Guest Posted August 12, 2014 Posted August 12, 2014 Actually, in the "sense" category I can think of no other being that we know of who has more adequately filled the role of "witness and testator" than Joseph Smith.Wanted to say this to answer this sentence alone. First of all this in no way reflects the teaching of the Church and if It were ever taught that Joseph was a member of Godhead...no jet on earth could transport me fast enough from that doctrine! In fact no spaceship.
JLHPROF Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 As both are not true. I am wonder what is ever happening in this tread? Wanted to say this to answer this sentence alone. First of all this in no way reflects the teaching of the Church and if It were ever taught that Joseph was a member of Godhead...no jet on earth could transport me fast enough from that doctrine! In fact no spaceship. Oh really, how can you 100% say that a doctrine isn't true when the true answer has never been "officially" revealed. It's pretty arrogant to claim a revelation that something isn't true even though you don't know the truth. Nobody claimed any of this was church doctrine and specifically stated that these are our own speculations based on various quotes and scriptures. As far as Joseph being a member of the Godhead, I fail to see why that would be any more ridiculous than Christ being a member of the Godhead, or Adam being a member as was taught in earlier days (and some would say still in the temple).Personally I see an abundance of evidence that Joseph fits this role, but that is still just my opinion and I don't see why it should trouble you so.
Bikeemikey Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) Are you sure the identity and status of the Holy Ghost doesn't effect you eternally? I very much believe it does. I believe the reason this truth has not been revealed is not because it is unimportant but because it would be rejected, even by members of the church, not to mention the outcry and persecution from those not of our faith. During this time of gathering it would push people from the church and so it remains a mystery. The problem is that anything can become a mystery if we harden our hearts. In such an awful situation we may continue until we know nothing about the kingdom of God.I would wager that during the millennium such knowledge will be common place.Yeah because us religionists are so prone to rejecting crazy and unprovable ideas! I find this sort of excuse for our lack of knowledge very strange and highly underwhelming.Unless the answer is the Holy Ghost is Michael Jackson I think most of us would go along, after all we do accept the whole Jesus proposition. Edited August 13, 2014 by Bikeemikey
Tsuzuki Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 Oh really, how can you 100% say that a doctrine isn't true when the true answer has never been "officially" revealed. It's pretty arrogant to claim a revelation that something isn't true even though you don't know the truth. Nobody claimed any of this was church doctrine and specifically stated that these are our own speculations based on various quotes and scriptures. As far as Joseph being a member of the Godhead, I fail to see why that would be any more ridiculous than Christ being a member of the Godhead, or Adam being a member as was taught in earlier days (and some would say still in the temple).Personally I see an abundance of evidence that Joseph fits this role, but that is still just my opinion and I don't see why it should trouble you so.Was the Holy Ghost doing His Holy Ghost job while Joseph Smith was alive? If so, then Joseph Smith could not have been the Holy Ghost. Of the two, Lucifer makes way more sense.
Guest Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 Oh really, how can you 100% say that a doctrine isn't true when the true answer has never been "officially" revealed. It's pretty arrogant to claim a revelation that something isn't true even though you don't know the truth. Nobody claimed any of this was church doctrine and specifically stated that these are our own speculations based on various quotes and scriptures. As far as Joseph being a member of the Godhead, I fail to see why that would be any more ridiculous than Christ being a member of the Godhead, or Adam being a member as was taught in earlier days (and some would say still in the temple).Personally I see an abundance of evidence that Joseph fits this role, but that is still just my opinion and I don't see why it should trouble you so.It is not arrogance that I say this but confidence...so yes 100%, Joseph in not a member of the Godhead. As far as ever suggesting or comparing Joseph to Jesus Christ,,and sad thought indeed. I am just stunned the direction this thread is headed. It is an insult to all we know and to the teaching of Christ, and a manmade attempt to exalt Joseph. Why did Christ need to be perfect and the Holy Ghost who if Satan be allowed to bring horror to the world and Joseph being a sinner like any other man and Joseph listing his own words in scripture his many rebukes. Also I am required to praise God and acknowledge the Godhead and I will not do that for Satan (in any world) and Joseph Smith a man no better than myself.
