Is The Holy Ghost A Child Of Heavenly Father?

[JLHPROF]

I have heard on good record that the Holy Ghost was once a dinosaur but that he evolved into a frog (white of course) and turned into smoke and mirrors.  This thread has been based completely around unfounded ideas that wack seminary teachers and High Priests groups have invented.    

 

In all fairness, my "unfounded idea" was not mine - it was popular in the decades following the martyrdom.  So popular that it had to be supressed.

[Tacenda]

I have heard on good record that the Holy Ghost was once a dinosaur but that he evolved into a frog (white of course) and turned into smoke and mirrors.  This thread has been based completely around unfounded ideas that wack seminary teachers and High Priests groups have invented.    

I like my answer best! 

[janderich]

Perhaps "opinion" is not the best word... That Joseph Smith was a prophet  is a tenet, or doctrine, of the Church, and I prayed to know if that was true and received a confirmation that this was true through personal revelation by the Spirit... the  Book of Mornon is a tenet of the Church and I prayed to know if it was true and received a confirmation of its truth through personal revelation by the Spirit.  These are formal tenets put forth by our leaders that I sought to confirm for myself.

The status of the Holy Ghost is ambiguous, with no formal position, or doctrine (revelation), of our Church leaders as a starting point... so if I pray to know what that status is, from among the numerous speculative possibilities like expressed in this thread, or from my own personal leaning, bias, opinion, preference, mental state, etc., is whatever answer I receive a reliable significant gospel truth... seems to me this is how some of the offshoot groups formed. 

Granted, there are some statements by past leaders that I do not agree with... for instance, the age of the earth... but these types of things don't affect me eternally.. nor does the possible identity or status of the Holy Ghost... so I can hold whatever personal opinion I want...

 

GG

Are you sure the identity and status of the Holy Ghost doesn't effect you eternally? I very much believe it does. I believe the reason this truth has not been revealed is not because it is unimportant but because it would be rejected, even by members of the church, not to mention the outcry and persecution from those not of our faith. During this time of gathering it would push people from the church and so it remains a mystery. The problem is that anything can become a mystery if we harden our hearts. In such an awful situation we may continue until we know nothing about the kingdom of God.

 

I would wager that during the millennium such knowledge will be common place.

[Garden Girl]

 

I would wager that during the millennium such knowledge will be common place.

 

Yes, I agree... my favorite scripture... D&C 101:32-33... "Yea, verily verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things..."

 

GG

[Rain]

I have heard on good record that the Holy Ghost was once a dinosaur but that he evolved into a frog (white of course) and turned into smoke and mirrors. This thread has been based completely around unfounded ideas that wack seminary teachers and High Priests groups have invented.

Lol. I should have known better than to post the question here. There seems to be quite a large knowledge base here so when I didn't know the answer I was thinking a few simple answers with quotes would be posted or someone stating nothing had been revealed.

It reminds me of the Gospel Essentials class I taught today. We have a few men that like to come into class and share deep doctrine/speculation. It makes it interesting trying to teach investigators and new members about the Book of Mormon, or what temple sealings or patriarchal blessings are while the specific men answer the question of, "what are the tribes of Israel?" With "In Russia the 10 lost tribes are preparing to come from the North out of a hole in the ground created because of the sin in the US where the constitution is hanging by a thread. They will have the gift of tongues and hitch rides with crazy, slacker Utahans listening to Mormon Stories and ask, speaking in tongues, about their food storage before disappearing from the car.

I think we need a board for Gospel Essentials question!

Edited July 21, 2014 by Rain

[Guest]

This came up in FHE last night. I had never thought of it before.  We know Christ is, but I'm not aware of anything that tells of the relationship between Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost.  Am I just missing it?

Not sure we have any teachings on the topic...spirits are formed form intelligences, not born like we are.

[DBMormon]

Lol. I should have known better than to post the question here. There seems to be quite a large knowledge base here so when I didn't know the answer I was thinking a few simple answers with quotes would be posted or someone stating nothing had been revealed.

