to him?

[Calm]

Just saying it's hard to imagine that I'd be able to happily accept it seeing as far more people will not be offered the gift, in the end. I would ask, why me and not them? .

Everyone is offered the gift of exaltation.

Some say no. They do so by making choices for other things they want more.

Edited July 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I see it different. When there's not hate, there's love. Nothing left in between. If there is an absence of hate, then there's nothing left but love. Not sure how it's possible for something else without hate.

Have you never experienced indifference.

[Shizfan]

Addiction is something you feel a compulsion to do. Many who take drugs do not have the compulsion. They just want to escape. I have basically never drank in any significant quality in my life but I felt the urge to drink a few years back when my life fell apart. Not because I was addicted but because I wanted to dull the edge of my sorrow. Not all drug users are addicts.

 

 

As a professional in this field, a general definition of addiction is: Continued use of a substance or thing, in spite of negative consequences. Addiction is also biological in nature as well. Like you said not everyone who uses substances are addicts but people who are pre disposed to addiction who don't ever use will never become an addict. Addiction is psychological as well, if people just got "clean" physically and then never used again, I'd be out of a job. If someone uses due to emotional reasons they could become an addict based on continuing to use in spite of any type of negative consequence. It's not "addiction" you feel a compulsion to do....it's a compulsion to want to use a substance in order to numb emotions or escape, which in turn may lead to addiction. Anyways just throwing that in there for ya.

[janderich]

Of course—I was thinking the same thing. “This life” is always “now” hence the counsel to “not procrastinate the day of your repentance.” (Alma 13:27). We should be “quick to observe,” “anxiously engaged,” etc. But the invitation to repent “now” doesn’t end until the resurrection, which is why work for the dead is every bit as saving as work for the living.

 

Yes, and the “awful crisis,” you will note, occurs upon resurrection, when that same spirit has power to possess his body in that eternal world.

 

The soul is not perfected according to the body it receives but according to the Lord’s granting of quickening glory to both the spirit and the body which is the soul. From D&C 88: 15 – 28, “And the spirit and the body are the soul of man. And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul… And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things [all things being body and spirit]… They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.” This means that Christ will quicken the bodies of those with celestial spirits with a corresponding celestial glory, and those with celestial spirits are those that have also been quickened (sanctified and justified) by His power prior to the resurrection, or prior to the quickening of the bodies. He gives their spirits power to possess their bodies, some to face an “awful crisis” and some to “receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.”

 

The full verse, in context with the full section and other scriptures, renders the proper teaching. Those who receive the Gospel message in the spirit world and receive the temple ordinances performed in their behalf will be rightly judged according to men in the flesh; that is the whole reason for proxy temple work being performed on our side of the veil, in the flesh--that is the only place and condition in which the ordinances can be performed. That is why they are not performed for those in the pre-mortal life by proxy temple work.  I think folks sometimes get being "judged in the flesh" confused with the second resurrection, but those who receive the Gospel message in the spirit world and receive the temple ordinances performed in their behalf may come forth in the first resurrection on the same conditions described in D&C 88, as if they had attained a celestial spirit while yet in the flesh.

 

But no one can attain a celestial spirit in the flesh or in the spirit world without receiving the Gospel message and priesthood ordinances, no matter how well they abide in the light of Christ in this world. They can prepare, but cannot do it without taking upon themselves the name of Christ.

There is repentance, there is change in the spirit world and one prepares himself for the resurrection by turning to God and accepting ordinances. But in the spirit world this change has to do with our spirit. To perfect our bodies we must inhabit our bodies. It is that simple. There will come a day when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. But those who wait till the end will not be saved in the celestial kingdom. Why? Because they did not perfect their body while in mortality. 

 

God is just. All have an equal opportunity to progress. The spirit world offers individuals a chance to receive the fullness of the glory they attained in mortality but no more. That is why the scriptures say, "Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7-9). Heirs of the celestial kingdom prepared themselves while on earth to receive the gospel. They just didn't have the chance. These people would have received it here on this mortal world if offered it. However, if they would have rejected it while on the earth, they will not be heirs of the celestial kingdom. 