Guest Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 Was the Holy Ghost doing His Holy Ghost job while Joseph Smith was alive? If so, then Joseph Smith could not have been the Holy Ghost. Of the two, Lucifer makes way more sense.We are talking about Lucifer who fought against Joseph and all the gospel...r i g h t.
JLHPROF Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) It is not arrogance that I say this but confidence...so yes 100%, Joseph in not a member of the Godhead. As far as ever suggesting or comparing Joseph to Jesus Christ,,and sad thought indeed. I am just stunned the direction this thread is headed. It is an insult to all we know and to the teaching of Christ, and a manmade attempt to exalt Joseph. Why did Christ need to be perfect and the Holy Ghost who if Satan be allowed to bring horror to the world and Joseph being a sinner like any other man and Joseph listing his own words in scripture his many rebukes. Also I am required to praise God and acknowledge the Godhead and I will not do that for Satan (in any world) and Joseph Smith a man no better than myself. And I disagree. The Holy Ghost is a personage, a child of our Heavenly Father. And as for "Joseph Smith a man no better than myself", that is so demonstrably false. It makes perfect sense that the man who did more for God's children than anyone except Christ would stand in the position next for him. I can't prove JS is the Holy Ghost, but it is either him or a person who has yet to be born. I find no other option in Mormonism and fail to see why it is so offensive. He IS the head of the last dispensation, not just a prophet like all the other prophets. I am sorry, unless you have a revelation or the personage of the Holy Ghost was revealed to you, you cannot 100% say that Joseph Smith isn't him. You have no more evidence, doctrine or proof against him in the role than I do for him in the role. And I STILL don't see why the notion offends you so....you sound like the Pharisees when Christ revealed who he was. Edited August 13, 2014 by JLHPROF
theplains Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 I can't prove JS is the Holy Ghost, but it is either him or a person who has yet to be born. If your version of Joseph Smith is the Holy Ghost, would that mean he is the third personagein the Godhead? Thanks,Jim
Guest Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 And I disagree. The Holy Ghost is a personage, a child of our Heavenly Father. And as for "Joseph Smith a man no better than myself", that is so demonstrably false.You know me this well? I am not sure if you are being judgmental, or to be offended?
JLHPROF Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 You know me this well? I am not sure if you are being judgmental, or to be offended? I am saying that Joseph Smith was the most perfect man ever to walk the earth except for the Savior (and possibly Father Adam). You say he is just a man like you. I don't know that I've ever met anyone at the level of Christ and the prophet Joseph. If you have really achieved such levels of perfection then I withdraw my judgement. But I won't allow people to label Joseph with anything less than top 10 men ever on the earth (3 Godhead/7 Dispensation Heads).
JLHPROF Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 If your version of Joseph Smith is the Holy Ghost, would that mean he is the third personagein the Godhead? Thanks,Jim Correct, God the Witness and Testator (see D&C 135 and other places).
Guest Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 I am saying that Joseph Smith was the most perfect man ever to walk the earth except for the Savior (and possibly Father Adam).Two things how did you arrive at this idea about Joseph, and could you give me a CFR?
Tsuzuki Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 We are talking about Lucifer who fought against Joseph and all the gospel...r i g h t.Fighting against the work like it's his job to test it. I'm saying it is.
JLHPROF Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Two things how did you arrive at this idea about Joseph, and could you give me a CFR? There is no official CFR because it's not official doctrine. But the quotes that lead me to these include: "Would to God, brethren, I could tell you WHO I am! Would to God I could tell you WHAT I know! But you would call it blasphemy and want to take my life! - (Joseph Smith - Life of Heber C. Kimball, p.333) “...the Holy Ghost is a man; he is one of the sons of our Father and our God; and he is that man that stood next to Jesus Christ.” (Heber C. Kimball, JD 5:179) “Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham’s record, are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator.” (Joseph Smith TPJS pg. 190) D&C 135:5 The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force. "The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has."-The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245 D&C 135:3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.