It reminds me of the Gospel Essentials class I taught today. We have a few men that like to come into class and share deep doctrine/speculation. It makes it interesting trying to teach investigators and new members about the Book of Mormon, or what temple sealings or patriarchal blessings are while the specific men answer the question of, "what are the tribes of Israel?" With "In Russia the 10 lost tribes are preparing to come from the North out of a hole in the ground created because of the sin in the US where the constitution is hanging by a thread. They will have the gift of tongues and hitch rides with crazy, slacker Utahans listening to Mormon Stories and ask, speaking in tongues, about their food storage before disappearing from the car.

I think we need a board for Gospel Essentials question!

 

I am glad you didn't take offense.  I always worry when we speculate and put the idea across as truth.  It will always set up barriers to faith for others when they discover their framework no longer holds true.  If the Lord didn't say it or we don't have the right answer, I am hesitant to throw out speculative pseudo doctrines. 

If we didn't set so many false beliefs in motion, the faith crisis epidemic would likely have never happened.

[JLHPROF]

I am glad you didn't take offense.  I always worry when we speculate and put the idea across as truth.  It will always set up barriers to faith for others when they discover their framework no longer holds true.  If the Lord didn't say it or we don't have the right answer, I am hesitant to throw out speculative pseudo doctrines. 

If we didn't set so many false beliefs in motion, the faith crisis epidemic would likely have never happened.

 

I think this takes away the personal aspect of faith.  While I fully acknowledge the danger of spreading speculation as official doctrine, the right of the individual to believe any doctrine they like if they keep it to themselves or only discuss it with those who they trust can handle the idea is an important one.

The idea of official doctrines (or "creeds" if you will) leads to wonderous events like the inquisition, and Joseph Smith was completely against the idea of creeds that you would have to believe to be a Mormon.  But at the same time he put down false doctrine and dangerous speculation everywhere he could.

 

It's an interesting balance to walk.  Freedom to believe without "official" creeds vs Responsibility to put down false doctrine.

Edited July 22, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Storm Rider]

I think there is a difference between a prophet and an average person.  Although a prophets musings may cause us to reflect and search for truth, unless an actual revelation is received there remains no doctrine for the Church.

 

There is a degree of discomfort when speculation is taken to the masses and shared.  Frankly, it worries me that those not of our faith will read this Board and get the idea that we have a bunch of whackos in the Church; specifically that we are all total heretics that have so totally distorted the gospel of Jesus Christ that there is nothing to trust in our message. 

 

I appreciate the opportunity to speculate, but as you said above, we reserve our speculation for a proper audience.  The internet is not such a forum.  Church is not such a forum.  Each of us will know the proper forum the more we seek holiness and righteousness.

 

In closing, I have always felt that revelation is similar to a large beam of light that awaits all to touch it and learn truth and receive revelation.  Each of us has the ability to touch the surface or to plunge our hand in deeply to learn the mysteries of God.  We can know all things individually, but we are not empowered to speak on behalf of the Church as prophet, seer, and revelator.  I strongly support an individuals right to pursue all truth, but I urge restraint in sharing what we know or what has been revealed unless directed to do so by the witness of the Holy Spirit.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Maybe one of the posters on this forum will eventually be a GA or prophet. Who could it be?

[Buzzard]

When I highly speculative questions like this come up, I am always inspired by the words of one of the great Apostles of this dispensation, Elder Matthew Cowley. In response to the question if our Heavenly Father had been a Savior on another world, he said: "I don't know, and you can quote me". Words to live by, though if we did, the internet would be a lot less interesting.  

[ether_ore]

It is interesting to think about.  It is all speculation of course, but I find Adam being the Holy Ghost plausible if one considers the possibility that it is an office rather than a state of being or a name place holder; just as Jesus holds the office of Christ.  Here are some of the ideas floating in my head that lend to its plausibility: 

1. the Adam God theory.

2. the fact that Adam had a hand in the creation as one of the 'three' actors in that event.

3. that Adam and Michael are one and the same suggesting importance subordinate to and secondary immediately next to Christ.

4. in terms of 'office' mentioned above; just as Christ did not go to the wicked in spirit prison himself, but marshaled missionaries to go, Adam, as holding the keys to the office of Holy Ghost, could be marshaling spirits to perform the function of the holy ghost.

 

As I said, it's fun to speculate and that is all this is... speculation.

[Stargazer]

WOW! Never heard that, but it is FANTASTIC thinking-outside-the-box speculation.