[CV75]

perfect their body while in mortality

No body gets perfected in mortality. That is what the resurrection is for.

 

That people who would have received the Gospel on earth will receive a celestial resurrection does not preclude those who chose not to receive it on earth to receive it in the spirit world and receive a celestial resurrection also. This is because there are none who came to earth with a preexisting disposition not to receive it--this is why we cannot say "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would not have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall not be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God." Our probation continues into the spirit world.

 

For example, I know people who rejected membership in the Church in this life but for whom the temple ordinances were done. Those ordinances contain the same promises and have the same potential for fulfillment for those souls as for me, and they can be realized even though they did not receive them until the spirit world. There is no disingenuity in the performance of those exalting ordinances, and they are not performed in vain except for the soul's rejection of them in the spirit world. But just because someone refused baptism in this life does not require him to refuse it by proxy when he is in the spirit world, and does not assign him to a lesser kingdom.

[stemelbow]

It’s not our decision what we should get, but the Lord has laid out the principles that He follows and that He invites and enables us to follow.

I think our minds will be blow, figuratively, when He lays out His judgments. We'll realize what we've been calling following in some cases might not be.

 

We only know that there are some who are valiant and some who are not, and that they reside in separate kingdoms. I think it is possible to recognize it when we see it in ourselves or others (when the Lord so reveals it), but not for those who are inclined to condemn others.

I guess.

 

When I bow and confess and when I embrace, I am doing two different things with two different levels of oneness with the Lord, both literally and figuratively.

When it comes to the LORD I'm not. Not sure how to bow and not embrace.

[stemelbow]

Everyone is offered the gift of exaltation.

So we say. But it also speculated that most will not be exalted. Perhaps without us knowing it, some are not so offered.

Some say no. They do so by making choices for other things they want more.

like what?

[stemelbow]

Have you never experienced indifference.

But I live in a world full of hate, and love. We're supposedly talking about a place without hate. Without hate, there is only love, it seems to me. We simply aren't there, though. We live with, and foster hate.

[CV75]

I think our minds will be blow, figuratively, when He lays out His judgments. We'll realize what we've been calling following in some cases might not be.

This is the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-46).

 

When it comes to the LORD I'm not. Not sure how to bow and not embrace.

The Lord distinguishes between the two. D&C 76:109-112 pertains to those who enter the telestial kingdom (“These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever …but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.”).

 

On the other hand, Moses 7:63 is about the righteous of the Lord’s people: “…we will receive them into our bosom, and they shall see us; and we will fall upon their necks, and they shall fall upon our necks, and we will kiss each other…” 

[thatjimguy]

Will we really have the advantage in the life to come?

 

We don't need an advantage. Remember the parable of the workers in the field. If everyone receives an equal share, regardless of the amount of work done, be joyous and grateful!

 

Also, like the guy who had his lost son come home after a world of sin, he was happy because he was back. It didn't matter how long or how hard the journey was.

 

I think the second we think about deserving the Celestial Kingdom, we start to slip away from it. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

Having not read the thread, I will simply state that I know what life is like without the gospel, and thankfully I know what life is like with the gospel. I'll gratefully and joyfully choose the latter, please ... and work tirelessly to try to extend the same blessings to anyone else who may wish to enjoy them.

[janderich]

No body gets perfected in mortality. That is what the resurrection is for.

I don't mean to say that they will be perfect in mortality. Simply that as spirits they must learn to rule their body while here on earth. By so doing the body will become subservient to the spirit and at the resurrection they will be glorified. This cannot happen in the spirit world. There is a reason we came to this earth and it was so that we could be tested in a way which we could not be as spirits.