Tsuzuki Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 There is no official CFR because it's not official doctrine. But the quotes that lead me to these include: "Would to God, brethren, I could tell you WHO I am! Would to God I could tell you WHAT I know! But you would call it blasphemy and want to take my life! - (Joseph Smith - Life of Heber C. Kimball, p.333) “...the Holy Ghost is a man; he is one of the sons of our Father and our God; and he is that man that stood next to Jesus Christ.” (Heber C. Kimball, JD 5:179) “Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham’s record, are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator.” (Joseph Smith TPJS pg. 190) D&C 135:5 The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force. "The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has."-The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245 D&C 135:3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."- D&C 130:22 ("Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843.")
JLHPROF Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."- D&C 130:22 ("Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843.") Well, of course. What was he supposed to say? Oh BTW, I'm actually the Holy Ghost incarnate, now, please don't call it blasphemy and kill me. He also said ""The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has." What probationary state do all spirits have to go through? A mortal probation, like everyone else.What course did the Son take? Preached the gospel, restored the priesthood, performed a specific mission and was martyred.
Tsuzuki Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Well, of course. What was he supposed to say? Oh BTW, I'm actually the Holy Ghost incarnate, now, please don't call it blasphemy and kill me. He also said ""The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has." What probationary state do all spirits have to go through? A mortal probation, like everyone else.What course did the Son take? Preached the gospel, restored the priesthood, performed a specific mission and was martyred. The passage in D&C 130:22 makes perfect sense. Are you saying that the Holy Ghost was unable to dwell in anyone from 1805 to 1844?
JLHPROF Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 The passage in D&C 130:22 makes perfect sense. Are you saying that the Holy Ghost was unable to dwell in anyone from 1805 to 1844? Are you saying that nobody can fill in for what amounted to 1 hour in heaven time? I think Heavenly Father could have directed the outpouring of his own spirit for an hour or had someone fill in temporarily - Noah, Moses, John The Baptist, someone else. I mean, who fills in when the Bishop's out of town. I am sure the office was fill adequately while Joseph went through his probation as he referred to it.
Tsuzuki Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Are you saying that nobody can fill in for what amounted to 1 hour in heaven time? I think Heavenly Father could have directed the outpouring of his own spirit for an hour or had someone fill in temporarily - Noah, Moses, John The Baptist, someone else. I mean, who fills in when the Bishop's out of town. I am sure the office was fill adequately while Joseph went through his probation as he referred to it.So now you're saying that anyone could be the Holy Ghost.
JLHPROF Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 So now you're saying that anyone could be the Holy Ghost. Not anyone, but anyone qualified. Just as there are many Adams, many Christs, many Jehovahs, and many members of the Elohim. I mean, who forms the Godhead in the temple?
Tsuzuki Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Another point in favor of Lucifer as the Holy Ghost (other than the fact that he's mentioned by name in 2 Peter 1:19) is that he'll be bound during the Millennium, which is conveniently when we won't need the Holy Ghost because Christ will be here in person. Perhaps Lucifer being bound is just another way of saying that that's when he'll finally get his body.
Tsuzuki Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Just as there are many Adams, many Christs, many Jehovahs, and many members of the Elohim.But only one for this world.
JLHPROF Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 But only one for this world. Really? I say again, who is the Godhead in the temple? And who is in that third witness/testator position after Elohim and Jehovah?
Tsuzuki Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) Really? I say again, who is the Godhead in the temple? And who is in that third witness/testator position after Elohim and Jehovah?I haven't been through the temple, and if I had, I certainly wouldn't comment on it on a public forum, but in all my years growing up in the church, the Holy Ghost has only been one person. Edited August 14, 2014 by Tsuzuki
Guest Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Fighting against the work like it's his job to test it. I'm saying it is.Then you are wrong and relying on opinion. Santa is a loser and a beggar and certainly not the Holy Ghost. Saying so is blasphemy pure and simple. Also what I say in this post is NOT opinion, but gospel. So please, CFR or stop.
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