 

That is so far outside the box it is located in a galaxy far, far away.

 

Actually, it is completely bonkers.

[JAHS]

It is interesting to think about.  It is all speculation of course, but I find Adam being the Holy Ghost plausible if one considers the possibility that it is an office rather than a state of being or a name place holder; just as Jesus holds the office of Christ.  Here are some of the ideas floating in my head that lend to its plausibility: 

1. the Adam God theory.

2. the fact that Adam had a hand in the creation as one of the 'three' actors in that event.

3. that Adam and Michael are one and the same suggesting importance subordinate to and secondary immediately next to Christ.

4. in terms of 'office' mentioned above; just as Christ did not go to the wicked in spirit prison himself, but marshaled missionaries to go, Adam, as holding the keys to the office of Holy Ghost, could be marshaling spirits to perform the function of the holy ghost.

 

As I said, it's fun to speculate and that is all this is... speculation.

This might work if Adam has not already been resurrected like some other important leaders in God's kingdom. (See D&C 130: 22)

[CMZ]

Where's the reference for Adam being resurrected?

[VideoGameJunkie]

CMZ, I believe all people who died on earth before Jesus' resurrection have been resurrected.

[CMZ]

Huh... interesting...

[Tsuzuki]

 

Heber C. Kimball taught: "Well, let me tell you, the Holy Ghost is a man; he is one of the sons of our Father and our God; and he is that man that stood next to Jesus Christ, just as I stand by brother Brigham" (JD 5:179).

The truth is in this statement. The next question we should ask is who stood next to Christ in the premortal world? From that answer a sincere honest seeker can chase the questions and answers all the way back until he knows. But I believe this answer will be received by the testimony of the spirit or not at all.

 

If you're going to say it's Lucifer, I might just have to bop you on the nose...

It's Lucifer.

 

And there's a Middle Eastern religion older than Christianity, and that's currently in the news (the Yezidi), that lends additional support to this.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1560714/The-Devil-worshippers-of-Iraq.html

 

"And who is Melek Taus? Halil looks slightly uncomfortable: 'We believe he is a proud angel, who rebelled and was thrown into Hell by God. He stayed there 40,000 years, until his tears quenched the fires of the underworld. Now he is reconciled to God.'

But is he good or evil? 'He is both. Like fire. Flames can cook but they can also burn. The world is good and bad.'

For a Yezidi to say they worship the Devil is understandably difficult. It is their reputation as infidels - as genuine 'devil worshippers' - that has led to their fierce persecution over time, especially by Muslims. Saddam Hussein intensified this suppression.

But some Yezidi do claim that Melek Taus is 'the Devil'. One hereditary leader of the Yezidi, Mir Hazem, said in 2005: 'I cannot say this word [Devil] out loud because it is sacred. It's the chief of angels. We believe in the chief of angels.'"

[JLHPROF]

It's Lucifer.

 

And there's a Middle Eastern religion older than Christianity, and that's currently in the news (the Yezidi), that lends additional support to this.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1560714/The-Devil-worshippers-of-Iraq.html

 

"And who is Melek Taus? Halil looks slightly uncomfortable: 'We believe he is a proud angel, who rebelled and was thrown into Hell by God. He stayed there 40,000 years, until his tears quenched the fires of the underworld. Now he is reconciled to God.'

But is he good or evil? 'He is both. Like fire. Flames can cook but they can also burn. The world is good and bad.'

For a Yezidi to say they worship the Devil is understandably difficult. It is their reputation as infidels - as genuine 'devil worshippers' - that has led to their fierce persecution over time, especially by Muslims. Saddam Hussein intensified this suppression.

But some Yezidi do claim that Melek Taus is 'the Devil'. One hereditary leader of the Yezidi, Mir Hazem, said in 2005: 'I cannot say this word [Devil] out loud because it is sacred. It's the chief of angels. We believe in the chief of angels.'"

 

You think it's Lucifer.  I think it's Joseph Smith.  But it's all just speculation until something is directly revealed by God.

[Tsuzuki]

You think it's Lucifer.  I think it's Joseph Smith.  But it's all just speculation until something is directly revealed by God.