 

That people who would have received the Gospel on earth will receive a celestial resurrection does not preclude those who chose not to receive it on earth to receive it in the spirit world and receive a celestial resurrection also. This is because there are none who came to earth with a preexisting disposition not to receive it--this is why we cannot say "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would not have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall not be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God." Our probation continues into the spirit world.

We certainly can say that if they would have rejected it here given sufficient opportunity, then they will not be heirs of the celestial kingdom. They may receive the gospel in the next life, and progress to a point. But they will not obtain the full blessings they could have received. The spirit world is not a do over. The test there is not equal to the test here.

 

For example, I know people who rejected membership in the Church in this life but for whom the temple ordinances were done. Those ordinances contain the same promises and have the same potential for fulfillment for those souls as for me, and they can be realized even though they did not receive them until the spirit world. There is no disingenuity in the performance of those exalting ordinances, and they are not performed in vain except for the soul's rejection of them in the spirit world. But just because someone refused baptism in this life does not require him to refuse it by proxy when he is in the spirit world, and does not assign him to a lesser kingdom.

Few ordinances will be performed in vain. But that does not mean that all people who finally accept them will be exalted. What of those who come forth in the second resurrection, did they accept the ordinances? If not, why then did they bow the knee to Christ? See, it is not just about accepting the gospel but it is about when we accept it (or when we would have accepted it given the opportunity). 

[mbh26]

Having not read the thread, I will simply state that I know what life is like without the gospel, and thankfully I know what life is like with the gospel. I'll gratefully and joyfully choose the latter, please ... and work tirelessly to try to extend the same blessings to anyone else who may wish to enjoy them.

 

Is that ultimately all there is to it?  What if someone finds that they are happier without the gospel in their lives?  

[CV75]

I don't mean to say that they will be perfect in mortality. Simply that as spirits they must learn to rule their body while here on earth. By so doing the body will become subservient to the spirit and at the resurrection they will be glorified. This cannot happen in the spirit world. There is a reason we came to this earth and it was so that we could be tested in a way which we could not be as spirits.

 

We certainly can say that if they would have rejected it here given sufficient opportunity, then they will not be heirs of the celestial kingdom. They may receive the gospel in the next life, and progress to a point. But they will not obtain the full blessings they could have received. The spirit world is not a do over. The test there is not equal to the test here.

 

Few ordinances will be performed in vain. But that does not mean that all people who finally accept them will be exalted. What of those who come forth in the second resurrection, did they accept the ordinances? If not, why then did they bow the knee to Christ? See, it is not just about accepting the gospel but it is about when we accept it (or when we would have accepted it given the opportunity). 

Grace is as operative in the spirit world (whether paradise or prison) as in this telestial world, so someone who did not learn to rule his body in this world still has the opportunity to prepare for a glorious resurrection. This is not a “do-over” since the accessibility to gospel principles is on a continuum from mortal birth until the resurrection. Some may assess that the odds of his receiving sufficient grace for exaltation are slim, and of course it is always better to repent and receive grace sooner than later, but with God all things are possible.

 

Those who refuse the ordinances still bow the knee and confess (D&C 76:109-112), but do so out of the humility of the punished or vanquished. On the other hand, of the joint heirs that did receive them, the Lord says, “…we will receive them into our bosom, and they shall see us; and we will fall upon their necks, and they shall fall upon our necks, and we will kiss each other…” (Moses 7:63). Big difference!

 

As an extension of the mortal probation, the spirit world allows an opportunity to hear the Gospel without the imposed encumbrances that once prevented someone from receiving it through no fault of his own.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Is that ultimately all there is to it?  What if someone finds that they are happier without the gospel in their lives?  

 

I personally can't imagine being happier without the Gift of the Holy Ghost, the priesthood, revelation, visions, temple blessings, the ministration of angels, healings, cleansing from sin, divine changes to my nature, or access to the words of living prophets, amongst the many miracles and blessings that characterise the Restored Gospel. But I realise that not everyone enjoys what I do, so anyone who feels 'unlucky' to have these things in his/her life can certainly make another choice.