Lucifer makes way more sense then Joseph Smith. The Holy Ghost's job as spiritual witness requires that He not have a body, and during the Restoration is arguably when He needed to do that job the most. I suppose you could say that Smith was astrally projecting every time someone needed a spiritual confirmation of something, but considering some of his mortal character flaws, that opens a whole other can of worms.

[JLHPROF]

Lucifer makes way more sense then Joseph Smith. The Holy Ghost's job as spiritual witness requires that He not have a body, and during the Restoration is arguably when He needed to do that job the most. I suppose you could say that Smith was astrally projecting every time someone needed a spiritual confirmation of something, but considering some of his mortal character flaws, that opens a whole other can of worms.

 

Actually, in the "sense" category I can think of no other being that we know of who has more adequately filled the role of "witness and testator" than Joseph Smith.  He is the only man ever to live on the earth that we have record of witnessing the Savior and Heavenly Father together.  He translated an additional witness of Christ.  He headed the final dispensation or witness of the gospel.

 

In my humble opinion the HG is either Joseph Smith or some being we don't know about yet.  I don't think any other being that we know of fits the office.  We must remember that in Mormon belief the Holy Ghost is also known as God the Witness or God the Testator.  Any speculation into his identity must take both sides of the person into account.

[Tsuzuki]

Actually, in the "sense" category I can think of no other being that we know of who has more adequately filled the role of "witness and testator" than Joseph Smith.  He is the only man ever to live on the earth that we have record of witnessing the Savior and Heavenly Father together.  He translated an additional witness of Christ.  He headed the final dispensation or witness of the gospel.

I don't recall him going around and directly burning people's bosoms, like it says in scripture the Holy Ghost is supposed to do.

 

In my humble opinion the HG is either Joseph Smith or some being we don't know about yet.  I don't think any other being that we know of fits the office.  We must remember that in Mormon belief the Holy Ghost is also known as God the Witness or God the Testator.  Any speculation into his identity must take both sides of the person into account.

Lucifer is mentioned by name in the Latin version of 2 Peter 1:19.

[JLHPROF]

Lucifer is mentioned by name in the Latin version of 2 Peter 1:19.

 

No, he's not.  That's a misread.  It's true the word Lucifer appears there, but it has nothing to do with Lucifer the personage.   It refers to the light bringers, the morning star, the day star.  And that's how it's translated more correctly in other bible versions.

 

Job 38:7 refers to many morning stars, so it is not a term that exclusively refers to the being that became the devil.  Christ himself is referred to as the Morning Star in Revelation.  Perhaps 2 Peter is referring to Christ since the verse also says:

 

⁹ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

 

And the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy.  I think 2nd Peter 1:19 refers to Christ, not the Holy Ghost and certainly not Lucifer despite the roman mistranslation of the greek.

[Tsuzuki]

No, he's not.  That's a misread.  It's true the word Lucifer appears there, but it has nothing to do with Lucifer the personage.   It refers to the light bringers, the morning star, the day star.  And that's how it's translated more correctly in other bible versions.

It literally means "light bearer," same as the original Greek "phōsphoros," and it's where Lucifer the personage got his name. It's not like he had a Latin (or Greek) name in the pre-existence. What's Adamic for "light bearer"?

 

Job 38:7 refers to many morning stars, so it is not a term that exclusively refers to the being that became the devil.  Christ himself is referred to as the Morning Star in Revelation.  Perhaps 2 Peter is referring to Christ since the verse also says:

 

⁹ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

 

And the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy.  I think 2nd Peter 1:19 refers to Christ, not the Holy Ghost and certainly not Lucifer despite the roman mistranslation of the greek.

"Lucifer" is a correct translation of the original Greek "phōsphoros," and they both mean "light bearer," not "morning star" or "day star," so it could very well refer to the Holy Ghost, rather than Christ. "Arise in your hearts" also fits the Holy Ghost's MO. 2 Peter 1:19 is also the only place in all of scripture where the word "phōsphoros" (which correctly translates to "lucifer") exists, so either Lucifer is the Holy Ghost, or you gotta stop calling him Lucifer.

[Guest]

You think it's Lucifer.  I think it's Joseph Smith.  But it's all just speculation until something is directly revealed by God.

As both are not true. I am wonder what is ever happening in this tread?